ORRA Notices

Discuss all kind of nice gadgets and two way radios here.
Locked
User avatar
Family_Dog
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 12647
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 10:09 am
Town: Klerksdorp
Vehicle: Hilux DC SFA, Hilux 2.7 DC, Hilux 2.7 SC, Prado 95 VX
Real Name: Eric
ORRA Call Sign: HC101
Location: Klerksdorp, NW
Contact:

Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:56 am

Although mainly of interest to Club Members, I am posting any notices received from ORRA here for general perusal.

**********************

Guys here is an email from ORRA:


"Our current ICASA VHF licence allocation is depleted.

We have applied for more licences. This is a timely process and we will attend to all applications as soon as we have received licences from ICASA."

This means that ORRA will not be able to process any further radio licences until ICASA has granted them an extension to their existing licence. The process might take a couple of weeks but it is still far quicker than applying directly to ICASA for a private licence which takes anything from 6 - 10 weeks.


So go ahead and get your applications in, but please be patient.



-F_D
Image

White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
Bull Dog: 1987 4Y-EFI 2.2 DC 4x4
Pra Dog: 1998 Prado VX 3.4
Hound Dog: 2000 2.7i SC 4x4


One Staffie, One Jack Russell, One Ring Neck Screecher, 17 Fish of questionable heritage


Image

User avatar
jagermeister
Low Range 4WD
Low Range 4WD
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:45 pm
Town: Postmasburg Kalahari
Vehicle: 2012 Hilux D4D D/Cab 4x4 XGS Full suspension Long range tank Onca Front and Rear Bumpers 12000 Winch Roof Rack Light Bars Snorkel Rock Sliders
Real Name: Shawn
ORRA Call Sign: X 90

Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:52 pm

:dance1: :dance1: he he he got mine in time :dance1: :dance1:
ImageImageImageImageImage

Maplotter
High Range 4WD
High Range 4WD
Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:10 am
Town: Potchefstroom
Vehicle: Hilux DCab
Real Name: Mike

Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:21 pm

Forgive me but I am mildly confused.

How can an allocation of lisences be used up?

Citizen band has a number of frequencies allocated, and thousands if not millions of operators use those frequencies.

Amateur radio has a number of frequencies allocated and thousands(in South Africa) and Millions around the world use those frequencies.

The aviation industry has a number of frequencies allocated and thousands (in South Africa) and millions around the world use those frequencies.

Yet, a couple of guys with 4x4's have used up all the lisences? What on earth? As far as i know, a frequency is allocated and then we all get a lisence to use that drequency, which is limited to a local area in range. Its not like every guy with a 4x4 wants his own unique frequency (or is it?), cos if he did, he would only ever be able to talk to himself. If 10 guys had 10 different frequencies, there would be no pint in having radios.

Could someone explain this? Doesnt make sense.

A frequency is allocated, and yet for some obscure reason, 4x4 radio operators are not allowed to know what the frequency is. CB users, Avaition users, Block watches, marine users and ham operators all know what frequencies they are using, yet the offroad community is the only group of operators that I have come accross that are not allowed to know what frequencies they are using. Evidently this is confidential. I cannot for the life of me understand why?

And then to say that the lisences are used up? What the heck? How do you possibly use up the lisences? Who allocated a limited number in the first place? And why?

So, why does radio lisencing for off road purposes have to be different to every other organisation and group that uses radios? I am a member of Marnet, membership comes with an automatic lisence allocation from Marnet. You pay, and your ID and GPS are forwarded to Marnet, and then the payment is forwarded to ICASA, there is no such thing as running out of lisences and there are thousands of operators in the Potch area, not to mention the tens of thousands around the country. Oh yes, and we all know all the frequencies ... its not some huge secret.

Something does not make sense,

User avatar
CasKru
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 24213
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:52 am
Town: Benoni
Vehicle: '94 Hilux Raider 2.4i (22RE) DC 4x4
Real Name: Cassie
ORRA Call Sign: B15
Location: Rynfield
Contact:

Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:41 pm

For quick answers go read at http://www.orra.co.za" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
To God be the glory

User avatar
Family_Dog
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 12647
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 10:09 am
Town: Klerksdorp
Vehicle: Hilux DC SFA, Hilux 2.7 DC, Hilux 2.7 SC, Prado 95 VX
Real Name: Eric
ORRA Call Sign: HC101
Location: Klerksdorp, NW
Contact:

Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:56 pm

Think about it...

You go to the bottle store and buy a case of beers, that's 24. Over time, you drink all the beers, all 24 of them. Now there are no beers left. You have run out of beers, your allocation is klaar!

Now, you need to go back to the bottle store and buy some more. Only, in the real word, you live about three weeks away from any means of getting those beers, it will take three weeks to get them to you. Your allocation has finished and new beers will only be made available to you in some three weeks.

