Hilux Raider

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:53 am

I bought from a dealer, a KZTE 3.0 TDi 2002 Hilux Raider a few days ago with 41000 on the clock. Speedo replaced at 200,000. No service history book or manual. Appeared to be in mint condition for the mileage. I am a Brit down from Nairobi and will use the Hilux for the mountain I live on. This is a great forum and I read about in a 4x4 magazine and how everyone was working hard to collect for Tymme. I spend part of the year in the UK and people can contribute/make donations using Paypal or through another organisation called 'Just giving' both of which can be done over the internet. Forgive me if this has been done already.

Can anyone suggest a reliable and trustworthy garage/mechanic that I can take the Hilux to for a service or repair in the Cape Town or Somerset West area? I run an Isuzu in Kenya and belong to an Isuzu forum and run two Rover 75's in the UK and am a member of the Rover 75 MG ZT Club, and am looking forward to learning all about the Hilux. I do not have a bank account here, so do not know how I can pay my membership club fee. I could pay via paypal or via my UK bank I guess. I hope I have written this up in the right place.

Post by **Mud Dog** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:09 am

Hi Phil, and welcome to the forum!

Of course, we would like to welcome you to the club and I'm sure that PayPal will do the trick.

Can anyone suggest a reliable and trustworthy garage/mechanic that I can take the Hilux to for a service or repair in the Cape Town or Somerset West area?

Allan Venter (aka "Hoppy") of AEW Auto in Brakenfell is well known down in the Cape for his expertise with Hiluxes.

Enjoy the forum!

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:24 am

Thanks Andy for the warm welcome which is much appreciated and for the tip on paypal and Hoppy. I somehow knew there would be an answer. I will check back tomorrow for how membership can be paid for using paypal.

Much obliged

Phil

OOOOMS · Post by **OOOOMS** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:56 am

Welcome Phil, yes Hoppy is your man, they refer to him as Mr Hilux nowadays

ThysdJ · Post by **ThysdJ** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:06 am

Hi there Phil. Welcome to our shores. Looking forward to meeting you at some of our get togethers in the Western Cape.

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:10 am

Many thanks guys for such a friendly welcome. I will keep Hoppy in reserve for future servicing and essential maintenance. I look forward to coming to the meets in the Western Cape and being able to see fellow members and their rigs. I spoke to my wife this morning about putting my membership through the company account and she thought it would be easier to just print off the club account details and deposit the R100 into the club bank. I think it would be easier to do it that way than to use paypal as my paypal is in UK money. I think if I deposit the membership fee into the club account at the clubs bank and use my membership name as the reference, then it should be okay?

I brought out some diagnostic scanners/fault code readers with me from the UK. One is for my mate in Paarl, which he will use on his BMW 330D and his Rover MG ZT V6. It is an OBD2 16 pin scanner which is connected via a link connector and a laptop. The other one is a hand held one and can be plugged in for 'live information' - also 16 pin. I had thought of using it to interrogate the Hilux for diagnostics and might use it if it is compatible to reset the engine warning light, should it come up. It generates generic fault codes if there are any and if the car is OBD 1 or 2 compliant and has an ECU

Where would I find the connector link on the 2002 Hilux 4x2 for diagnostics? Do members have a preferred fault code reader?

Phil

OOOOMS · Post by **OOOOMS** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:49 am

Gate Keeper wrote:Many thanks guys for such a friendly welcome. I will keep Hoppy in reserve for future servicing and essential maintenance. I look forward to coming to the meets in the Western Cape and being able to see fellow members and their rigs. I spoke to my wife this morning about putting my membership through the company account and she thought it would be easier to just print off the club account details and deposit the R100 into the club bank. I think it would be easier to do it that way than to use paypal as my paypal is in UK money. I think if I deposit the membership fee into the club account at the clubs bank and use my membership name as the reference, then it should be okay?

I brought out some diagnostic scanners/fault code readers with me from the UK. One is for my mate in Paarl, which he will use on his BMW 330D and his Rover MG ZT V6. It is an OBD2 16 pin scanner which is connected via a link connector and a laptop. The other one is a hand held one and can be plugged in for 'live information' - also 16 pin. I had thought of using it to interrogate the Hilux for diagnostics and might use it if it is compatible to reset the engine warning light, should it come up. It generates generic fault codes if there are any and if the car is OBD 1 or 2 compliant and has an ECU

Where would I find the connector link on the 2002 Hilux 4x2 for diagnostics? Do members have a preferred fault code reader?

