Rated recovery hooks

[Ali3n]

So after I became so upset with the ORRU scruiteneers at this weekend’s AAWDC fun day I decided to put this topic up for discussion.

These hooks!

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These hooks were not allowed. All of ours on Riana's Jeep were taped as well as Shaun’s and the luxes which come standard with them in front. They are all rated hooks with rated blots and bolted directly to the vehicle chassis. I asked them why and the answer that was given to me was because a few years ago at one of the AAWDC's events one broke loose and someone was severely hurt.

Now I was not at this event as mentioned so is there anyone who can shed some light as to the facts around what happened?

Now my feelings towards these recovery hooks are as such. They are rated and fitted with the correct bolts and exactly the way they should be. We pay R150+ per hook which is sold at ALL 4x4 suppliers. Why are they sold if they are dangerous?

Now please don't take this in the wrong manner as I am talking about what I know but ANY recovery gear can fail. These hooks, if not used correctly can fail. Like a chain, it is only as strong as its weakest link. I ALWAYS use a bridal; it reduces the strain on each recovery point. Not saying it won’t fail but reduces the strain.

Now was the recovery point fitted correctly? Fitted with rated bolts? I don’t know but was ALL safety precautions taken to ensure no one got hurt? Seems not. Were all spectators at a safe distance? Was something thrown over the strap used? In this case I understand it to have been a Snatch strap as per the scruiteneer. Was that the correct strap to have been used? I can go on and on about this but what is getting to me is the fact that these recovery hooks have been given the blame and now we go out and WASTE our money thinking they are correct when in fact they are not.

Surprisingly, homemade recovery hooks which were fitted with rated bolts passed scruiteneering. How can something "rated" fail but something "Un-rated" pass? Does not make sense to me. Please help me out here.

I truly feel sorry for the person who got hurt and hope they have recovered from their injuries.

[MOFASA]

Surprisingly, homemade recovery hooks which were fitted with rated bolts passed scruiteneering. How can something "rated" fail but something "Un-rated" pass? Does not make sense to me. Please help me out here.

Makes no sense to me either.......
Those hooks are used on some of the serious 4x4 competition vehicles.
That just goes to show 1 accident and the wrong thing is blamed now it will never be good enough.....
Even though they spent plenty money and time in testing it to pass......

[GeorgeJvR]

Doesn't make sence to me.
I'll rather use someting rated.

[Cleaner]

Ignorant Marshals - That is all I can say.

In light of their argument, all recovery straps, vehicles, bumbers, hooks, shackles, gloves, cable ties, and the sticks used in a recovery that went wrong, must then be unsafe and should not be used in recoveries. Regardless of their quality and rating.

There is nothing wrong with your recoveries hooks. Used safely and correctly, they will be fine in any recovery.

Like you say, I would love to get the full story on the incident they based their judgement on. I hope they also penalize the vehicle types involved in that incident, as that would then be fair use of judgement. This is the problem with frame of reference and the lack of ability to judge outside your own knowledge scope.

Good luck in your search for answers, apart from 42, I don't have any other for you.

[CasKru]

Francisco... my feelings exactly. I also wanted to tell the ORRU guys where they could get off. With a rated recovery point you know what the point can handle. And on the day no snatch recoveries were allowed. So, according to my knowledge with my vehicle weighing in under 2 tons, why were they deemed unsafe?

[Thunder02]

Was very shocked to hear they are not allowed,due to an accident.
I asked the Marshall why,"one broke during recovery"
Next question was,how about a winch?
He could not answer me,I've seen cables snap,why where they not banned

[CasKru]

I'm speaking under correction but in that case, the hook itself did not fail but the bolts they used to mount it onto the vehicle. Also speaking under correction but I believe they didn't use the appropriate rating (not an 8.8 but maybe a 4.4)

[GeorgeJvR]

I would like to hear what the Marchalls have to say, if only they new about this post.........

any one who can send them a little friendly invite,
This is not to gain points for a certain event but to get the facts straight on these hooks.

[Ali3n]

I'm speaking under correction but in that case, the hook itself did not fail but the bolts they used to mount it onto the vehicle. Also speaking under correction but I believe they didn't use the appropriate rating (not an 8.8 but maybe a 4.4)

Ed Zachery!!!!

