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3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

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Mars
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3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Mars » Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:16 am

If you do some research on this and other local sites it is quite apparent that many guys are experiencing issues with the clutch on their D4Ds. The symptoms are typically that the clutch pedal starts to sag or get harder to depress (the pressure that is required to depress the pedal gradually gets harder and harder over time and is therefore not that noticeable). Gear changes also get more notchy/harder, engaging reverse gradually becomes more difficult and in some instances they start getting shudder on take off. The problem is almost invariably traced to the master cylinder or sometimes the clutch accumulator. In one or two instances the clutch slave cylinder also started leaking. I have gone through the exact same sequence of events. See http://www.hilux4x4.co.za/views/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=25494 and this thread where I ended up replacing the clutch accumulator. http://www.hilux4x4.co.za/views/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=36142 On Thursday afternoon my clutch again lost pressure on my way home and I ended up driving in peak traffic without a clutch - not a pleasant experience :blackeye:. MY Brother's 3lt D4D 4x2 had the exact same issues and after replacing both the master and slave cylinder the problem was still there. You could bleed the system perfectly but the first time you depress the clutch after bleeding it would simply "collapse". We replaced the clutch on his bakkie and the problem went away. The bakkie had done 120 000 ks.

I have been expecting to replace the clutch on my bakkie for some time and had fortunately already bought a clutch kit and spigot bearing. I was actually planning on replacing the clutch next weekend as soon as I had finished installing the adjustable front suspension on my Porsche Spyder replica that I built. Thursday evening I removed the gearbox and found the exact same thing as with the clutch on my Brother's D4D. In both instances the OEM clutch was made by LUK. In both instances there is no visual indication of any problems with either the clutch plate or pressure plate. My clutch plate still had more than 30% of its friction material left before reaching the minimum wear (this after 245 000 ks) and my brothers had more than 50% left. Both clutch plates had some wear on the fingers where the thrust bearing runs when the clutch is disengaged, slightly more on mine but still within spec.

In both instances the pressure required for the pressure plate to release had become so great that the hydraulic system could not handle the pressure anymore and the seals failed. In my case the front seal in the master cylinder had ruptured through the back of the seal (it literally burst through the back) and the bearing/sealing surfaces of the seal on the piston was completely frayed and worn away.

On Friday I took the flywheel in for skimming and then used the time to get a rear crankshaft oil seal from Toyota. The flywheel still looked fine and did not have any uneven wear or hot spots on it but I believe in skimming a flywheel whenever I replace a clutch. The oils seal wasn't leaking but it is such a job to remove the gearbox that it is a good idea to replace it while it is possible. This was the most expensive oil seal I have ever bought at R729. I bought the original Toyota seal as it has directional grooves in it ensuring a better seal and you are guaranteed of the quality of the Toyota seals.

I replaced the clutch with a Sachs clutch that I bought from Goldwagen for R3100. It came in a Sachs box but the clutch and pressure plate are both etched with Aisin Brand marks and part numbers so either Sachs is making clutches for Aisin or they are sourcing some of their clutches from Aisin. Either way is no issue for me as both brands are excellent quality.

I re-installed the gearbox on Friday night and finished the job on Saturday morning. What a surprise!!!! The clutch went from feeling like the clutch on an old Tractor to that of a 1300 Corolla. I simply could not believe it. Like I said earlier you get used to the clutch pressure building up gradually over time so you do not really notice how hard it gets..... until the seals start failing.

We also installed a Sachs clutch kit in my Brothers D4D and the experience was exactly the same. He came to my place yesterday and I felt the clutch pedal on his again. It still feels the same after almost a year.

Not only is the clutch pedal unbelievably light when compared to the old clutch but the gear shifts are also much, much lighter with absolutely no notchiness. It feels like a brand new gearbox! The total cost of the job was R4304. R3100 - Sachs Clutch kit, R729 - Oil Seal, R75 - Original Toyota Spigot Bearing which I bought from Toyota as no-one could tell me the size of the bearing (a sealed 6201 bearing) and R400 to skim the flywheel. Interestingly the spigot bearing I removed is a NSK bearing which was made in China. It is actually still perfect but I chose to replace it as well while the gearbox is out.

