Roy is dead! Long lives Roy! Praise be to God!

[sabiankahn]

Hi all

Seems the bottom end job that Shaun et al did, didn't last. Johan from JS made me aware of the bearing noise and the waterpump that is in its chops as well.

So against the will of my pocket I have to either rebuild or get a new engine. Johan reckons that a rebuild might not work out so well seeing as the top has already been skimmed etc etc.

I'm thinking new engine. He can get me a taiwanees motor that includes everything for 8k. 2k to put it in and another 2k or so to sort the brake cylinder etc.

Any opinions? Where can I shop for a motor, is 8k a good price for a complete unit? Need help fast seeing as I use the bakkie as a daily and can't "borrow" a car infinitum.

Thanks in advance!

[Spartan]

For 8K you can buy a L6 but then there is still allot to do and still allot of $$ to pay, but 8K for a plug and play unit I think is good

[sabiankahn]

Spoke to Hoppy. He reckons the 4y rebuild is a better option than getting a Taiwan special. Says the Taiwans go well for 20k kms and then start chopping off...

Decisions decisions...

[Spartan]

Wel jy kan maar luister vir hoppy hy sien die goed elke dag

[the BuTch3R]

No dude That's not even funny, what a complete u-turn that news must have on the excitement you where enjoying a week ago.
Should you not perhaps get a second opinion before you start budgeting for recons and new engines. That motor was running beautifully. I'm convinced the noise Johan has picked up is something else less serious. Please keep us updated on your findings.

[Mr_B]

I know Allan's rebuilds are decent, and I would suggest this route... but another option is to buy a ching chong engine minus all the auxiliaries(carb, alternator, starter motor, etc...), that way you can reduce the cost and the problems some guys experience with the ching chong engines is often the auxiliaries rather than the engine block/head... also check the head bolts torque, don't just assume because it's a new engine, it's been done properly!

Again, personally I'd get Hoppy to do a rebuild... my 5 cents worth!

[Mr_B]

Now that you mention it Shaun, the timing chain sounded like it needed replacing last I heard it!

[Jaco Versfeld]

Another option is to get the Chinese (Korean) sub-assembly engine from Commercial. When I was in a similar situation, I opted for the sub-assembly - head + block + sump (R5500 - R6500). I fitted all the other parts - alternator etc. from the old engine. I did use genuine Toyota coolant, and replaced the thermostat immediately with a good quality Toyota one, though.

According the 20k km theory, I will have to wait and see. I am at 11000km now and with the EFI, I now get 8km/l here in the highveld. We have just returned from Namibia, and I didn't experience any problems (3000km tar + 500 kms hard 4x4 - Dry riverbeds, thick sand, rocks, etc). I know that Rich (Dadz Toy) lost a Commercial engine due to the fact that he fitted the wrong sump - taxi sump and not Hilux sump - so that case I will disregard. Other than that, I don't know of any problems.

Speak to Eric Skeen (FD - Family_Dog) as well, it would be interesting to know how many kilos Bulldog has done with the generic (Chinese) engine.

First prize would be to rebuild the Toyota engine with good (quality equivalent to Toyota or better) parts, but at R8000 (new Commercial engine installed, and ready to go) you will not be able to do a good quality rebuild.

It would be interesting to hear from other guys that have experienced problems with the Commercial engines... (Please note the distinction between Commercial's engines, and the other Chinese engines. The engines from Midas/ Autozone etc is not of a good quality. Rumor is that apparently the Taxi owners were quite upset with the poor quality engines, therefore Commercial now only stock the better quality fong kongs...)

Some guys also talk about the genuine 4y engines coming from Japan, with 100k - 150k km on. These are more of a gamble, to me anyways, as the Commercial engines, because you don't know if the engine comes out of a forklift or not...

Just m2cw

[Family_Dog]

Bulldog has only done about 11000km with his new Chinese transplant, and the engine is purring happily along. I had the head re-torqued a while ago, and it was spot on, not even necessary. But there must be four or five Chinese manufacturers of these engines, the one I have (which was supplied as a complete unit but without the alternator) seems to be one of the better ones. I have seen some obviously cheaper-built ones as well, with rough castings.

Use your original sump, starter and fan and you should be A-OK!


-F_D

[sabiankahn]

Thanks for all the advice guys!

Situation at the moment. I'm lank frustrated because I am slammed at work. Having the kind of work where you are always on the move makes driving a broken thing around very well, worrying. Ok, problems aside.