I was not upset about them not being allowed (event though there were no places where I could see us using them) but about the reasons behind them not allowing them and that they could not justify their answers with FACTS. Rafs told me to let the discussion I was having with the scruiteneer go as I was just getting more and more upset. :evil:

I recall that prior to RFAD they also didn't allow them but after we supplied them the facts about them being rated and the bolts also being rated they allowed them. They were open minded about it. There was just no way of discussing it with these guys, making me think that in some ways they themselves did not know how to use them correctly and when conftonted about it they did not know how to respond.

[CasKru]

Come to think of it, a 25mm bow shackle is rated at 6.5 tonnes. My guess is the most common shackle used is the 19mm one which is only rated 3.25 tonnes. I know one does not use the shackles with these hooks but my argument is, why don't they allow these hooks ratted at 5 tonnes if they allow almost any size bow shackle with a lesser rated strength?

[Ali3n]

I would like to hear what the Marchalls have to say, if only they new about this post.........

any one who can send them a little friendly invite,
This is not to gain pointsfor a certain event but to get the facts straight on these hooks.

At least it had no infulence on our scores.

This was the requirements - "All participating vehicles shall have its own basic rated recovery kit and shall have a rated recovery
points in the front and at the rear of the vehicle"
No mention of rated recovery hooks not being allowed.

[Ali3n]

Come to think of it, a 25mm bow shackle is rated at 6.5 tonnes. My guess is the most common shackle used is the 19mm one which is only rated 3.25 tonnes. I know one does not use the shackles with these hooks but my argument is, why don't they allow these hooks ratted at 5 tonnes if they allow almost any size bow shackle with a lesser rated strength?

ED ZACHERY!!! :evil:

I am going to try and find out who was the chief scruiteneer and see if he would be willing to comment here on the forum on these questions we have raised.

[Thunder02]

The only positive thing about the situation is that it applied to everybody

[GeorgeJvR]

Thats is exactly why i feel we should get a Marshall involved with the discussion

After all Hiluxes don't need free points

[CasKru]

The only positive thing about the situation is that it applied to everybody

True.... and luckily had no influence on the rest of the day's results

[Thunder02]

The only positive thing about the situation is that it applied to everybody

True.... and luckily had no influence on the rest of the day's results

,but we still need an answer

[ThysdJ]

Anybody who reasons that those rated hooks are not appropriate should have their heads read. If I understand their argument any home made ARB style bumper with recovery loops will be suitable, even if it is attached to the chassis with 6mm gutterbolts? That is if they didnt see the gutterbolts. Now that will do a lot of lekker damage when it flies into the crowd. Like a weapon of mass destruction compared to a sniper's bullet. Ignorant marshals, I agree. Scrutineering should go further than just look and feel, they must also ascertain what hardware is used to attach any recovery point. When fitted with the correct hardware you will have to go a long way to find anything safer than those hooks. We have been using those hooks on several vehicles for many years and we do some serious recoveries on them and we have not had a single failure yet.

The incident they refer to happened in 2010 and a person was indeed seriously injured, but the entire hook broke off the vehicle. It was not attached with the proper hardware. There is a thread about the incident on the 4x4community forum. http://4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php?t=66653" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[CasKru]

The person checking my vehicle did at least check that the towbar and bull bar were attached with rated bolts (8.8). What did how ever upset me more is that they said they would have accepted a pin type towbar. Now according to me this is the weakest point on the towbar where as the hooks were directly in-line with the chassis and mounted with 8.8 bolts... something does not compute

[Ali3n]

I found the thread on the community forum thanks to the oom thys.
http://4x4community.co.za/forum/showthr ... t=mudzilla" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I must say it has just made me even more upset.
Bolts sheered off possibly due to unrated bolts being used.
Snatch strap used without something over the strap such as sand bag or so on to take the backlash in the event of failiure.
Crowd was not asked to stand back.

Due to stupitidy of the people involved in the recovery the hooks get blamed. :evil:

Don't want to open old wounds but it was not the recovery hooks fault. It was the opperators. :evil:

It is a bunch of BS if you ask me.

