Battery systems

[mushroom]

Guys, lets get a discussion going on deep cycle installations vs using a normal car battery in a dual system. I am looking to install a dual system and would like to know which is the best option. How do you keep your beers cold?

[blom]

James you don't have to discuss
deepcycle for the second batt
"normal" batt do not want to be run flat, and then be charged, it has a impact on the livespan
deep cycle batt is cool with running flat and charged all day long but prefer not to give sudden bursts off power

[Family_Dog]

I'm not keen on deep cycle batteries, they also require a slightly higher charging voltage than a High Cycle battery, which is difficult to obtain in a vehicle unless you have a DC-DC charger, which is basically an inverter followed by a converter.


-F_D

[Bushwacker]

How do deep cycle batts do with winching?, and as Wimpie informed me, it is better to winch with the engin not running, because the alternator can not supply (sometimes up to 400A+) the amps that the winch draws. I have 2x 102Ah batts on the dual sustem, and I use the winch override function for winching. My main battery is a deep cycle, I got the KZ like that, and it doesn't realy charge fully on local trips. I must get a normal battery for the main battery.
This is an interesting topic. Thanks

[Family_Dog]

Piet. I would let the engine run at a fast idle when winching, it helps supply a wee bit more 'Oomph!' to the current supplied from the normal battery/ies.


-F_D

[Bushwacker]

So Eric, it would not damage the alternator?

[Family_Dog]

Doubt it... you don't winch for that long. But that is just my humble opinion, we would need one of the experienced guys to confirm whether it is a mythbuster subject or not. If the alternator can only supply 60, 80, or 100A or whatever, that's all it's going to supply, if the revs are high enough. By the time you've destroyed the Alternator, the batteries would probably have melted down too.


-F_D

[cprinsloo]

I'm not keen on deep cycle batteries, they also require a slightly higher charging voltage than a High Cycle battery, which is difficult to obtain in a vehicle unless you have a DC-DC charger, which is basically an inverter followed by a converter.


-F_D

One can also jack up the alternator voltage with a diode (0.7 v increase), but I guess the normal battery can then be overcharged. This is done on the regulator (1N4007 diode), Install a high capacity diode then between alternator and normal baatery to lower voltage to normal again.

C

[kfxnando]

well hope its ok, to post links to similar(more of a general off road site) offroad sites!!

any case if not ok, then it can just be deleted

its one of my posts on another site, and responses and some discussions around the battery alternator issue

http://www.fourwheeler.biz/forum/viewto ... ?f=39&t=84

hope this will be of some help!!

[Family_Dog]

and no the head light bulbs wont pop!!!

Running the headlights at 18v will most certainly drastically shorten the life span of your bulbs, not to mention possible damage to the EMS and radios etc. Not a good idea.


-F_D

[kfxnando]

So to the 18V charge

Not suggesting that the guys use 18V for their applications

[Dadz Toy BFI]

IMHO run 2 x High Cycle Batts (main and 2nd)

(a Deep Cycle Batt isn't designed to take the cranking load of a starter motor and a Normal Cranking Batt discharges too quickly)

[legend35]

I run a 225ahr battery for my second battery,with my normal altenator,for two years now and had no problems.It discharge faster than two deep cycle batteries,but olso charge faster than the deep cycle batteries.And I dont need a intellegent charger for recharge.Crank batteries are cheeper than deep cycle.

[cprinsloo]

well hope its ok, to post links to similar(more of a general off road site) offroad sites!!

any case if not ok, then it can just be deleted

its one of my posts on another site, and responses and some discussions around the battery alternator issue

http://www.fourwheeler.biz/forum/viewto ... ?f=39&t=84

hope this will be of some help!!

From the site:
Now back to physics

Power = VI (voltage X current)

Eg, if a fridge/inverter is 300w = 12 X 25 (know that they don’t draw that much)

Now if you run it off a higher voltage

300w = 14V X 21.4A

300w = 15V X 20A

Question: Does this hold for lights as well, i.e. the higher the voltage the less current the globes draw?

C

[BenHur]

Yip that is why I always laught at the okes who try to sell you a 12v 50w down lighter as an energy saver since 50 watt is 50 watt, so on a 12 volt system the current is just higher

50w/12v = 4.17A
50w/220v=0.2A

[Traveler]

When looking at battery systems, I need an upgrade because my manual system is bit primitive. I've always been manually swapping batteries between the trailer and the engine bay and can go like that for a week without prob. Will it work if I run a PBE system with a battery under the canopy and another battery in the trailer for the fridge/freezer? All connected with an electronic controller?