Took Roy to Hoppy yesterday. 2 Meccies 2 opinions. Meccie1 thinks bearings meccie 2 thinks piston. 1 conclusion though, engine rebuild. Meccie 1 is asking more money and it will take longer. Meccie 2 asks less and can do it sooner. Either way I have to get it done and can't drive like this (and I mean driving on egg shells) for much longer.

Decisions to make and money to be begged borrowed and stolen. Not really stealing money, more of a metaphor.

Anyhow, gonna go for a rebuild and not a fong kong. Hoppy convinced me that rebuild is the way to go.

I'll let you all know how things progress...

And shame, Shaun has been calling me alot, he feels real bad about it. So please don't think he sold me a problem bakkie, it seems it just happened that way. Sad but that is life

[Mr_B]

An engine with a bit of piston slap isn't going to just kill over and die... so don't stress too much!

[sabiankahn]

An engine with a bit of piston slap isn't going to just kill over and die... so don't stress too much!

Not so much piston slap as a very discomforting noise at 3000rpm just before accelerating and lifting off. Sounds like a diesel for those few moments.... Loud clack clack clack but disappears again. When doing 110-120 on the highway (at 3k rpm) that noise is there the whole time. Which isn't very nice. It still pulls strongly, it's just making the wrong noises :-(

[JohanM]

Renier, Im sure you'll be happy once mr Hoppy has sorted your 4Y out. Mine has a slight noise when warming up in the mornig, I suspect it being a sticky/noisy lifter and will look into it at some stage.

[Spartan]

it's just making the wrong noises

Ek hou duimvas dat dit nie te erenstig is nie

[Hi-Hilux]

Renier, my lux het ook toe ek hom gekry het hierdie diesel klank in hom, het ook valve lifters vervang en die die diesel klank isn nog steeds daar, het al aan alle dinge gedink soos bearings of big end bearings, maar my ondervinding met bearings is dat as hy begin raas breek hulle daarna, so die meeste antwoorde wat ek kry is ook maar piston slap of gudeon pin (verskoon spelling). Aangesien niemand vir my regtig kan se wat dit is nie, ry ek hom so, die dag as dit breek dan weet ek wat dit was. Ry nou al 3000kilos met die diesel geluid en my lux loop goed, en gebruik nie water of olie nie, rook ook nie...

[Mr_B]

Renier, my lux het ook toe ek hom gekry het hierdie diesel klank in hom, het ook valve lifters vervang en die die diesel klank isn nog steeds daar, het al aan alle dinge gedink soos bearings of big end bearings, maar my ondervinding met bearings is dat as hy begin raas breek hulle daarna, so die meeste antwoorde wat ek kry is ook maar piston slap of gudeon pin (verskoon spelling). Aangesien niemand vir my regtig kan se wat dit is nie, ry ek hom so, die dag as dit breek dan weet ek wat dit was. Ry nou al 3000kilos met die diesel geluid en my lux loop goed, en gebruik nie water of olie nie, rook ook nie...

Trevor is it not SWAMBO knocking on the back window, from the loadbin side... trying to get your attention... sounds alot like a bearing knock... but can be life threatening if ignored for too long!

[Spartan]

Persoonlik dink ek dit is piston slap Hier is n verduidelikking van wat gebeur.

The "slap" is the piston skirt, the bottom "ears", of the piston, slapping the cylinder walls because of excess wear in the cylinder. There's only supposed to be a few thousands of an inch clearance and when the walls wear past a certain amount, the piston will rock back and forth in the cylinder instead of staying straight. This causes the skirts to hit the walls. A cold engine will produce more slap than one at temp. That's due to the heat will cause the piston to "grow" when heated and take up some of the slack. Cast pistons expand less that forged aluminum pistons. Most cars have cast aluminum pistons. So, if you're hearing actual piston slap, you've probably got an engine that needs a good rebuild with a boring, new pistons and rings, reground crankshaft, and everything else that's made to wear.

[the BuTch3R]

An engine with a bit of piston slap isn't going to just kill over and die... so don't stress too much!

Not so much piston slap as a very discomforting noise at 3000rpm just before accelerating and lifting off. Sounds like a diesel for those few moments.... Loud clack clack clack but disappears again. When doing 110-120 on the highway (at 3k rpm) that noise is there the whole time. Which isn't very nice. It still pulls strongly, it's just making the wrong noises :-(

I'm still convinced the engine is good, and not just saying that because I sold you the bakkie . The motor pulls strong, no smoke whatsoever, minimal oil usage, and the bottom end has brand new quality bearings and a clean crank.