[LouisZ]

I can't really agree that those hooks with the rating can't be allowed. They been tested to a specification. If it break it will be to a point where it was incorrectly installed, lets say the OE bolts was not used. Or it tear out of the chassis and so on. Can be old?

Homemade unrated points, been accepted.? Strange, but not impossible. Depends on how it is made and applied. I think one really have to have knowledge just before one can say yea or nay.

In any case, with any recovery. Get all the people as far as possible away from the situation. I can think it is better this way to let all spectators be as far as they can. Remember, any type of equipment, do not matter how good they are CAN FAIL.

Hence try to get people out of the idea that Recovery is a spectator event. I know is difficult, but it is Safety wise better. Any Marshall will apply this if there is just a remote chance of injury.

I say clear the area as well as you can before you attempt a Recovery, especially Snatching/ Winching. AND PLEASE, STAY AWAY FROM ASKING IF YOU CAN SNATCH ON THE REAR TOWBAR HOOK!!!!!

[LouisZ]

I Quote fom that link

"3) Upon investigation, we later in the day found that the recovery hooks on this specific vehicle were fitted with standard "Mica hardware" unrated stainless steel bolts, not high tensile items at all. There was no way these bolts would hold up to the recovery process under those conditions.
4) When we were inspecting the vehicle later in the day, we were reprimanded by some spectators (I am not sure if it was the vehicle owner) as to whey we were looking at the vehicle because the hooks were on with "the propper stainless steel bolts, so what's the problem ... ?".

So??? Pls look at the rating on the bolts. Galvinated bolts is not always High Tensile.

[MOFASA]

I know this is slightly off topic....

I think we as the Hilux club should get a recovery course together for all members at a good rate and have this course at least once a year....
It may help with learning the right way to do a safe recovery (well as safe as possible) as well as the implications of something going wrong.
It will also teach people the risk and danger involved and maybe save a horid situation in the future......

All in favour say "I"

[JEEPIE]

I know this is slightly off topic....

I think we as the Hilux club should get a recovery course together for all members at a good rate and have this course at least once a year....
It may help with learning the right way to do a safe recovery (well as safe as possible) as well as the implications of something going wrong.
It will also teach people the risk and danger involved and maybe save a horid situation in the future......

All in favour say "I"

busy negotiating that at the moment
had enough on saterday

[MOFASA]

I know this is slightly off topic....

I think we as the Hilux club should get a recovery course together for all members at a good rate and have this course at least once a year....
It may help with learning the right way to do a safe recovery (well as safe as possible) as well as the implications of something going wrong.
It will also teach people the risk and danger involved and maybe save a horid situation in the future......

All in favour say "I"

busy negotiating that at the moment
had enough on saterday

Count me in

[ThysdJ]

We (Team Offroad) can put something like that together in the Cape. Hell we can even export it to Gauteng as well. We can get somebody like Shaun (Jeepie) to present it to you guys up there. I will speak to Anton as soon as we are both in the same country again midway thru Sept to get the proper course material together.

We can ask guys like Cassie and Shaun Jeepie to present the training in Gauteng..

[JEEPIE]

We (Team Offroad) can put something like that together in the Cape. Hell we can even export it to Gauteng as well. We can get somebody like Shaun (Jeepie) to present it to you guys up there. I will speak to Anton as soon as we are both in the same country again midway thru Sept to get the proper course material together.

We can ask guys like Cassie and Shaun Jeepie to present the training in Gauteng..

high 5 for that one

[CasKru]

Here you go Shaun... ⁵

[Gunta]

I'm in too.

[Pote]

Count me in also.
Would also like to bring the wife along so that she also kows what to da and expect...

[Stef]

I don't think the scrutineers make the rules, and with a hard & fast rule like "no hooks" there isn't much room for discretion, but agree with the sentiments above. Not a fan of the hooks and never used them, but can't fault them either. Rated is rated and tested is tested.

Hence with the 2010 event at RDW I used the existing holes in my LTD bumper, had bushes lathed & welded in that take 4.75 T rated shackles. Did same to towbar. It passed. Pics are on the forum somewhere.

