David Vs Golliath

[dalkill]

After 14 yrs, I'm finally the in position to build my dream home in bokaap - i little suburb in CT that withstood the onslaught of apartheid purely because of the rich Muslim heritage , having about 10 mosques in the area, and having the oldest mosque in South Africa.

After 1994 we were open to international trade once more, and house prices on SA shot thru the roof especially in places like bokaap, who was on the doorstep of CBD. IN 2001 i got married and could not afford to buy house in area i was born.

I found myself on the infamous cape flats... So i turned to gov for help... But even more frustrating is now Heritage council wants to stop me throwing down the house.

what urks me the most (and i knew it was gonna come) is that after battling to get back into bokaap, and hating every moment living on cape flats and northern suburbs (apologies to those who live there but i just could not get use to it being a bokaap klonkie thru and thru)... now government has a say over what i can do with MY house.

I wrote over 500 emails to everyone i could in government during 2001 - 2005 to beg and plead and cry for a piece of bokaap to call my own. I made so much noise, they asked me to attend a housing seminar in parliament in Oct 2004 but was put in peanut gallery.
I offered to equip Schotchekloof and St Puals primary with fully operational IT systems if they could give me a piece of land in bokaap, as i thought maybe i was doing it wrong and need to give back to the community as well, but was accused of bribery.
I wrote to the then premier Ebrahim Rasfool inviting him to dinner so i can explain my situation, but got reply he don't do dinners.
I went to see Public works and the guy in charge told me all land must go on auction. When i asked him about heritage when foreigner outbids locals for that land, he told me bottom line important , not heritage.

After all that blood, sweat , tears and humiliation , government has the audacity to turn around and now tell me i cannot do with my house as i please.

I was advised to get the backing of bokaap civic association.
Well, if civic gonna give me hard time as well, then i think that is the final nail in the coffin. Because there is no way heritage will approve without their buy in. I just hope my history in the community will sway their decision making process.... else it off to the papers exposing the hypocrisy of it all, off to gumtree to sell to a german, and moving into walmer estate... which is looking more and more promising , especially with all the road closures in town for a speach that i bet 90% of the country didn't bother to watch, and the other 10% just watch it for Mal-emmer.

So how do i go about legally taking on this MAFIA? They basically untouchable. As soon as your house over 60yrs old you have no say over it. They have final say. ANd you if simply go ahead and do your thing, they can throw you in jail. And in 2000 they actually did. Locked up a developer in JHB for 5 yrs PLUS R300 000 fine.
Jeesh u can shoot someone (a supermodel at that ) thru the door and get away with slap on the wrist but throw old dilapidated house down and they give you 25 to life.

Maybe i should close the door then shoot the house down ... that house so old .22 should do the job

[dd6]

Welcome to Zuma SA....

[george]

I thought the whole idea wAs to keep the bo kaap in its origenal state. Wich I think is a good idea. Why would you want to destroy it if you fought so hard for it

[ChrisF]

SAHRA (South African Heritage Resources Agency) is just below the old Roeland Street jail, now archives.

THESE are the people that decide what you may or may not do.



ANY council application, even for a small pool in your backyard starts with a 10 page document the architect must fill in. TOP of the list - heritage status of the premises .... over 50 years and you are in for a hiding second to none !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





jy moet maar weer hier in die noorde in kom kuier by ons

[pietpetoors]

Don't feel alone, I can also not afford to buy a home in the town I grew up and yes, ha ha ha, government is also not going to help me with that.

The bokaap and its architecture is one of the most beautiful and history rich areas in the country. They must have those rules to protect that. Otherwise all the nice old houses will be lost and high rise buildings will take its place and the culture will be forgotten completely.
There are already too many commercial buildings to my liking, luckily they are now protecting the area.

[dalkill]

George and Pieter... yes i fought hard to get into bokaap which i love for the culture of it.

The Bokaap Civic council has on numerous occasion moaned about gentrification, and how they want they indigenous people of bokaap to stay and protect that culture. They have on many occasions called for those indigenous people to be exempt from the high rates they now face and being "forced" out becuase they cannot afford it. So why can't exceptions be made to those indigenous people to be able to change they house as they want to make life more comfortable and enforce it on those developers and investors looking to buy and make a quick buck at expense of the culture.