The noise you're hearing/describing sounds very much like the timing chain & tensioner I mentioned needed replacement. It's worse at higher speeds and by playing slighty with the accelerator the sound comes and goes (loudest at the moment just before back compression when the chain changes shape).

There's obviously now harm in a rebuild and the motor will then give you another 300,000kms and peace of mind, but I don't think it's as urgent as you believe it to be. :problem:

PS -When I purchased the bakkie a year ago, I found a receipt for a complete overhaul done at 267000 kms.

[sabiankahn]

I know! That first meccie made me parenoid, thus projecting my parenoia on Hoppy. I need to get an opinion from someone who hasn't been involved in any of these discussions. Too many cooks! Today only my mind has changed like 7 times between booking it in and leaving it. For vark steaks people!

[ThysdJ]

Just a small suggestion. Go get every opinion you want from every single mechie in Cape Town or even the Western Cape, then when all is said and done, get Hoppy to fix it for you...

[kfxnando]

1st, dont know much about these motors!!

however on the V6 also have a horrible noise that I also though was a bearing, also asked 50 people for their opinion, eventually, it turns out its the hydraulic lifters, a common problem on the type of motor that I have!!
however me 100% sure its the lifters!!
in your case if its not the lifters it could end up destroying the motor!!

small ends, or gudgeon pin noise is also difficult to diagnose from the outside!!

best is to strip down!!

good luck!!

[sabiankahn]

Raaaait - Here is how it flows

Took it to Jacques for a third opinion. Didn't tell him anything, so a non biased opinion could be formed. His conclusion is that something is definitely wrong and he thinks most likely cause to be the big end bearing. After his diag I told him about the work done. He said that if the conrod-connection-to-the-crank were already oval then that can re-damage new bearings.

So the conclusion is that the engine needs an open up no matter how you look at it.

Here came my next predicament. I have 3 similar diagnosis from 3 equally competent meccies. 2 of the quotes are very close and the other is a bit more pricey, but all are in range.

How do you choose now? Seeing as all the usual criteria were too close, I had to choose the meccie I connected with the best. It's a personal choice and not based on anything but my own feeling.

Roy will be booking in to Jacques clinic next week and if all goes well and the work doesn't get too expensive we might see Roy roll out on new leafs as well.

Results and analysis will be posted. Peekchairs might be at a minimum but I'll see what I can do.

[Mud Dog]

Good luck!!

[King Rat]

I'm still convinced the engine is good, and not just saying that because I sold you the bakkie . The motor pulls strong, no smoke whatsoever, minimal oil usage, and the bottom end has brand new quality bearings and a clean crank.

Who did the motor when you had it, how do you know it's quality? Anyway, I don't think it's bearings, as the engine would've cried enough already? This is a bad one, btw, who or what company is Jacques?

I thought I read something somewhere about ROY: here is a whole thread about the rebuild. In my humble opinion the conrod is bent because of fluid lock of the oil in no 1 cyclinder and that is why there is possible piston slap. I don't think the crank is bent(have it checked anyway) as well but you will probably need to do all the main and big end bearings again. Sorry for the bad news...
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9018&hilit=coolant&start=40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ok... folks... a little update on the restoration of Roy's bottom end...

Yesterday we completed the fitment of the engine... special attention was paid to fitting new intake/exhaust studs and installing of the intake/exhaust manifolds, cause previously these were a major problem, leaking badly... with everything complete we added the new coolant(toyota brand, not amstel) and poured in the oil, alas we forgot to put the spark plugs back in... hence cylinder no.1 and to lesser extent no.2 filled up with oil... oops... we cranked the engine over to clear the oil from the cylinders... with that done... fitted the spark plugs... but she didn't want to crank to well... she was straining on the no.1 compression stroke... I pulled the plugs out again... dang... oil still in no.1 cylinder... cleared the oil out... crank the engine... hooray she started beautifully... purring... very smooth... unfortunately the utopian state lasted for about 1 minute... the engine speed slowed down and she died... after much soul searching and deliberation(and some diagnostic testing)... I realised the engine had locked, something had seized... to cut a long story short... we removed to sump, checked the main bearing... all 100%... checked the big ends... alas cylinder no.1's bearings had taken a beating... after removing the no.1 bearing the engine turned fine gain... I gave Allan a call to confirm my suspicion and sure enough the bit of oil left in the no.1 cylinder had caused abnormally high compression on no.1... leading to the bearing damage... fortunately no other damaged occured, the crank is still 100% smooth and polished... and we can simply fit another set of big end bearing, fit the sump again and fire her up... as usual I learnt another valuable lesson about engine building, even a small bit of oil in the cylinders can be very detrimental... next time I'll be a little more careful before putting the oil in... spark plugs first! Wednesday evening we'll complete the repair and report back! You win some, you lose some.... you live and you learn ne'

mr b

[sabiankahn]