Can't recall if hooks were passed then, but the shop made pointy framework jobbie in front of me (and a nice piece of engineering at that) didn't. If I recall our 9m strap in the team didn't pass, had to be 10m and "securetech" labelled, or something finicky. Cost a few points, but it wasn't banned.

I presume our calls then for upfront requirements & specs have not been heeded, which is a pity.


PS Gunta...long time hey! You were also there at the RDW event, maybe you can recall better than me....

[Hiluxfan_111]

I agree. These hooks are rated and probably stronger than some home made recovery points.
The problem with this design though is that IF the bolts should fail, there is nothing attaching the hook to the strap or cable. The hook will detach and it will become a projectile just like in a catapult. Taking all the precautions will help some but there is still a risk.
I have always used the standard ones and never had a failure.

[Gunta]

There is a metal flap on the hook securing it to the strap so if it broke off the bolts it would be the same as a shackle flying through the air.

[Hiluxfan_111]

Nope. That metal strip is also held on by the bolts. Take the bolts away and you have two pieces.

[Gunta]

Yup I suppose you are right when the bolts break it will come apart.

[Ali3n]

I agree with you Roelof that should the bolts fail then the hook will become a projectile but there are proper ways of using them safely.

Firstly use RATED bolts to attach them directly to the CHASSIS. If attached to a bumper, ALL bolts MUST be rated.

Secondly you should use rated lanyards which is attached to the recovery rope at both ends and attached to both vehicles on places not on the recovery hooks to prevent the hook from flying through the air should it fail.

Third use a bridal where ever possible to reduce the load on the hooks.

Fourth, coil a strap, use a sand bag or even a few shirts and so on around the recovery strap so it drops to the ground in the event it fails.

This is just what I beleive the safest way is. I could be wrong and am open for correction.

[BLOUBULLTROKKIE]

Hi I was at 1 off the forms events (beginers @ ladiesday) mofasa told and chowed us what 2 do and not 2 do did the safty subject showed us the recuvery points what ropes to use (I lurend a lot that day) and he told us to get out and check an obsticle befor driving it and when it came to the obsticle we dint do what he said (most of us me included) my point is why blame someting when some 1 is to be blamed .the hook dint brake the bolt did y blame the hook ?

[LouisZ]

Just some interesting facts;

An M12 Bolt 8.8 grade with a thread pitch of 1.5 has a bolt ultimate strength of +/- 70500N(Newton) that is 7.188 Tons. shear at +/- 4.313Tons.

Check this too:

http://www.tech.plymouth.ac.uk/sme/desnotes/boltb.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[CasKru]

To be honest, I've never thought of what happens with the hook if the bolts should fail. In my mind they would stay attached to the strap but they won't. So they can travel much greater distances and be even more dangerous. For this reason I now see the dangers in using a hook instead of another recovery point where one uses a shackle. If that point fails, the metal objects stay attached to the strap / rope.

Yes you have to use a lanyard but by the time the lanyard's slack has been taken up and is restraining the rope / strap, the hook could have already been dislodge and is still travelling at the initial speed.

[Ali3n]

Yes I do agree fully with that as well but then one can once the strap has been put in place in the hook use ducktape thus preventing the hook from falling out of the strap should it fail. Even if the bolts sheer off then the plate will still be in place?

[GeorgeJvR]

Cassie you made me rethink the use of those hooks

[CasKru]

Cassie you made me rethink the use of those hooks

Self George... daar het skielik vir myself 'n rooi liggie aan gegaan toe die scenario nou vorendag kom...

Yes I do agree fully with that as well but then one can once the strap has been put in place in the hook use ducktape thus preventing the hook from falling out of the strap should it fail. Even if the bolts sheer off then the plate will still be in place?

Kan seker werk.

Die feit bly nog bestaan dat hulle rated is en as hulle op die regte manier vas is moet hulle aanvaar word as recovery punte tot en met hulle rated bedrag.