[Scooter]

I use a normal high cycle for cranking with 2 x deep cycle in the bak.
This ran a fridge and a freezer for our holiday in moz this last December.

Ran the fridges on mains when there was mains and used a solar panel for charging whilst standing still for 3 weeks, sun a plenty :D

I cant comment on using high cycle only and I can see the arguments with pros and cons for both but my system works for me.

[cprinsloo]

When looking at battery systems, I need an upgrade because my manual system is bit primitive. I've always been manually swapping batteries between the trailer and the engine bay and can go like that for a week without prob. Will it work if I run a PBE system with a battery under the canopy and another battery in the trailer for the fridge/freezer? All connected with an electronic controller?

A PBE system will work, it seems the guys know what they are doing. But there are quite a few systems that will work...... depends on how thick your wallet is.

Options:
You can use a CH solenoid that you switch with a toggle switch, simple and nasty.

You can use a PBE solution (maybe best but also most expensive I guess, and will you be able to repair it in the bush, vrot meat is even worse than warm beer)?

Use a VSR (Voltage Sensitive Relay), Bud Morris sells them, also install and forget.

Whatever you choose, make sure the cables are thick enough (twin flex a little bit too thin, search for Volt Drop on the forum), lugs soldered etc.

I like to connect the cables going to the second battery DIRECTLY to the alternator, and negative DIRECTLY to the engine, but that's just me....

Install an ammeter, tells you a lot about the state of the alternator and state of charge. It's just a resistance in parallel with a DMM. Wiki ammeter....

I say again, do it right the first time, with the correct equipment, and it will last a long time.

C

[Traveler]

Dankie Chris, ek kyk tans na 'n CH Solenoid oplossing.

[African Child]

Vergeet van die deepcycle battery, dit is onpraktries en geldmors in n overlandingvoertuig veral op trips langer as 3dae in die bos. Soos Eric geses het jou voertuig kan nie die deepcycle genoeg laai nie. Ek het dit al oor en oor self ondervind tot groot frustrasie! :x

[cprinsloo]

Vergeet van die deepcycle battery, dit is onpraktries en geldmors in n overlandingvoertuig veral op trips langer as 3dae in die bos. Soos Eric geses het jou voertuig kan nie die deepcycle genoeg laai nie. Ek het dit al oor en oor self ondervind tot groot frustrasie! :x

Hi Leon,

Kan jy dalk meer spesifiek wees oor die probleme?
Watse grootte battery?
Wat het hy as las gehad? (yskas, ligte ens) Hoeveel stroom moes hy lewer vir hoe lank?
Hoe lank periodes van laai tot laai? Hoe lank is die battery dan gelaai?
Wat was die laaispanning?
Watse laaisisteem gebruik jy?

C

[cprinsloo]

Dankie Chris, ek kyk tans na 'n CH Solenoid oplossing.

Ek het ook 'n CH, maar oorweeg die VSR. Bietjie duur, maar dis 'n Solid State Device wat nie 'n hoë weerstand oor die kontakte ontwikkel nie.

C

[African Child]

Daar was n rukkie terug oor dieselfde onderwerp gepost. Ek trek gewoonlik net my yskas vannaf die tweede battery. Die deepcycle was n Delco 105amp hour. Die senario is tipies n Kalaghadi / Botswana trip. Jy ry 5 tot 6 ure per dag. Jou Aircon, yskas, ens is aan terwyl jy ry. So met die altenator wat inelkgeval nie genoeg krag lewer nie, nou trek die toerusting dan ook nog krag. Jy kom by jou kamplek, dis 36grade, jou voertuig staan tot die volgende oggend met die yskas wat maar hard werk in die hitte. Die deepcycle le die volgende oggend laag bv 11.95v. Jy ry weer 5-6 ure die volgende dag. Nou kry die battery weer nie genoeg gelaai nie plus hy is nou swakker as na die vorige dag se ry. So na die derde of vierde dag sit jy met n rooi liggies wat baie na aan die kleur van jou gekreukelde voorkop weerkaats. In my ondervinding moet n deepcycle na n paar dae op n trip vol gelaai word op 220 met die korrekte charger.