Thanks Coenraad. Jacques is a meccie based in Parow. SFA owner and all round good guy. He'll be taking the whole engine apart so look for the problem, so I'm sure he'll find out what the problem is. I did tell him there is a post about what has been done to Roy, so he will check it out. I'll mail him the link just in case anyway.

Thanks all!

[the BuTch3R]

In my humble opinion the conrod is bent because of fluid lock

Coenie, you may be onto something here. The lock may have done more damage than we had thought. :problem: What do you think B?

Jacques would need to take a look though.

Still puzzles me a bit. Would've expected to notice this immediately afterwards or at least see it gradually worsen. Not just suddenly overnight after 6months of purring along trips and trails.

I really struggled to come to terms with selling it, purely because of how well it was going after the crank repair & minor overhaul. We really went out of our way to do a proper job, no shortcuts.

[Mr_B]

If the conrod is bent slightly(in thous) it could lead to excessive gudgeon pin wear, but the first point of strain would be on the big end bearing... the aluminum coating would take a pounding quick quick... and the bearing would soon run metal to metal and seize... it is a well known fact that the 4Y engine is prone to piston slap, especially after a bore out and new oversized pistons are fitted... why? because the 4Y piston is a short skirt piston... the piston side wall is not high at all... any wear on the piston wall and/or cylinder wall turn to slap quickly! That's exactly why Allan bores the engine and sleeves it... and fits new standard size pistons... the rebuild simply lasts much longer... this is not common practice on a 4Y rebuild but makes alot of sense!

When the bottom end of Roy was overhauled, we decided not to redo the top end, simply to keep costs down, and the engine was running well up until the crank keyway broke!

Mr B

[King Rat]

If the conrod is bent slightly(in thous) it could lead to excessive gudgeon pin wear, but the first point of strain would be on the big end bearing... the aluminum coating would take a pounding quick quick...

When the bottom end of Roy was overhauled, we decided not to redo the top end, simply to keep costs down, and the engine was running well up until the crank keyway broke!

Mr B

Depends on how it is (possibly) bent?
If the crank keyway breaks, does it not point to other issues as well, especially because you replaced the key as part of the job?

[Mr_B]

If the conrod is bent slightly(in thous) it could lead to excessive gudgeon pin wear, but the first point of strain would be on the big end bearing... the aluminum coating would take a pounding quick quick...

When the bottom end of Roy was overhauled, we decided not to redo the top end, simply to keep costs down, and the engine was running well up until the crank keyway broke!

Mr B

Depends on how it is (possibly) bent?
If the crank keyway breaks, does it not point to other issues as well, especially because you replaced the key as part of the job?

Coenie, the keyway breaking was the original reason for starting the job... hence why the crank needed replacing... old crank keyway was damaged beyond repair... it looked to me like the key was not installed properly... the damage was done prior to Shaun buying the bakkie!

[King Rat]

Poor Roy seems to have had a rough life. Hopefully it get fixed now by Jacques. Luckily I can do my learning out of other people’s experiences. Keep us updated!

[the BuTch3R]

Poor Roy seems to have had a rough life. Hopefully it get fixed now by Jacques. Luckily I can do my learning out of other people’s experiences. Keep us updated!

No, I wouldn't pity the old guy just yet. He's definitely not troubled, but rather EXPERIENCED. Turns 21 this year. :party:

[sabiankahn]

Ok, so for those of you who don't believe in the power of prayer, get ready to believe!

I've been away for a week, so I asked my dad to take Roy to Jacques for his appointment. Friday Jacques phones me. Poor guy had a tooth extracted! Anyway, says the noise is gone! My dad didn't hear anything on the way there and Jacques and I both heard the noise when I had Roy there and now, nothing...

It's a miracle people!

Waterpump needs to be replaced and I asked for the timing chain to be done as well. Gonna get new oil etc. I'm still deciding about new leafs. I'll have to check the budget out first... But all in all good news!