[Jaans]

I was at the RDW day when it happened. I was competing the day so I saw part of the recovery and I told my wife and kid we must get far away because what is going on during the recovery is not good. The obstacle was a field of tyres planned into the ground and the cruiser got stuck on a tyre. The last part of the recovery I saw they were using a 4x4 tractor to recover the cruiser and you could see all four tyre of the tracker struggling to get traction. In general the recovery equipment we use are not made to be used for tractors. They have large amount of traction and mass and that is what they were designed for. They have pulled the cruiser in different directions over and over and at one stage something must go. If they used a normal 4x4 to do the recovery the hook would not have failed because it cannot generate the forces a big tractor can. They also did not pull inline of the hook strongest direction. Therefore you generate more bending moments on the bolt that will cause them to fail quicker.

According to me the bolts will always fail before the hook because although the hook is rated for 1000lb the will be a 3 or 4 safety factor on it at least.

this is my observation of the day.

[LouisZ]

Mens moet maar by die stappe bly om te recover. Soos jy se Johannes daar sal iets breek as dit so aangaan. Dan ook as die band 'n pullstrap was en nie 'n kinetiese band sal daar beslis iets breek, maak nie saak of dit die hak of enige ander punt is nie.

Grou die bande uit as jy vas sit.
Gebruik klippe
as dit nie werk gaan oor om te trek met die "regte toerusting", as dit nie werk berei voor om te snatch met die "regte toerusting" Maak seker van die veiligheid aspekte ( Altyd EERSTE= KRY ALLE TOESKOUERS SOVER TERUG, PARTYKEER SOMMER 10 KEER DIE BAND SE LENGTE IN ALLE RIGTINGS,Bridals, punte, regte shackles, sak oor kinetiese tou saam met alles wat genoem is.)

Dieselfde geld vir Winching ook. Moet nooit te gemaklik wees, enige iets kan gebeur.

[JEEPIE]

Mens moet maar by die stappe bly om te recover. Soos jy se Johannes daar sal iets breek as dit so aangaan. Dan ook as die band 'n pullstrap was en nie 'n kinetiese band sal daar beslis iets breek, maak nie saak of dit die hak of enige ander punt is nie.

Grou die bande uit as jy vas sit.
Gebruik klippe
as dit nie werk gaan oor om te trek met die "regte toerusting", as dit nie werk berei voor om te snatch met die "regte toerusting" Maak seker van die veiligheid aspekte ( Altyd EERSTE= KRY ALLE TOESKOUERS SOVER TERUG, PARTYKEER SOMMER 10 KEER DIE BAND SE LENGTE IN ALLE RIGTINGS,Bridals, punte, regte shackles, sak oor kinetiese tou saam met alles wat genoem is.)

Dieselfde geld vir Winching ook. Moet nooit te gemaklik wees, enige iets kan gebeur.

nogal nie te sleg gese nie.

maar as daar geen toeskouers in die omtrek is nie , nog beter

[LouisZ]

+1 Shaun

[MOFASA]

Hi I was at 1 off the forms events (beginers @ ladiesday) mofasa told and chowed us what 2 do and not 2 do did the safty subject showed us the recuvery points what ropes to use (I lurend a lot that day) and he told us to get out and check an obsticle befor driving it and when it came to the obsticle we dint do what he said (most of us me included) my point is why blame someting when some 1 is to be blamed .the hook dint brake the bolt did y blame the hook ?

Thanks Leonard, I only told you what i know and have been shown but other hilux club members......
Caring is sharing......

[ThysdJ]

Met genoeg geweld kan mens jou vinger in jou h*l ook afbreek. Die heel eerste ding by enige recovery is veiligheid. As jy 'n rated recovery punt het, weet jy op watter stadium hy gaan breek. Sonder die rating is dit soos russian roulette. As die res van jou toerusting rated is weet jy waar is jou swakste punt van die hele setup. So jy weet wat gaan eerste breek.

Die gebruik van bridles versprei die impak op die recovery punte, en die kanse dat al 2 gelyk gaan breek is baie skraal. So daar is jou risiko klaar gehalveer. Maak soos Alien se, tape die goed vas as dit jou gaan laat beter voel. Doen wat jy ookal nodig ag om veiligheid te verseker. Mens kan nooit met die goed te versigtig wees nie.

Wanneer jy 'n hook-up klaar gedoen het dan apply jy safety measures. Lanyards op al die punte waar die bridles op die kar vaskom. Om te keer dat die recovery hake wegvlieg. As jy die lanyards so kort as moontlik hou, dan kry daai punt nie kans om so baie momentum op te tel nie.