Phil

Yip Phil, that will be great, just email POP to pieter @ hilux 4x4.co.za (no spaces)
http://www.hiluxclub.co.za/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:16 am

Thanks Mark for that. I visited the FNB on Friday and submitted the payment in cash. I will send the email with the details as advised. The club offers excellent value for money as well as the support to fellow members is priceless from what I have seen.
All the best. Phil

legend35 · Post by **legend35** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:36 am

Welcome Phil.Hope you enjoy it here

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:00 am

Thank you Johan for the warm welcome. So much to learn and share

OOOOMS · Post by **OOOOMS** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:32 pm

Hi Phil, just curious, what are you doing in ZA and for how long? Or did you just come down to buy the KZ?

OOOOMS · Post by **OOOOMS** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:37 pm

Oh and don't forget to paste a pic of your pride and joy here:

viewtopic.php?f=136&t=8657" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:56 pm

Hi Mark. Basically our family has owned part of the Helderberg since WW2 - the part which overlooks Somerset West and my wife went to school in CT. We were married on the mountain and are back to renovate the farm buildings within the regulations. We needed a bakkie which would fit into our budget of 80K and would survive going up and down the mountain carrying building supplies as well as for trips to the beach. We will be keeping it here. We can only stay for 3 months at a time because of our visa. Who knows, we might even settle here.

Post by **Family_Dog** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:34 pm

See now! This is where I need to then spend nine months of the year... I reckon I could put up with the hustle & bustle of moving to the Helderberg countryside overlooking Somerset West without too many problems :)

Good luck in your search Phil, and please post some scenic pictures of your view when you get the chance!

-F_D

AM Racing · Post by **AM Racing** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:08 pm

Welcome Phil. The Hilux uses the std odb 2 and its located just above the driver feet. Unfortunetly it is not obd 2 compliant so you will not be able to check emmision type dtc's using generic obd. If the engine light comes on you can disconnect the battery for a minute or so and then reconnect. If the light stays on you will have to take it to someone who has the relevant equipment.
Enjoy your Lux.

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:31 am

Good morning Eric and Dylan. We have been so busy up here on the mountain and when I get the chance I will put up some views from where we are. Thanks for the tip Dylan about the diagnostics and how to deal with the engine warning light. Something I now know. We have been very impressed by how attentive the local traders have been. Last Sunday, a builder arrived with a plumber, an electrician, a kitchen fitter, a carpenter, a security specialist and an architect, and within a couple of days, all had given written quotes. Within a week, tree fellers had chopped down 7 sugar blue gum trees close to the house and today a log planker arrived. 10/10 service so far. I am getting in more quotes for comparison. Such service sadly is lacking in Kenya and in the UK. I have been reading through some of the posts here and looking at the wild life threads. A couple of days ago I was digging out a pond and heard hissing coming from the reed bank. Of course I was being warned off. I had heard that a python lives there. Do pythons live on the mountains around here? I have only ever had once encounter with a King Cobra which fell onto my lap at the house in Nairobi. I kept perfectly still and it continued on its way. The puff adder and the cape cobra have been seen here but outside. I have been really impressed by the comradeship on site - how people donated blood and another time raised funds for a fellow member's medical bills. Anyway - I hope I am not boring you too much and won't prattle on. It is great to be on board!

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:04 pm

Re: Club membership

What is the next step? I emailed Pieter with my payment details, tracking number and so on. Do I get a number etc?

Post by **Family_Dog** » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:33 pm

Phil, Pieter will do his magic tricks and your user name colour will change to blue. Your name will also appear in the list here:

http://www.hiluxclub.co.za/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-F_D

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:21 am

Hello Eric. Thanks for getting back to me. Whilst Pieter tracks down and approves my application I am still to take some photos of the views from where we are. To give an idea for locals in the western cape, we also overlook Erinvale and Laurensford to the left of us. Our farm runs parallel next to the Helderberg Nature Reserve all the way up to the top. I would think that it would be virtually impossible and even dangerous to try to drive a 4x4 up to the top. I have not seen any 4x4 tracks up high. My cousin did take a new mazda 4x4 up on a test drive up one of the firebreaks, but only halfway as the salesman was not happy to go any higher. When I get some free time, I will walk up to the top to take some pics. Phil

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:37 pm

Hello Pieter,

In case my email has been misdirected or whatever, maybe this might help. I hope so.