That's it in a nutshell. While there are, of course, only a limited number of frequencies (in our case, ORRA uses three VHF frequencies), these have to be paid for and ICASA charges ORRA for 6 months minimum. Now, seeing that their year end is end March, would you, as ORRA, apply and pay for a further.... hmmm... let's say 500 licences for the sake of a few weeks? Not likely, ORRA will wait those few weeks out before renewing and applying for those 500 extra licences, which become valid from the first of April, the beginning of the ICASA financial year.

In actual fact, the licences have been applied for but with effect only from April 1st. Operating without the licences is in contravention of International Law, let alone ICASA rulings. ICASA just happen to be the Regulatory Body controlling the airwaves in South Africa, such as the FCC is in the USA.

Finally, every licenced user knows what his frequency is or otherwise he would not legally be able to operate the radio equipment. In your case with Marnet, the Marnet (no longer in existence, by the way) are the licencee and you in turn apply for permission to make use of the Marnet and/or Civil Defence frequencies. Such permission is not granted unless you are registered with the local Civil Defence unit and you need to provide proof of this before ICASA will grant you a licence. You in turn pay your annual licence fees directly to ICASA, whereas ORRA pays all the fees itself and simply administers the members on behalf of ICASA, as per the agreement that ORRA has with ICASA.


-F_D
Image

White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
Bull Dog: 1987 4Y-EFI 2.2 DC 4x4
Pra Dog: 1998 Prado VX 3.4
Hound Dog: 2000 2.7i SC 4x4


One Staffie, One Jack Russell, One Ring Neck Screecher, 17 Fish of questionable heritage


Image

Maplotter
High Range 4WD
High Range 4WD
Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:10 am
Town: Potchefstroom
Vehicle: Hilux DCab
Real Name: Mike

Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:09 pm

OK, so the admin system is different. It just seemed unusual that there are a limited number of lisences, as there are no limits to the number of lisences that are issued in other sphere's of radio operation.

I am not arguing the matter, just thinking aloud, in general discussion. The way I understand radio systems to work, and it has been my trade for 30+ years, is that an organsation will lisence a frequency for its use. Albeit a blockwatch, commercial, military, police or whatever. That individual frequency or group of frequencies is lisenced and remains the property of that organisation. For this, a lisence fee is paid, and a limit is placed ... ie, you can have so many fequencies from x to y mhz. Here you have a limit.

Now you get to the users. Once I have bought and paid for the lisence to use the frequency, I can, within my organisation, allocate radios freely and without a lisence per radio. I have paid for my frequency, and I am now free to use it with whatever quantity and types of equipment as I see fit without needing a lisence per radio.

There are however various scenarios.

There are the lisence free citizen bands where I can go and buy a radio and use it as I see fit without any form of lisencing at all. These are on the FRS (Family Radio Service) and GMRS (General Mobile Radio Service), and certain others like Model Aircraft radio control, toys, medical and industrial monitoring and control, Marine, Wireless computer networks, Security Audio/Video, telemetry and so on.

There are the lisenced citizen bands where you need to pay for a lisence and are allocated a callsign. ZRAA5359. The operator is lisenced and may operate any equipment on the band. There is no limit to the number of people that may acquire lisences on this system

There are the single band lisences where each transmitter is allocated a callsign (like Aircraft) and the transmitter is lisenced ZS ABC

There are the multi band lisences where you pay a lisence fee and and you may use any of the allocated bands, on any equipment with a single callsign that is allocated to the operator. ZS 6 ABC

So, in some cases, there is no lisence, some cases the frequency is lisenced, some cases the equipment is lisenced, and some cases the operator is lisenced.

But I have never heard of a case where there is a limit on the number of lisences. Even in the case where specific frequencies are lisenced, the spectrum is usually broad enough to cater for all of the needs of operators in the area without overlap.

It does on occasion happen that there are shared frequencies. In this case, radios are used that have group or selective caller ID. This means that individuals or groups can have private conversations on the same frequency, and busy frequency lockout prevents any two users from talking over each other. Frequency in use is also indicated by a red/green LED, which says the channel is clear or in use by another group.

There are enough hardware systems and the radio procedures are robust enough to cater for extremely large numbers of people on any given band, frequency or channel.

But in all honesty, I have never heard of the number of operators on a frequency, channel or service being subject to limits, which is what propted my question. You see, operators are not limited like beers (hehe) in all the scenarios listed above, and I find it unusual that there should be a limit to the number of lisences that are offered to the off road fraternity, when one does not find this limitation in any other group of lisencees or operators.