SO whats more important. Brick and mortar of people. Does an old building make culture of area or people. Tourist come to see the people first. During the december holidays i met a tour guide at the shop wanting to come buy some koeksisters. When told lady who makes them was on holiday... he said " i come to bokaap and there is no koeksisters... unbelievable".

SO what would happen to bokaap if foreigners bought up all of bokaap. What would that do the culture everyone talking about. Bokaap is one of the very few areas where we still practice the sharing of cakes with neighbours every night during the ramadaan - we send to 16 houses cakes everynight.. mostly family...
While living on the cape flats, i went to break my fast in bokaap, and saw a guy sitting on his stoep enjoying a beer. It broke my heart to see what was happening to our culture. Being sold off the the almighty dollar. Recently a bokaap tradition called Muharram (islamic new year) walk where children from moslem schools around the area, dress in traditional wear and walk up to grave of one of the founders of Islam located up the road from my house... as i was filming this, I saw a couple in GP licensed car come up the road. Moments later, they standing on the corner, making out infront of the all these kids practicing one of our religious traditions !!!

So here i am one of the very few that want to stay in bokaap to fight for our traditions despite the R2M+ carrot, and i just want to at least make sure my family lives comfortably and my hilux dakar edition ( i can dream ) is safe. Parking HUGE problem in bokaap. For as long as i'm alive everyone been fighting with neighbours over parking. And now that standard of living of most been bettered , it means most of my neighbours have more than one car.. in a street where there is only parking on one side of the road.
My dad corrola was stolen. My lux was attempt made to steal it, and when they could not, they cleaned out everything , including tyre gauge and wheel brace !! Sisters car was broken into - dashboard broken while attempting to remove standard tape. Dad's mazda was attempted to be stolen and they broke locks on car. Nephew car was broken into. My best friend living down road jetta was stolen a week after he redid the engine. That same jetta had battery stolen a month after he bought new one. I gave him pair of speakers for that jetta, week later stolen.

Thus my reason to throw down house is also to build garage under house so that my two sons not have to go throw parking worries my dad and I are going thru now.

And this is what it looks like futher up the road in bokaap.... hypocrisy...

Bokaap / campsbay ?

CNXT0010.JPG (127.35 KiB) Viewed 3643 times

does this look like the quint little suburb people come to see... and the plans i'm proposing is nothing like this... it's still very much like old dutch style with mouldings and sash windows.

My Plans

The other night, Baleka Mbeti told carte blanche that the president is too busy to attend parliament to answer questions members are posing about Nkandla... and when questioned that he is constitutionally bound to do so, she said constitution is just a guide line and does not govern every second of his life. So if they can twist the constitution as they please, why can I not get exemption of the Heritage laws??

[pietpetoors]

Shaakir I tend to disagree with you. Buildings are to me just as much part of history than the people. Actually brick and mortar are more so. People change over the ages, the buildings not (that much).

If all the buildings in the Bokaap look like the ones in your pic, not many people will visit the area. It will be just another residential area. Maybe it will have a focused collection of people from the same tradition, but the people alone will not attract visitors.

I also think it is exactly because of buildings in your picture that they decided that they have to protect the last couple of historical buildings.

It is like saying we can take down all the fisherman cottages in Paternoster and build modern homes, people will visit the area to experience the locals.

[Rusti]

Hi Shaakir,

I'm an architectural technologist and work in the Cape Town CBD. I completely understand your grief, frustration and disappointment in the situation. When buying the house you thought you could do allot with it but now you can't do much and no one warned you. But I must unfortunately agree with council. They are there to ensure that the heritage remains long after we are gone and the community has changed. In saying that I think you should have words with your architect.. They should have told you of these design regulations before you had the plans drawn up. Everyone that works here knows these things and they should have gone to heritage with photos of the house to see what is allowed before starting the project. I have done that many times and it works every time. Pinelands, langebaan, Bo kaap it's all the same.. They all have independent design guide lines.

There is one house that has a garage under it like yours so I would go there and see what the differences are and try to better match that one for heritage approval. It's at the top of Wale on the left. On the corner opposite the open field by the cafe. There is a welder there too. And come to think of it he also has a garage under his house that he uses as a workshop. You mention demolishing the existing house. Can it not be altered instead? As you mention it represents probably the most significant part of our history and literally survived the struggle.

You should take photos of those 2 houses to Johan and Jim at heritage. They are great guys and always willing to help. Just ask them how they would advise you to best change what you have to something like that.

PM me if you have any questions etc. I would be happy to help.