I could have bought a LUK kit for R500 less but I am now convinced in my own mind that I will never buy a LUK clutch again.

I will post a detailed post on how to replace the clutch as soon as I have the time.
Last edited by Mars on Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Rollercoaster639
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Rollercoaster639 » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:44 am

Mars you seem to know a fair amount about this clutch issue. Please give me some advise. I have a 2010 legend 40 single cab. Since day one the clutch stinks as if one is riding the clutch as soon as it is put under any stress. Toyota have replaced the clutch twice already so I am on my third clutch.(have less than 60k on the clock) It still does this. They now say after all this it is because I have too much weight on the bakkie. Long story made short, I am not going to waste any more time with Toyota.
The clutch is original Toyota clutch.

Is there any other clutch or complete clutch kit available to me besides the original clutch. I dont know if it is available but I am thinking of a heavy duty clutch which I can install. I am 100% sure that the bakkie is not overloaded.

If there is a heavy duty clutch or a better clutch available can you please point me in the right direction. Just for your info my clutch pedal is not hard and I have not experienced the problems you are describing above.
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Wave » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:22 am

Thanx for the info, I'll keep this in mind on our Tuna ;)
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Mars
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Mars » Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:18 pm

Hi Barry. In my research on the internet I have seen some instances of guys moaning about a smelly clutch and also under hard conditions such as pulling an off-road trailer through thick sand. I also saw your other post and must say that I can only really speculate to some extent.

The only time that a clutch plate will stink is when it heats up due to clutch slipping. This could be because the clutch plate is worn and the pressure plate does not grip the clutch plate tightly enough, slipping the clutch too much on purpose due to pulling away on an incline with a heavy freight/trailer or in heavy conditions such as sand (i.e. riding the clutch) or if there is something wrong with the pressure plate causing it not to grip the clutch plate tight enough. Some people also tend to ride the clutch to hold the vehicle stationary on an incline whilst waiting for the robot to change. Another possible reason could be that the clutch actuation mechanism is so tight that it does not allow the pressure plate to release fully (such as a very sticky clutch cable) or an improperly adjusted clutch.

Given your situation I'm going to assume that you are already sensitive about the clutch and would not hammer or slip it unduly. I also think it is safe to assume that the clutch plate is not worn enough to start slipping. When the hydraulic system fails the clutch will always go to its fully released state (lever fully released - Clutch fully engaged) so it is not that either. I am also hoping that the clutch would have been adjusted correctly by Toyota. This leaves us with only the pressure plate.

According to what my research and personal experience has shown the LUK pressure plates fitted OEM to the (I am assuming) South African Hiluxes is suspect.

My first question would be if Toyota replaced the clutch plate and pressure plate both times or only the clutch plate? If they did not replace the pressure plate then I would be fairly certain that it is in fact the pressure plate. If they did then they would have used LUK clutches, the pressure plate of which is already suspect to my mind. Considering that clutches are normally considered wear and tear items, the fact that Toyota so readily replaced the clutch twice, would seem to support my suspicion that there is something amiss with the clutches.

As far as replacement kits are concerned I am aware of four brands you can get. (There may be more) LUK, Sachs (ZF), Aisin (which seems to be made by Sachs anyway or vice versa) and PHC Valeo. When I enquired at Goldwagen they only listed one clutch kit for my Double Cab 4x4. This is the exact same clutch we got for my brothers 4x2 D4D Double Cab. They did not differentiate between a heavy duty and a normal duty clutch. Perhaps you can phone around and enquire from some brake and clutch specialists about that? I did see someone mention a Sachs heavy duty clutch.