R100 cash deposit for Hilux4x4.co.za Club into the Strand Branch of FNB on 18/03/2011 @ 13.23
into account 62259542035

Trace ID VODSLGKMJGWB Teller no. 3615510

Reference. Gate Keeper

Thanks

Phil

Post by **pietpetoors** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:54 pm

Phil, you have not registred on the club site yet so we do not have your address to send your sticker and welcoming letter
Could you please register at http://www.hiluxclub.co.za/join.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and we can then link your membership to your payment

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:33 am

Hello Pieter

I registered this morning at 08.30 and hopefully it will go through okay. Thanks for doing your magic trick with the blue writing. I apologise for not completing the formalities properly in the right order.

Phil

Post by **pietpetoors** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:44 pm

No problem Phil, welcome to THE club

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:01 pm

Bad news guys. Today we lost the house and farm on the mountain due to a wild wind fire.. Burned to the ground. The fire had started early and when we rang it in, we were told it was a controlled burn on the Nature Reserve side The house burned completely and the it was not until about 2pm that the helicopters sprayed the house dousing the flames. Basically, everything has gone. We are staying with friends tonight and going back to the farm in the morning. We are ok but in a state of shock - sorry for not writing it up properly. There was a film on ETV of our house burning. All very sad. Phil

Post by **Mud Dog** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:19 pm

Ouch!! :wth:

Phil, that is indeed shocking and sad news! It's great that you are all OK and that there were no injuries or loss of life, but still, to loose everything in a single swipe, must be traumatic. Yes, it's only material things, but most often they cannot be replaced for sentimental or historical reasons, and even if you were fully insured there is always an unfilled void.

We extend our deepest sympathies and uphold you all in our prayers so that you may find the inner strength to get through this disastrous event. Hang in there!

Thabogrobler · Post by **Thabogrobler** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:26 am

Ouch!!

All the lost history!

arnize2 · Post by **arnize2** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:58 am

This is precisely what I meant in my comment on the fire in the other thread. This is a huge loss, both financially and for the historical history of the region. I can only imagine in what mental state you must be in right now. I can only wish you the best for the days ahead and a cool head to make the correct decisions going forward.

Post by **Family_Dog** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:47 am

Very sorry to hear about this, Phil. My sympathies to you in your loss.

-F_D

Niel · Post by **Niel** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:18 am

The same thing with burning the renoster veld at Tygerberg Nature reserve a month or so ago " a so called controlled fire and when the public called in they claim they knew about it and then almost a disaster. I feel for you Phil Best of luck

OOOOMS · Post by **OOOOMS** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:31 pm

Sorry to hear Phil.....

Fortunately you guys are safe, you will be in our prayers :wink2:

Post by **Mud Dog** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:21 pm

Has the fire been extinguished yet? Have you been back to the farm yet, Phil? ...... a total loss?

OOOOMS · Post by **OOOOMS** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:22 pm

Was that the house built in 1938 reported on News24?

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:48 am

The house was built in 1975 and the other house below us was built in 1938 and remained undamaged. I will put up some photos of our house before and after the fire (when I can). As you can imagine, this week has been chaotic. We are still without water and power. The mountain provides water for 5 families living on the mountain as well as a vineyard. 2 km of pipe was lost completely. Our house was the only one high up burned out. Another house, a cottage had a total loss which was at the foot of the mountain. The fire brigade and paramedics I guess were maxed out elsewhere and did not get to us until around 11 pm. The chopper made several bombing runs early pm. Sadly too late for the house. The house was assessed by a structural engineer and he said one wall and a ceiling will have to be demolished. Other walls and all of the floors just disintegrated. A garden rockery water feature somehow managed to preserve one end of the house which was undamaged. We still do not know if the insurers will pay out to rebuild the house. I believe we are covered to get water back to the house. Nothing will happen until after the bank holiday. We are going to the farm every day just to be there and ward off thieves and tourists. Our lawyers have asked us to take as many photos as possible. Old and new photos for the case which will have to made against the people who started the fire. It is a nightmare and every day I wake up, I think of the fire, of my wife and myself running down the mountain just with our passports and a few things. All of my shoes were burned. I spoke to the Divisional Fire Chief for the area who told me they had been watching the fire on satellite and he told us the fire had swept up from the nature reserve to our house in 3 minutes. He apologised and that has helped. I do admire the emergency services as they are all brave and earn very little for the tremendous work they do. We are sad - not angry and will our best to rebuild the house and the farm. Thank you everyone for your kind thoughts, friendship and prayers. Phil and Jessica