Duane

[dalkill]

Duane

I did not buy the house. It's a house I inherited (or at least stand to inherit as my dad still alive).
It was his father's house. So the house has got some sentimental value, but even my father is in agreement that it's so old and in bad shape that it would be better to throw it down.

architect knew heritage would put up a fit thus designed it to fit in with design of houses in the area. But it would not matter how well he designed it, Heritage will not allow me throw it down. They would rather see me smoke and mirrors over that mud and stone construction and live with the inevitable cracks and damp that brings for the rest of my life.

I was thinking of the exact fisherman scenario that you mentioned Pieter... just about the people in arniston.
Does this means that the middle-poor income people must always live in this little pandocies and inferior constructed houses so that Heritage can have another star on their shoulder. What do the people of the community see of this money. Bokaap attracts millions of revenue because of the culture of the area. Yes the house do play a role, and those houses up the road certainly does not help. But as can be seen from my plans i don't want to go that route. I want to remain true to the architectural design of the area. Just with a garage underneath. The exact same design is build just around the corner from me. That was piece of land though so they had no problem approving that. So there is proof... Heritage wants me to live in the old mud house. No matter how well the architect did the design.

To the tourist it does not matter that the contruction is brick / mud. They want to see the old style of houses. Search for bokaap , and the famous green / orange house is much younger than my house. infact i don't think those house count as heritage, as they less than 60 yrs old. Yet, every sat you will find hords of tourist taking photos there. I have searched google and found one pic of my house, of some lady jumping off my stoep. Nothing about the architecture... caption said "jumping in bokaap". So it's clear my house sees no tourist activity. So it's purely for Heritage to have a feather in their cap. I have to deal with all the issues that goes with having old house and no parking. I can't even buy me a bakkie cause i don't want my lux to park outside cause it will surely be stolen. I love fishing and i can't buy me a boat as my motors will be stolen no doubt. I live on road that still has old cobble stones and my suspension take a pounding everyday. All this i have to endure so that Heritage has something to brag about. I don't see one cent in compensation and still slapped with high rates on top of that.

Duane, this is what my house looks like currently... from a sentimental view, you might say it's a gem like this other lady at work who lived in old house like this and she loved the nostalgia of it all but admitted to hordes of problems, but would you want to live in this old turd ?

http://i817.photobucket.com/albums/zz95 ... c5dfd4.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://s817.photobucket.com/user/dalkil ... g.html?o=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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those front windows... are so rotten it can't open.... and i have a very good feeling, if i knock it out to replace it, that entire wall will come down and there is probably no lintels above them...

that hole in kids room... they made with their hands after small hole appeared.

part of the wall next to the house that built same time as the main house has actually collapsed. So the longer Heritage prolongs this , the more they endangering my family. Yet all they care about is that feather in their cap.

i've given myself till the end of the year to fight heritage, then I'll sell the house and move to another area.

[pietpetoors]

Just shows how much people differ. There are people who will be willing to pay millions for a house like that and renovate it.

There are many of these old mud houses that are renovated by chipping off all the plaster, then they attached wire mesh to the clay and then plaster it with normal cement plaster.
It will be much cheaper than rebuilding.

I followed the progress on one of those house in Montagu last year. If you look at it today you will not even be able to tell that it is new plaster all way round.

[dalkill]

ja, it takes all sorts to make the world go round.

Duane, as an architect, do you think heritage will allow me to build another two stories on top of that house, on columns ofcourse, and allow me to put a garage door where windows and door is now. So basically the house now becomes garage. But will the angle of the driveway be too steep? As can be seen from plans.. architect had the existing floor drop by about 0.5 meter to get driveway angle less?

Or maybe higher driveway angle means I have to buy wife a lux too

[Rusti]

Hi Shaakir,

I didn't realise that it was one of the really old mud brick houses. From the damp etc I can see why you want to demolish. Damp invites fungi and fungi can actually be poisonous.

I would have to see the actual house and it's levels before I can say whether or not I believe it can work. Sometimes the plans and elevations are off by a margin.

How old is the house exactly? You should have the foundations checked.. Some of these old houses were built informally and without plan submission so allot of them have dangerously shallow foundations. If the foundations are deep then you may be able to drop the floor slab and get the driveway you want.