If I were in your shoes I would do the following, First check and make sure that the clutch releases completely. The master cylinder rod is adjustable. Check if the rod completely retracts. If you check and listen very carefully you can feel if there is a small amount of travel before the rod comes into contact with the piston. If there isn't, release the lock nut on the rod and adjust the rod's length by screwing it into the pedal bracket until you can feel that free play when the clutch lever is in its top-most position. You can then back out the rod again until it lightly contacts the piston. If that is fine one would need to take out the gearbox to see what is going on. I would definitely have the fly wheel skimmed and replace the clutch with one of the other brands. Make sure that you get the flywheel skimmed and replace the clutch plate, pressure plate and thrust bearing (the bits that come in the kit).

Hope this will be of some assistance to you. I am sure some other forum members will chime in here soon enough.
Last edited by Mars on Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Umpalumpa » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:58 pm

Mars wrote:Hi Barry. In my research on the internet I have seen some instances of guys moaning about a smelly clutch and also under hard conditions such as pulling an off-road trailer through thick sand. I also saw your other post and must say that I can only really speculate to some extent.

The only time that a clutch plate will stink is when it heats up due to clutch slipping. This could be because the clutch plate is worn and the pressure plate does not grip the clutch plate tightly enough, slipping the clutch too much on purpose due to pulling away on an incline with a heavy freight/trailer or in heavy conditions such as sand (i.e. riding the clutch) or if there is something wrong with the pressure plate causing it not to grip the clutch plate tight enough. Some people also tend to ride the clutch to hold the vehicle stationary on an incline whilst waiting for the robot to change. Another possible reason could be that the clutch actuation mechanism is so tight that it does not allow the pressure plate to release fully (such as a very sticky clutch cable) or an improperly adjusted clutch.

Given your situation I'm going to assume that you are already sensitive about the clutch and would not hammer or slip it unduly. I also think it is safe to assume that the clutch plate is not worn enough to start slipping. When the hydraulic system fails the clutch will always go to its fully released state so it is not that either. I am also hoping that the clutch would have been adjusted correctly by Toyota. This leaves us with only the pressure plate.

According to what my research and personal experience has shown the LUK pressure plates fitted OEM to the (I am assuming) South African Hiluxes is suspect.

My first question would be if Toyota replaced the clutch plate and pressure plate both times or only the clutch plate? If they did not replace the pressure plate then I would be fairly certain that it is in fact the pressure plate. If they did then they would have used LUK clutches, the pressure plate of which is already suspect to my mind. Considering that clutches are normally considered wear and tear items, the fact that Toyota so readily replaced the clutch twice, would seem to support my suspicion that there is something amiss with the clutches.

As far as replacement kits are concerned I am aware of four brands you can get. (There may be more) LUK, Sachs (ZF), Aisin (which seems to be made by Sachs anyway or vice versa) and PHC Valeo. When I enquired at Goldwagen they only listed one clutch kit for my Double Cab 4x4. This is the exact same clutch we got for my brothers 4x2 D4D Double Cab. They did not differentiate between a heavy duty and a normal duty clutch. Perhaps you can phone around and enquire from some brake and clutch specialists about that? I did see someone mention a Sachs heavy duty clutch.

If I were in your shoes I would do the following, First check and make sure that the clutch releases completely. The master cylinder rod is adjustable. Check if the rod completely retracts. If you check and listen very carefully you can feel if there is a small amount of travel before the rod comes into contact with the piston. If there isn't, release the lock nut on the rod and adjust the rod's length by screwing it into the pedal bracket until you can feel that free play when the clutch lever is in its top-most position. You can then back out the rod again until it lightly contacts the piston. If that is fine one would need to take out the gearbox to see what is going on. I would definitely have the fly wheel skimmed and replace the clutch with one of the other brands. Make sure that you get the flywheel skimmed and replace the clutch plate, pressure plate and thrust bearing (the bits that come in the kit).

Hope this will be of some assistance to you. I am sure some other forum members will chime in here soon enough.