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Tue May 17, 2011 8:41 pm

It has now been a month since the fire and a few days since the tree roots stopped burning. The house on the mountain is still a ruin and without power or water. The other farm cottages now have water restored. We have heard that the insurers have put the house rebuild out to tender and we are waiting to hear if the insurance company will pay for a builder to rebuild or give us a lump sum to do the job ourselves. Yesterday we had our 4th robbery since the fire. All of the copper and electrics has been stolen. Not much left. The Hilux survived untouched! We now have what remains of the house guarded night and day and are getting quotes in for electric perimeter fencing and alarms. We will have to have this in place before we rebuild as we are now on the criminal map for the first time. Tomorrow night, a well known private security company are going to stake out the house and mountain with attack dogs. The dogs picked up a scent yesterday. Traps for the Bad Guys have also been laid inside the ruins. Mud Dog was right when he said we will need strength! But in comparison to fellow members and their families who are also having a tough time, our hard times are of no consequence in that we have our health (mostly). My heart and prayers go out to everyone who is having a rough ride. Phil

Post by **Mud Dog** » Tue May 17, 2011 9:37 pm

Hi Phil, it's good to hear that there is positive progress!

Unfortunately these things take time to set straight and I admire your resolve in seeing it through, dealing with each hurdle as it arises without losing your positive outlook. Believe it or not, you guys are still on our prayer list along with the many others here that have encountered medical issues, met with ill fortune or accidents. (It's a longer list than I prefer to see

). Hang in there!

If at all possible and you get the opportunity, a few pics might help to put it all into perspective.

Thanks for the update.

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Sat May 21, 2011 11:03 am

Thanks Andy. Your words mean a lot to us. More than you can know.

The photos of the fire are on my facebook and can be seen if you are able to visit the 4x4hilux facebook post which Thys is running. My facebook identity I mentioned on his post last week, 3rd entry above Pieter's. If you or other members click on my photo there, the other photos should come up. I am sorry, I have not been able to put them up here.

2 nights ago we had an armed robbery at the house at 1.40 a.m Used the radio to get help and the police, dogs and security arrived within 5 - 10 minutes. The robbers managed to outrun the dogs up the mountain.

We are heading back to Nairobi tomorrow for 10 days to renew our visas and to have a break.

Post by **Mud Dog** » Sat May 21, 2011 11:31 am

2 nights ago we had an armed robbery at the house at 1.40 a.m Used the radio to get help and the police, dogs and security arrived within 5 - 10 minutes. The robbers managed to outrun the dogs up the mountain.

What's that saying .... "it never rains but it pours" ...... looks like you guys have been through a deluge!

.... and as for outrunning dogs, uphill nogal ..... those guys must be 'on some special stuff' and some serious cross-country training!

Keep the chins up .... at least that way you will be looking in the right direction.

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:17 pm

Since I last posted about this, the robberies continued but not for very long after we beefed up security to the max. What with fighting the fire and the baddies, let alone the insurance people, something had to give, so in July, I was taken ill suddenly after my heart packed up and spent a week in ICU at the end of July. The battle with the insurance company carried on until they settled at the end of August. I am now in the position of being able to post up some photos of the house and mountain post fire to help put things into perspective. The rebuild continues and I am feeling very positive about the future. The fire took out thousands of trees and we are also doing our best to clear the mountain of the burnt trees and new alien vegetation.

I had a stroke of luck yesterday when we noticed the Hilux was having a problem shifting into gear. We found fluid leaking from the clutch and managed to get it to the garage today. The master slave cylinder was replaced and no other harm was done. It did not cost a fortune to repair = good result

Post by **Family_Dog** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:41 pm

Geez Phil, glad things have started to turn for the better now. Please keep us posted during your progress and lay on the pics! ;)

-F_D

chopper · Post by **chopper** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:19 pm

What an awesome view

I trust you can sit "you know where" and stare out into the wild blue yonder

Post by **Mud Dog** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:04 am

What an awesome panoramic view! So much more the pity IRO the fire damage!

Hope that you're much better now, .... nothing as sobering as a ticker problem!

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:25 am

I have lots more photos pre and post fire. A few more sent to me by a commercial airline pilot who was flying over at 14,000 feet at the time. I could not write about the fire whilst we were in negotiations with the insurance company and given that some of their reps drive the hilux 4X4 I had to be careful, even though I have never identified the name of the company.

I am much better now and you would be possibly surprised to see that the ticker problem was caused by dehydration from a diuretic I had been taking for blood pressure. This drained my body of electrolytes and what with uncontrollable high blood pressure, I slipped away. I got to Accident and Emergency in Vergelegen just in time. The docs told me wife, another 30 minutes and I would have been with the angels for good. I have regular check-ups, bloods etc, and and am more careful to drink water.