As jy (soos jy veronderstel is) na elke outing jou recovery punte nagaan en die boute torque sal jy agterkom as jou chassis besig is om te skeur. Doen enigiemand dit? Dan kan jy planne maak om daardie plekke te versterk. Basic preventative maintenance...

Soos met alles is voorsorg beter as nasorg..... die po-po slaan die fan as mens kortpaaie vat en as mens oorhaastig is...

[JEEPIE]

Met genoeg geweld kan mens jou vinger in jou h*l ook afbreek.

Die heel eerste ding by enige recovery is veiligheid.
+1000
As jy 'n rated recovery punt het, weet jy op watter stadium hy gaan breek.
dis seker hoekom dit n goeie idea is dat hy gereeld vervang word
hang ook af hoe gereeld hy gebruik word (myne baie saam die hilux's)

Sonder die rating is dit soos russian roulette.
As die res van jou toerusting rated is weet jy waar is jou swakste punt van die hele setup.
So jy weet wat gaan eerste breek.

Die gebruik van bridles versprei die impak op die recovery punte, en die kanse dat al 2 gelyk gaan breek is baie skraal. So daar is jou risiko klaar gehalveer. Maak soos Alien se, tape die goed vas as dit jou gaan laat beter voel. Doen wat jy ookal nodig ag om veiligheid te verseker. Mens kan nooit met die goed te versigtig wees nie.
+1000
Wanneer jy 'n hook-up klaar gedoen het dan apply jy safety measures. Lanyards op al die punte waar die bridles op die kar vaskom. Om te keer dat die recovery hake wegvlieg. As jy die lanyards so kort as moontlik hou, dan kry daai punt nie kans om so baie momentum op te tel nie.
+1000

As jy (soos jy veronderstel is) na elke outing jou recovery punte nagaan en die boute torque sal jy agterkom as jou chassis besig is om te skeur.
Daai is nou n baie goeie punt wat ek seker is nie 99.99% van mense doen nie
Doen enigiemand dit?
Dan kan jy planne maak om daardie plekke te versterk. Basic preventative maintenance...
ek glo mos , prevention is beter than cure

Soos met alles is voorsorg beter as nasorg..... die po-po slaan die fan as mens kortpaaie vat en as mens oorhaastig is...

ek dan kan die mense ook silent word , en dit is nie wat jy wil he moet gebeur nie

terwyl recovery 1 van die mees intersante en lekkerste dinge is van 4x4 (seker na om te kyk hoe erg jy kan vas val) is dit die mees gevaarlikste.
recovery punte wat los skiet is net so erg soos n geweer skoot wat los trek
maar jy kort nie n lisensie om n pel te recover nie
SO , knowledge is safety , safety is knowledge , safety means life !

[Cleaner]

Met genoeg geweld kan mens jou vinger in jou h*l ook afbreek.

En moet genoeg geduld kan jy hom weer uithaal ook.

As ek mense, besig met 'n recovery, sien haastig raak, dan vat ek die hase pad. Dis waneer shortcuts gevat word en dinge verkeerd loop!

Send from my ass with my broken off finger

[Oupa Stig]

While in the Army I saw what a kinetic rope can do: one of our 56 tonne Olifant tanks got stuck in marshy ground, the flat belly sucking onto the mud like something obscene best left to describe on another type of forum.
A modified Olifant hull was used as a recovery vehicle, and proceeded to attach a kinetic rope, diameter probably about 150mm relaxed (1988, memory not that great) , with a d-shackle larger than Malema's head to a recovery point on the back of the tank - a piece of steel about 50mm thick...
Several attempt failed (everyone was instructed to stand miles away), so a second tank was used with a second kinetic rope. Both recovery vehicles were to move off at the same time...
One of the ropes snapped...
The Olifant crew commander was standing up in the turret, but at the crucial moment sat down, leaving his cupola ("door") standing vertically.
The rope shot that bomb - proof thick piece of steel right off....
And this was only the rope, imagine if that Malema - head - sized shackle had broken and hit someone.
Best you know EXACTLY what you are doing when playing with these machines, even ones much smaller than an Olifant!