I think I have found the mechie to replace my clutch next time. And, you are in my valley...... I can see you know what you are talking about!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :applaud: :applaud:
Just a guy with a passion for 4x4.....
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Johan Kriel » Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:51 pm

Slipping clutches are caused by the brake fluid expansion under heat and pushes the clutch. The local Toy agent did a modification on mine, they insert a spacer on the master cylinder to allow the expansion.
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Mars
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Mars » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:07 am

Johan
I have been thinking this through from every angle and I must say that I think those guys fed you some wind. Whilst I accept that the brake fluid will expand to some extent when warming up I cannot for the life of me think that it can expand enough to partly depress the clutch release lever causing the clutch to slip. Brake fluid is formulated to work in brake systems that get much hotter than a clutch system can ever get. Under extreme conditions, such as racing conditions, the brake fluid can get so hot in the brake caliper that it can start to boil. That is if you do not use the correct DOT grading brake fluid and in extreme conditions they use a silicone based brake fluid. This only happens when the brake pads get so hot that they transfer enough heat to the calipers to cause the fluid to boil inside. This does not result in the brakes locking up due to increased pressure but rather reduces the braking ability due to the fact that the boiling bubbles are compressible. This causes the brakes pedal to become "spongy". If their theory was correct the brakes would start locking up if it brake fluid started getting hot.

The brake fluid in the clutch system is nowhere close enough to any source of heat to be able to get that hot. Even if you slipped the clutch to hell the contact surface from the clutch fingers to the thrust bearing, thrust bearing to the clutch fork, clutch fork to push rod of the slave cylinder is way too small to get the brake fluid hot enough. If what they told you were true then every vehicle used in very hot conditions would have a slipping clutch.

The second point is that the hydraulic system is a closed system containing a set amount of brake fluid that does not change unless there is a leak. There is nothing you can do to increase the volume in the system to compensate for expanding brake fluid unless the master cylinder adjustment push rod is exerting pressure on the piston, because it is not correctly adjusted, but then you can only increase the volume to the point where the rod is adjusted so that it does not make contact with the piston. At that point the piston is as far back as it can go and that will be the maximum volume the system can contain. Adding any spacer, inside the system, even if it is possible will only reduce the volume inside the system and will probably exacerbate the perceived problem. I cannot think where you would shim the master or slave cylinder and any shim in the line of thrust would only serve to decrease the maximum amount of travel in the system also worsening the perceived problem there as well. A shim between the master cylinder and the firewall will only change the position of the master cylinder and does not change the volume in the system. Any required adjustment there is already catered for in that the push rod can be adjusted (by quite a lot) as well as the pedal travel which can also be adjusted by a lot. As a matter of fact between the range of adjustment available in both the rod and pedal it is possible to adjust the clutch far enough backwards that it won't release the clutch when depressed.

So to make a long story short I simply don't buy the explanation they gave you. The only thing that they could have done would be to adjust the master cylinder push rod out so that it does not make contact on the piston Which means it was incorrectly adjusted to begin with. Why would they install a spacer when they can adjust both the rod as well as the clutch pedal backwards? You should go and ask your money back.
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby TheToy » Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:59 pm

Mars wrote:Johan
I have been thinking this through from every angle and I must say that I think those guys fed you some wind. Whilst I accept that the brake fluid will expand to some extent when warming up I cannot for the life of me think that it can expand enough to partly depress the clutch release lever causing the clutch to slip. Brake fluid is formulated to work in brake systems that get much hotter than a clutch system can ever get. Under extreme conditions, such as racing conditions, the brake fluid can get so hot in the brake caliper that it can start to boil. That is if you do not use the correct DOT grading brake fluid and in extreme conditions they use a silicone based brake fluid. This only happens when the brake pads get so hot that they transfer enough heat to the calipers to cause the fluid to boil inside. This does not result in the brakes locking up due to increased pressure but rather reduces the braking ability due to the fact that the boiling bubbles are compressible. This causes the brakes pedal to become "spongy". If their theory was correct the brakes would start locking up if it brake fluid started getting hot.

The brake fluid in the clutch system is nowhere close enough to any source of heat to be able to get that hot. Even if you slipped the clutch to hell the contact surface from the clutch fingers to the thrust bearing, thrust bearing to the clutch fork, clutch fork to push rod of the slave cylinder is way too small to get the brake fluid hot enough. If what they told you were true then every vehicle used in very hot conditions would have a slipping clutch.