User avatar
Family_Dog
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 12647
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 10:09 am
Town: Klerksdorp
Vehicle: Hilux DC SFA, Hilux 2.7 DC, Hilux 2.7 SC, Prado 95 VX
Real Name: Eric
ORRA Call Sign: HC101
Location: Klerksdorp, NW
Contact:

Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:28 pm

Now you get to the users. Once I have bought and paid for the lisence to use the frequency, I can, within my organisation, allocate radios freely and without a licence per radio. I have paid for my frequency, and I am now free to use it with whatever quantity and types of equipment as I see fit without needing a lisence per radio.

Absolutely not.You require each and every radio to be licenced and if there is more than one frequency on each radio, you pay additionally for that too. ICASA considers a frequency to be fully utilised when there are a minimum of 100 radios on that frequency within a given area, in your case 50km around your base in Potch. The radios you use must also be type-approved by ICASA, you may not, for example, import radios from overseas for this purpose. This can, and does, lead to confiscation of the equipment as well as possible fines or imprisonment.

There are the lisence free citizen bands where I can go and buy a radio and use it as I see fit without any form of lisencing at all. These are on the FRS (Family Radio Service) and GMRS (General Mobile Radio Service), and certain others like Model Aircraft radio control, toys, medical and industrial monitoring and control, Marine, Wireless computer networks, Security Audio/Video, telemetry and so on.
Within certain limits, yes. But the equipment still has to be ICASA type-approved and the licence-free radios may not exceed 500mW in power and once again are only approved for those frequencies as set aside by ICASA. This does not necessarily mean that bringing your own radios in from o/seas is OK, it is not. They make use of different L/F bands there with different channel spacing.
There are the lisenced citizen bands where you need to pay for a lisence and are allocated a callsign. ZRAA5359. The operator is lisenced and may operate any equipment on the band. There is no limit to the number of people that may acquire lisences on this system

There are the single band lisences where each transmitter is allocated a callsign (like Aircraft) and the transmitter is lisenced ZS ABC

There are the multi band lisences where you pay a lisence fee and and you may use any of the allocated bands, on any equipment with a single callsign that is allocated to the operator. ZS 6 ABC

So, in some cases, there is no lisence, some cases the frequency is lisenced, some cases the equipment is lisenced, and some cases the operator is lisenced.
All of this is outside the scope of ORRA. ORRA utilises the Commercial frequency band, it is illegal to listen or even possess aircraft radios unless you are a pilot. The rules for Radio Amateurs are different as you say, and there the person is licenced, irrespective of the number of radios that he has. But those radios may not transmit on commercial frequencies, only for the dedicated radio amateur frequencies.
But I have never heard of a case where there is a limit on the number of lisences. Even in the case where specific frequencies are lisenced, the spectrum is usually broad enough to cater for all of the needs of operators in the area without overlap.
The problem, as I tried to explain above, lies in how many users of that frequency were paid for by ORRA. If ORRA purchased (registered) 500 users, then they may not put 501+ users on the system, at least not until they have paid their required fees.
[It does on occasion happen that there are shared frequencies. In this case, radios are used that have group or selective caller ID. This means that individuals or groups can have private conversations on the same frequency, and busy frequency lockout prevents any two users from talking over each other. Frequency in use is also indicated by a red/green LED, which says the channel is clear or in use by another group.]
We use this in the ORRA channels, but be aware that in spite of one group of radio users having selective calling or CTCSS while another group on the same frequency does not, only the one party may talk at one time, not both parties simultaneously. This will change once Digital radios become the norm.
[There are enough hardware systems and the radio procedures are robust enough to cater for extremely large numbers of people on any given band, frequency or channel.

But in all honesty, I have never heard of the number of operators on a frequency, channel or service being subject to limits, which is what propted my question. You see, operators are not limited like beers (hehe) in all the scenarios listed above, and I find it unusual that there should be a limit to the number of lisences that are offered to the off road fraternity, when one does not find this limitation in any other group of lisencees or operators.
OK, once more, the system is regulated by how many licences the user (or ORRA) have actually requested and paid for, not what "the system" can offer them. Back to beers again: You can not pay for one case of 24 beers but walk out with two cases (48 beers). You have not paid for them, they are not yours to keep.

Mike, please read through the radio bits and pieces on the forum, unfortunately I deleted the original ICASA licensing scenario that was there prior to us becoming affiliated to ORRA. The deleted text gave examples on how to apply for ICASA licences but it is no longer required here and so I wiped it.



Please note that this topic is now closed. The idea of this thread is to post notices as issued by ORRA, not to enter into discussions why they are electing to go this route.



-F_D
Image

White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
Bull Dog: 1987 4Y-EFI 2.2 DC 4x4
Pra Dog: 1998 Prado VX 3.4
Hound Dog: 2000 2.7i SC 4x4


One Staffie, One Jack Russell, One Ring Neck Screecher, 17 Fish of questionable heritage


Image

Locked

Return to “Electronic Gadgets and Radios”

  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users