The lights btw were a problem at the roadworthy. The brights didn't come on with the spots. Seems the whole shebang was wired up incorrectly. When we inspected the problem, we also saw that the brights and dimms were cross connected. This after taking the dash and the switch apart to troubleshoot the problem. Wired it all up correctly and put some magic spray on and it now works great. Disconnected the spots though...

If someone has a decent pair of front leafs lying around for donation or a small fee, please send them my way :-)

Renzo out

[OOOOMS]

Now that's good news, Renier

[Mr_B]

That's great news Renier... last week on the way to Boegoeberg I had a hydraulic lifter ticking away, very annoying and a bit concerning since the lifters are pretty new... then yesterday when I arrived at Shaun's place I heard the noise again louder, decided to investigate, bonnet open... tick tick ticking is alot louder... after much stressing I figured out that the one sump protector plate nut was a little loose... problem fixed...

So ya... glad to hear Roy is running!

Mr B

[swartvark]

Like with any other IMMORTAL the SFA will heal itself.
The only way to stop one is by taking off its HEAD. Hehehe.

[Spartan]

The only way to stop one is by taking off its HEAD

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE

[Mud Dog]

You been watching too much "Highlander", Jaco!

[the BuTch3R]

Glad (and relieved) to hear this Renier. Even though the oil should still be fresh, maybe you want to replace with something a little thicker now, designed for older motors. Just to prevent parts from running astray.

[sabiankahn]

Quick update. Got Roy back from Jacques. Oil and other stuff replaced, Timing chain done, Points, Rear prop universal, Brakes adjusted. The noise that bothered me and that Shaun thought was the timing chain is still there. I think I've made my peace with it though.

Engine pulls really nicely, still no smoke, idles well.... And it's on my name now!

Haven't done the suspension yet, looking at my options at the mo.

Update done, as you were gentlemen

[Mr_B]

Now take it and go play for a while(lots)... then decide on the mods...

[sabiankahn]

Now take it and go play for a while(lots)... then decide on the mods...

Ai ai kap'n!

[sabiankahn]

OK, so the joy was short lived. I took my parents for a short journey into the off road and while tackling some low range obsticles you could really hear the bearings complain. My dad (who has hit a bearing or 6 in his life) was like "That sounds bad" and I was like "Darn".

So Roy went off to Jacques again on Friday. We listened and because you only really hear the bearings clearly when the engine is nice and warm Jacques missed it a bit while Roy was there the first time.

So on 6 Sept Roy will undergo surgery. Jacques might also look into doing some suspension fixes for me. I'd also like to get some guages like Oil pressure etc fitted while we're at it and maybe replace the clutch that sounds like it's making a bad noise.

After this Roy should be good to go! Our church is having a 4x4 fundraiser and if Roy is ready before then it'll be my first event! :-)

[sabiankahn]

Just an update, Roy is in and under the knife. Will let you know how it progresses :-)

[sabiankahn]

oooooookeeeeeeee

Loooong radio silence, sorry. I left for India on the 17th of September, got back on the 3rd of Okt, was sick for a week after that and then work bombarded me, so here is the update!

I took Roy (or as I now affectionately call him, Rooibaard die derde) a week before going to India. Got him back a week after, so Jacques had a month to make sure Roy got the best possible treatment.

In short, the conrods were the cause of the bearing problem. It also seems like the first rebuild was incorrectly assembled, so when Shaun redid the bearings he had false info to work with and so none of this is his fault.

OK, so bearings replaced, conrods resized, crank done, new piston rings. Head is fine. I also asked Jacques to service my suspension and he did a saddle correction, bent the leafes to fit on the saddle correction, greased them etc. Now the front looks good again because the leafs are sitting straight.

I also asked Jacques to put some guages in. He has a water system pressure guage in his bakkie and I liked the idea that I got one of those. Also got an oil pressure and oil temp guage put in. I like to know what is going on, so my geekside is very excited about that. They are mounted on the A-pillar (photos later) and my boy racer side is also now happy :-)

All in all, I need to get the bakkie back to J in 3000km for a torque up and new oil, but she is running very nicely at the moment. I am thinking of taking the canopy off for summer time (whenever that arrives) and also to accommodate odd shaped things that I'll need to transport soon.

India hit my pocket hard, so no mods for a while. I'd love to do the operators course sometime, but will have to save first. But I am looking forward to my first trip! I'll keep my peepers on the forum to see when and where in the WC the next shindig is (apart from the record attempt)

[the BuTch3R]

Good news Renier!
Glad to hear Roy, ag, Rooibaard is back in action.

..so we'll see you at the Be-a-Blessing outing then