But.. Usually heritage wants buildings with significant heritage value to keep the complete original look so I fear that because it's an original Bo kaap mud brick house heritage would not agree to the original building becoming a garage. They usually allow people to build on top etc but don't allow the original facade to change. This is often seen when a building has been completely demolished except for the facade that is braced and standing by itself waiting for the new build behind it.

If you have a very steep road like in the elevation it might be easier to build a garage under the original building. Then strip, reseal and re plaster existing mud bricks and build 1 new floor on top of existing building. Then you can build a roof garden and brand area on top of that. Should cost about the same because you are saving money from not building 1 of the floors and you save on demolition costs. That money then goes into underpinning the current structure and building a basement type garage.

I would be happy to meet you at the house during lunch time sometime next week? After that we can invite the heritage guys down for a meeting and see what their thoughts are.

[pietpetoors]

Nice Duane, amazing how one can find help for just about anything on the Hilux forum.

Will be watching this post, I just love old buildings and would love to see how this one works out.

[dalkill]

I didn't realise that it was one of the really old mud brick houses. From the damp etc I can see why you want to demolish. Damp invites fungi and fungi can actually be poisonous.

indeed... my son was recently admitted to hospital with suspected pneumonia... and this is not the first time.
There is a bag full of pumps and sprays standing on my dressing table that he has to have everynight cause doc suspected allergies. He must get that from me... I grew up in that house suffering terribly when i was young from bronchitis. Now that you mention it, maybe that old mud fungi stuff could have played a role. As i grew older though it got better... still living in that house.

Let me know when you available. I work in Epping ( ), but can ask the boss if i can work from home for the afternoon, then meet u over a lunchtime.

[dalkill]

well if the Rhodes Statue goes, then should my house not too?

It is a reminder of the Dutch Colonialist no ???

[dalkill]

http://www.heritageportal.co.za/forum/8 ... n-approved" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

they hypocrisy (think afrikaans says it better - tweegevrietness) of it all... just because I'm not major property developer that can throw lawyers at them

Here is what my back wall looks like... i sent to Heritage Western Cape. I wonder if they even looked at this pic before issue the standard "Denied !!!".

[ChrisF]

uhm ja ......


bumped into this lot on a number of sites ....... I am NOT an architect, just one of the technical guys on the team. So I view this lot from a distance. And get to hear the side bar comments from those in the know ....


interesting to see how different clients deal with this lot from heritage.



one option - use a "sahra approved architect". Basically your architect gets one of the architects on the sahra list involved in your project. You pay the architects fee, and the sahra approved architect now submits the plans and magically it is approved ..... makes one wonder about the financial issues and committees of investigation there over the last few years ....




some others keeps on re-submitting and altering the plans, refusing to make use of "approved architects" ..... some of these projects do get signed off eventually ..... the costs of delayed construction normally far exceed the cost of playing the game .....



THEN you get the other type of clients !! Those that hand over the project to their advocates, and head straight to the supreme court ! One such exercise took 9 months to finally get in front of the court. The client had the best specialists and tore sahra a new one .... actually PROVED some statements made by sahra to be factually wrong. Totally discredited them and then got the judge to over rule sahra and he could carry on with his project. Helps when you are one of the wealthiest in SA, and have the means to play games like this. The rest of us mere mortals are at the mercy of the "system" .....



My niece owns a historic building in Paarl. IF they were allowed to change 2 or 3 internal walls they would have a functional layout - remember these old buildings were added to many times over the decades, and often not in a practical way. No way they can get sign off, this building is more than a 100 years old. They have spent a fortune renovating it, and it is a true gem. But the "system" wont allow them to change 2 or 3 internal walls .....




The IDEA of keeping our heritage is a novel idea. But when mould threatens live. When load bearing walls is structurally "vrot" .... there comes a time to be realistic. Reminds me of a family that left an old dwelling unattended for a year ... let the mud wash out, and watched the walls fall. THEN re-built the house they wanted ....

[dalkill]

i was toying with the idea of letting nature take it's course... but being the messed up country we are, HWC can actaully force you to maintain the house, or they can do it and then bill you. It's part of their mandate.

I asked them so what happened to Rhodes statue? Were you just overwritten?
They said no the statue was in danger of being decapitated, so they moved it.

So if you not rampant black with disregard for public property and laws, or have string of lawyers at you beck and call, then you as the middle income man will be made a point of that HWC is doing a good job.