[cprinsloo]

Daar was n rukkie terug oor dieselfde onderwerp gepost. Ek trek gewoonlik net my yskas vannaf die tweede battery. Die deepcycle was n Delco 105amp hour. Die senario is tipies n Kalaghadi / Botswana trip. Jy ry 5 tot 6 ure per dag. Jou Aircon, yskas, ens is aan terwyl jy ry. So met die altenator wat inelkgeval nie genoeg krag lewer nie, nou trek die toerusting dan ook nog krag. Jy kom by jou kamplek, dis 36grade, jou voertuig staan tot die volgende oggend met die yskas wat maar hard werk in die hitte. Die deepcycle le die volgende oggend laag bv 11.95v. Jy ry weer 5-6 ure die volgende dag. Nou kry die battery weer nie genoeg gelaai nie plus hy is nou swakker as na die vorige dag se ry. So na die derde of vierde dag sit jy met n rooi liggies wat baie na aan die kleur van jou gekreukelde voorkop weerkaats. In my ondervinding moet n deepcycle na n paar dae op n trip vol gelaai word op 220 met die korrekte charger.

Dankie vir die info Leon. Watse laaisisteem gebruik jy?

Cheers,

C

[African Child]

n Genisis system, maar ook maar onondige gelduitgee. Jy kan self vir baie goedkoper n betroubare eenvoudige setup aanmekaar sit. Die lekkerte daarvan dan is dat as iets foutgaan in die veld jy dit self kan regmaak. Die fancy goed word aan jou verkoop, ingesit en as iets foutgaan dan weet jy nie waar om te vat of te los nie want jy was nie betrokke by die insit nie. Baie keer is dit sommer net n draaitjie wat af is en kan net daar reggemaak word. Ek dink mens moet regtig probeer om soveel moontlik betrokke te wees en vra te vra met die insit van enige ekstras op jou voertuig. Dis maar die ou storie van alles so eenvoudig moontlik hou. In die nuwe SA 4x4 skryf n gesoute overlander wat sy eie maatskappy het in Afrika van al die tierlantyntjies wat ouens op hulle bakkies sit en hoe onnodig meeste van die goed is. As jy goed oor alles dink en eerlik met jouself is oor wat hy se kom jy agter hy's reg..... maar daai tweede battery is beslis n moet vir koue verversings in die bos.

[cprinsloo]

n Genisis system, ..... verversings in die bos.

Ok, thx. 'n Genesis ken ek glad nie. Ek sou rêrig voorstel dat jy 'n ammeter insit. Die weerstand kos so R 120 by rectifier.co.za, dan kort jy 2 dumpy isolators, en 'n El Cheapo DMM. Dis rêrig die enigste manier om te bepaal hoe goed jou battery gelaai word. Ek vermoed daar is 'n ander probleem, ek het nog nooit 'n probleem gehad om myne gelaai te kry nie, 5 - 6 ure behoort genoeg te wees om hom ten minste vir een nag aan die gang te hou. En ek stem saam dat eenvoudiger beter is, as jy die werking verstaan kan jy hom in die bos regmaak. Voorspoed.

C

[African Child]

Ek gebruik van laasjaar nou n gewone 75amp battery soos in my vorige voertuig en sover werk alles klopdisselboom soos Oubaas sal se. Ek het die probleem met die Deltec in Paarden Eiland bespreek voor ek die verandering gemaak het en hulle het die probleem met die alternator charge bevestig. Die ander probleem met die deepcycle is dat indien hy baie pap getrek is hy n paar uur tydens die eerste laai net "idle" voor hy regtig weer krag op tel. Ek glo daar is geen manier wat jou voertuig dan met een dag se ry genoeg die battery kan laai sodat jy hom effektief die aand of nag kan gebruik nie. Hiers n paar slim manne op die site en ek praat maar uit persoonlike ervaring so vertel my asb as julle nie saamstem nie.

[cprinsloo]

hulle het die probleem met die alternator charge bevestig. ........
Die ander probleem met die deepcycle is dat indien hy baie pap getrek is hy n paar uur tydens die eerste laai net "idle" voor hy regtig weer krag op tel.

Um, jy't my bietjie verloor. Was daar 'n probleem met die alternator? Het hulle dit opgelos en het jy terselfdertyd 'n ander battery begin gebruik?

Jammer ek vra so baie, dis altyd vir my 'n interessante onderwerp. My opinie is dat 'n goeie alternator en 'n goeie installasie jou nie te veel probleme behoort te gee nie. Ek dink die kleinste alternators kan 55 Amp lewer, wat baie meer is as die meeste battery laaiers. Dit is so dat 'n alternator nie 'n intelligente laaier is nie, maar baie kar batterye hou baie jare as hy gereeld gelaai word en die water gereeld nagegaan word.