The second point is that the hydraulic system is a closed system containing a set amount of brake fluid that does not change unless there is a leak. There is nothing you can do to increase the volume in the system to compensate for expanding brake fluid unless the master cylinder adjustment push rod is exerting pressure on the piston, because it is not correctly adjusted, but then you can only increase the volume to the point where the rod is adjusted so that it does not make contact with the piston. At that point the piston is as far back as it can go and that will be the maximum volume the system can contain. Adding any spacer, inside the system, even if it is possible will only reduce the volume inside the system and will probably exacerbate the perceived problem. I cannot think where you would shim the master or slave cylinder and any shim in the line of thrust would only serve to decrease the maximum amount of travel in the system also worsening the perceived problem there as well. A shim between the master cylinder and the firewall will only change the position of the master cylinder and does not change the volume in the system. Any required adjustment there is already catered for in that the push rod can be adjusted (by quite a lot) as well as the pedal travel which can also be adjusted by a lot. As a matter of fact between the range of adjustment available in both the rod and pedal it is possible to adjust the clutch far enough backwards that it won't release the clutch when depressed.

So to make a long story short I simply don't buy the explanation they gave you. The only thing that they could have done would be to adjust the master cylinder push rod out so that it does not make contact on the piston Which means it was incorrectly adjusted to begin with. Why would they install a spacer when they can adjust both the rod as well as the clutch pedal backwards? You should go and ask your money back.



:thumbup: Some solid advice,
It just gets me hot around the collar, when people feed others incorrect info.
They should become rocket scientists. We might would have been on Mars by now :lmao:
The outdoors is a place for Adventures. So, lets pack and head out for a great new Adventure.
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Rollercoaster639 » Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:50 am

Mars wrote:Hi Barry. In my research on the internet I have seen some instances of guys moaning about a smelly clutch and also under hard conditions such as pulling an off-road trailer through thick sand. I also saw your other post and must say that I can only really speculate to some extent.

The only time that a clutch plate will stink is when it heats up due to clutch slipping. This could be because the clutch plate is worn and the pressure plate does not grip the clutch plate tightly enough, slipping the clutch too much on purpose due to pulling away on an incline with a heavy freight/trailer or in heavy conditions such as sand (i.e. riding the clutch) or if there is something wrong with the pressure plate causing it not to grip the clutch plate tight enough. Some people also tend to ride the clutch to hold the vehicle stationary on an incline whilst waiting for the robot to change. Another possible reason could be that the clutch actuation mechanism is so tight that it does not allow the pressure plate to release fully (such as a very sticky clutch cable) or an improperly adjusted clutch.

Given your situation I'm going to assume that you are already sensitive about the clutch and would not hammer or slip it unduly. I also think it is safe to assume that the clutch plate is not worn enough to start slipping. When the hydraulic system fails the clutch will always go to its fully released state so it is not that either. I am also hoping that the clutch would have been adjusted correctly by Toyota. This leaves us with only the pressure plate.

According to what my research and personal experience has shown the LUK pressure plates fitted OEM to the (I am assuming) South African Hiluxes is suspect.

My first question would be if Toyota replaced the clutch plate and pressure plate both times or only the clutch plate? If they did not replace the pressure plate then I would be fairly certain that it is in fact the pressure plate. If they did then they would have used LUK clutches, the pressure plate of which is already suspect to my mind. Considering that clutches are normally considered wear and tear items, the fact that Toyota so readily replaced the clutch twice, would seem to support my suspicion that there is something amiss with the clutches.

As far as replacement kits are concerned I am aware of four brands you can get. (There may be more) LUK, Sachs (ZF), Aisin (which seems to be made by Sachs anyway or vice versa) and PHC Valeo. When I enquired at Goldwagen they only listed one clutch kit for my Double Cab 4x4. This is the exact same clutch we got for my brothers 4x2 D4D Double Cab. They did not differentiate between a heavy duty and a normal duty clutch. Perhaps you can phone around and enquire from some brake and clutch specialists about that? I did see someone mention a Sachs heavy duty clutch.