My good wishes goes out to the fire fighters, the chopper pilots and the police who get called into having to deal with major incidents such as the one we lived through. Brave men and women they all are.

Thanks MD and fellow members for your kindness. I will put some photos up a bit later.

Phil

Post by **CasKru** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:35 am

This is a bit off topic but...

Talking about high blood pressure. Do yourself a huge favour. Start drinking 2 teaspoons apple cider vinegar 3 times a day in a glass of water. I used to have high blood pressure and was about to apply for a life insurance policy. So I read about ACV and the benefits it has. I had my physical two weeks after starting with the ACV and my BP was perfect.

When you purchase the ACV, make sure you get the unfiltered raw vinegar with "the mother".

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:22 am

Thanks Cassie for that suggestion. I will get some over the weekend and try it out.
It was discovered that I have an aortic aneurysm and it is vital that my blood pressure is kept
low to normal so that the aneurysm does not burst. I am waiting to have it repaired.

If the Apple Cider Vinegar works on me, so much the better. Natural is preferred every time to pills.

Much appreciated Cassie

Post by **CasKru** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:03 am

Die beste is Braggs...

As jy dit nie in die hande kan kry nie (soos ek op die oomblik) sal die ander ook werk.

Ek gebruik op die oomblik die

As jy online wil koop (ek koop by 'n health shop in Centurion) - http://www.freshearth.co.za/store/p-866 ... 500ml.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **Mud Dog** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:25 pm

Geez Phil!

An aortic aneurysm!! :wth: Yoh! You are being tested to the limits!!

Take it very carefully with that thing ... it's a ticking time-bomb, and we don't want to loose you now. How long before the repair is scheduled? We will keep you and yours in our prayers!

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:54 pm

Hi Andy

I am to have a scan in 6 months time. I saw a specialist at Christian Barnard in Cape Town and he explained everything to me. He said techniques and the artificial tubes they use are improving all of the time. As soon as it reaches 5 cms or causes problems they will carry out the repair. He did say that should it burst I will be dead within 20 minutes. That was tough for my wife and myself to hear.

On the positive side I view like it is a second chance at life, a warning and I know it is there. I have been told I am not to partake in contact sports like rugby! or to carry anything heavy on my tummy. It is quite common and was found through a routine ultra sound scan. Fortunately I took out life insurance years ago as well as a private health plan. Up until last July, I had never made a claim. Apparently it usually shows up in men between the age of 60 - 70. I exercise, do not smoke and do not drink. I try to keep fit as I know that one day, any day I will need to be fit to have the operation. Then I will do the best I can.

The fire, the robberies and this aneurysm is a test and I plan to see it all through. When I was in 'crash' I said a prayer 'dear lord do not take me just yet as I still have more work to do'
I know he listened.

Thanks for your prayers. That is really kind of you all.

Putting that picture up Cassie of the Apple Cider vinegar and the relationship to Mother :) explains everything. Now I see.....

What I have written about could have happened to anyone. I am no one special, just an ordinary man like all of us here ( ladies included if you know what I mean).

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:40 pm

We had to sell the Hilux and a dealer bought it from us at R 71,000 in part exchange.

I hate to say it but we have now bought a 2002 Mazda 2.5 Td D/C 4x4 with diff.

I would have loved to have bought another Hilux but there was not one in our price range and we needed a 4x4 urgently. I plan to stick around as this is a great club and forum

OOOOMS · Post by **OOOOMS** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:57 am

Hi Phil, sorry you had to sell your lux, Mazda 2.5 not a bad vehicle at all, but hey, at the end of the day we all have the same interest

Please keep us updated with the progress and hope you get things sorted out quick

Post by **Mud Dog** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:22 am

Hi again Phil. Pity about the Lux, but sometimes we are forced into certain decisions. Irrespective, I'm glad to hear that you will be sticking around and of course you are more than welcome!

Here's hoping that things start looking up for you and yours from here on, after all, a positive attitude like yours cannot be held down for too long and triumph over your circumstances is just a matter of perseverance. All the best!

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:53 pm

I do not have anything except for admiration for you guys and ladies who have been a rock of support here. I have not seen anything like it anywhere and that is saying something.

Thanks for your words and thoughts :)

Gate Keeper · Post by **Gate Keeper** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:10 pm

I came across some more photos yesterday and wanted to share some of them here.

The house is nearly finished and we now feel more prepared for the next time a wild fire hits us.

I hope that the Mazda will do us just as proud as the Lux did us over the past year.

Post by **Mud Dog** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:26 am

Thanks for those pics, Phil. Puts it all into perspective a little better. Sad to see such devastation to land and property!