[Stef]

What a farce....if nature runs it's course and you don't have money for the so called repairs? No amount of mesh & plaster is going to fix that back wall

Best bet I suppose is to have the building declared structually unfit for occupancy...get an "approved architect" to write a report that foundations etc have to be redone.

Unless you break it down, do the basement garage and rebuild the house on top exactly as it was before...before anyone notices.. Just tell them you are maintaining the building

[dalkill]

SO just over a year later.... and i'm still fiting the good fight.

Even with these supporting documentation, the bokaap civic, the very people i grew up infront of / with, still denies me. Not sure if the puckering up and kissing tail at HWC, whether there is some monatory incentive... they said they cannot support my application. And here i thought they would be the easy part. Adn they reached this decision without coming to my house.

Everyone that came to see the house says thrwo it down, as can be seen in the letters. Even Mr David Hart from CoCT said "no amount of plaster going to fix this"

The people with the final say does not want to come visit my house. Bokaap Civic nor HWC. Yet they making decisions that affect the health and safety of my family.

Makes one want to move to Australia.

[Mud Dog]

Take your story to the Times, or even your daily rag if they're interested. Might get more joy that way.

[Family_Dog]

I've been following a similar story on an old farmhouse in England, wooden and totally full of rot. Someone suggested he 'accidentally" let the building collapse while working on the house - I totally concur!

http://www.thewoodhaven2.co.uk/viewtopi ... 40df7300d1




Mike has some 68 pages of very interesting reading!


-F_D

[dalkill]

Ja oom eric... red tape and middle income just don't gel well together.

My one internal door leading to bathroom and yard door, not exposed to the weather is now not closing anymore.
This normally happens with outside door when winter sets in.
There is only two reason i think.
Damp or structural movement. Not sure which is worst. That would have to be some serious damp to cause door to swell out. And structural movement... eish

[Family_Dog]

>> And structural movement... eish

Would be sad if the structure unfortunately collapsed as you were attempting to repair it, not so?


-F_D

[ChrisF]

Shaakir now try employing a "heritage approved architect" .....

same plans glides through the system ....


but we are to believe it is all "okay" ....



not everybody that can afford to take them to the Supreme Court and pull them appart.... know a gent in Hermanus that did just that. He just refused to buy into the "approved architect" BS ..... got some seriously highly paid legal professionals and won his case.

must be nice to have the means to "make a point".

but then again, his little project came in at about R50M. 2/3rds of a street block !! That's his holiday house, and not the only one in Hermanus ....

[RiyadhFortuner]

Move your family out. Wait a week, hook up a recovery hope to one of the internal supporting walls and pull. Report to the council the building collapsed.

[RiyadhFortuner]

On a serious note, we had the same issue years ago in Walmer Estate Woodstock. Just below the highway. Foundation is badly cracked, and the one side of the house was coming away from the building. Eventually we ended up selling and moving on. However, we were advised that we could use steel beams to reinforce etc. So maybe you could look into this option and build up. Eventually add your garage on the ground floor, but use it as a store, work area etc for the building supplies.

[ChrisF]

On a serious note, we had the same issue years ago in Walmer Estate Woodstock. Just below the highway. Foundation is badly cracked, and the one side of the house was coming away from the building. Eventually we ended up selling and moving on. However, we were advised that we could use steel beams to reinforce etc. So maybe you could look into this option and build up. Eventually add your garage on the ground floor, but use it as a store, work area etc for the building supplies.

bear in mind that today the seller may not sell a building KNOWING of such issues ... and who would buy it if you declared it upfront ....

[dalkill]

indeed chris.

i have to declare to potential buyer this house comes with heritage baggage.
There been few cases i read new owners taking seller to court cause they can't make alterations.

SO i can't stay there. I can't sell.
Next move is to the public protectors office

[ChrisF]

please do yourself a favour - go the SAHRA (South African Heritage Resources Agency) in Roeland Street.

Ask them for a list of heritage approved architects .... pay the "tax" and get one that will get you approval to do hardcore repairs.


We currently have a project where we have to re-submit due to structural damage that makes the initial proposal unworkable .... with the report of a structural engineer and the correct architect these things DO get approved.

Step ONE - use one of their architects !!

[pietpetoors]

Shaakir, and this is what happens if you are one of the Golliaths, you can do as you please, follow the state president's example and show rules and regulations the middle finger.

When I saw this article I immediately thought of your battle to change your home:
http://businesstech.co.za/news/finance/ ... -cape-town