Terloops, weet enige iemand wat die regte laaispanning vir 'n "deep cycle" is?

C

[Gunta]

I have been running a normal delco battery upfront and a delco deep cycle battery at the back for 4 years now and I run 2 engel fridges off it with no problems. I also have the winch overide to the rear. Maybe if you are not charging the batteries enough you should install a bigger alteranator.

[cprinsloo]

I have been running a normal delco battery upfront and a delco deep cycle battery at the back for 4 years now and I run 2 engel fridges off it with no problems. I also have the winch overide to the rear. Maybe if you are not charging the batteries enough you should install a bigger alteranator.

What system do you have (CH, PBE, Nat Luna etc)?
How long do you have to drive to charge the battery again, and how long will it run the 2 fridges then?

[African Child]

HA! HA! Sorry man ek skryf hier tussen die werk deur. Alternator 100% gewees, maar volgens wat vir my gese is moet n deepcycle teen 14.4 ( tot 100amp hour ) laai om reg te laai en ek praat onder korreksie, maar my bakkie laai +- teen 13.7. Asgevolg daarvan laai die battery nie reg en vol nie en daarom moet jy die deepcycle met iets soos n C-Tec smart Charger laai wat wel teen 14.4 laai. n Gewone battery het nie nodig om so hoog gelaai te word nie. Is ek reg??????????? Help maar asb......

[Family_Dog]

Leon, jy's 100% reg! Dit is die rede waarom ek nooit worry van 'n Deep Cycle battery nie, the gewone High Cycle laai heelwat vinniger end is 'n perfek match vir die alternator, met goeie dik kabels, natuurlik!

Chris, you would definitely benefit from either ew C-Tek or a Benton "intelligent" charger. These will charge any type of battery. Refer full specifications here:

Benton BX-1

Benton BX-2


-F_D

[cprinsloo]

Leon, jy's 100% reg! Dit is die rede waarom ek nooit worry van 'n Deep Cycle battery nie, the gewone High Cycle laai heelwat vinniger end is 'n perfek match vir die alternator, met goeie dik kabels, natuurlik!

Chris, you would definitely benefit from either ew C-Tek or a Benton "intelligent" charger. These will charge any type of battery. Refer full specifications here:

Benton BX-1

Benton BX-2


-F_D

Thx Eric. My problem is that sometimes I don't see a 220 v point for 3 or 4 days, then the charger won't do me much good, anyway. But I have a 12 A intelligent charger for when I see a 220 outlet!

I don't really have a problem with my set-up. When my battery is a bit flat and I switch it into the circuit, I see up to 45 Amps for a few seconds, it then settles at 25 Amp and gradually decreases. If this isn't enough charge I wouldn't know what would be. I friend of mine also did the same type of installation as mine, but he has a bigger alternator (90 A), he saw 65 Amps for a few seconds, it then settled at 40 Amps.

WHat I'm trying to determine is why so many other people have problems. I think that it is usually too thin wires, and the connections are in the wrong place. PBE states that they connect to the alternator, NL recommend the primary battery. I still maintain (and sorry if I step on people's toes, but it's my opinion) that a relatively small alternator will kick most battery chargers butt, if the set-up is correct. I'm going to play around with jacking up my alternator charge voltage, I see that most of the battery chargers do 14.4, 14.7 or 14.8 v, which I assume is the correct voltage to charge a deep cycle. A slightly modified alternator can deliver enough current to weld with, why not enough to charge a battery?

I have some data on the charge currents when I drove, that's why the ammeter is so handy for me. What I like about deep cycles is that one can discharge them to a lower level, which a normal car battery cannot do without damage. A normal car battery is designed to give a relatively high current for a short time, and shouldn't be discharged to less than I think 80% (can be 50%??). The deep cycle can be discharged to I think 50% (can be 20%??). The deep is AFAIK also not too good for cranking engines, will not last as long as the car battery.

But in any case, that's just my opinion.

Cheers,

C

(Do you still do VHF radio's?)

[Family_Dog]

Chris, Deep Cycle batteries should be able to handle an 50-80% discharge while a High Cycle should never drop below 80%, as you state. I agree that cables are usually under-specced, resulting in a voltage drop. I measured mine awhile ago, the voltage drop was around 300mV, most of it through the CH solenoid contacts.

Yep, still do VHF and we should be having a special on portable radios soon, sometime next month. I will post this on the forum when it happens, the radios are ex-rental and are between two months and twelve months old.


-F_D