If I were in your shoes I would do the following, First check and make sure that the clutch releases completely. The master cylinder rod is adjustable. Check if the rod completely retracts. If you check and listen very carefully you can feel if there is a small amount of travel before the rod comes into contact with the piston. If there isn't, release the lock nut on the rod and adjust the rod's length by screwing it into the pedal bracket until you can feel that free play when the clutch lever is in its top-most position. You can then back out the rod again until it lightly contacts the piston. If that is fine one would need to take out the gearbox to see what is going on. I would definitely have the fly wheel skimmed and replace the clutch with one of the other brands. Make sure that you get the flywheel skimmed and replace the clutch plate, pressure plate and thrust bearing (the bits that come in the kit).

Hope this will be of some assistance to you. I am sure some other forum members will chime in here soon enough.


Hi Marrs. Thanks for the reply. The clutch still does stink now and again as mentioned but I am 100% sure I don't ride the clutch. What I will do now is to ride the bakkie as it is and when the time comes to change the clutch I will change all the components and have the flywheel skimmed as per your answer.

One thing I have been thinking about lately which might also have an effect on the clutch stinking is the so called "Turbo Lag". This lag might be "teaching you to slip the clutch" without you even knowing. This would be more apparent when in soft sand or also when you have a heavier trailer hooked up and you are trying to pull away quicker. Before the turbo kicks in there is really a noticeable lack of power and one really battles to get the revs up to where the turbo kicks in. I have sent the bakkie in to have them look at this and remap it if necessary. I have not had a chance to test it yet but my wife who has tested it said there is now a significant change for the positive. Once I have driven it I will be able to tell if there is an improvement. This will only be in three weeks time at which I head to Moz for a two week break.
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Johan Kriel » Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:53 pm

Mars what ever they did, it worked. The clutch was adjusted by several occasions and the whole clutch kid was replaced once with no success. The clutch shown hardly any wear. I myself adjusted it also a few times. I took it to 3 separate Toy agents, over that period, then went straight to the owner of Ritters Toyota, Mr Ritter himself, as I was gatvol for the kar at that time. As said I don't what he did but that's what he told explain to me me more or less what was the issue.

By the way I was told TSA took notice when the oldman Ritter's adviced them on certain issues.
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Mars » Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:37 am

I would really like to know what they did to your bakkie Johan.
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Johan Kriel » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:01 pm

Unfortunate the old man is not with us anymore.
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Mannetjie » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:43 am

Morning

Mars I can copy past your story about the clutch up till the point you get all technical. :D:

I nursed my Hilux (also 2005, the first ones that came out) also in peak traffic to a Toyota dealer to get fixed.
It worked after they fixed it.

I just bought a new 2014 Hilux (400km on the clock) and the first thing I realise, amongst all the bling, is that the clutch is so much lighter than the old one.

Do you or any one ells knows if Toyota use improved parts (clutch, pressure plate, cylinder) or will I will experience the same issue after a while?

Thank you
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Mars » Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:12 pm

I honestly don't know and I certainly hope so. It looks like they are now fitting a different clutch master cylinder made of metal and not the plastic one on the older models which leads me to think that they may have changed the whole clutch mechanism. What does the clutch master cylinder on your bakkie look like?

I keep on wondering about what could be causing the clutch getting harder and harder to depress over time and to my thinking it could be one of two things. As the fingers wear where the thrust bearing pushes the dimensions change very slightly and that could be causing it or the other possibility is that the springs work harden over time - if that is at all possible because normally springs would sag over time so I'm not sure.
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Joe-Tech » Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:46 am

Howzit guys.........Remember to adjust the clutch pedal free play to spec when replacing the clutch kit.........if you don't ,you will damage the thrust bearing and the pressure plate
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Joe-Tech » Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:54 am

Hey guys......If interested, I can get genuine Toyota parts for much cheaper
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Mars » Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:45 am

Thanks Joe. good advice. Good to know about the parts.
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby FERRIT » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:56 am

Hilux's have a weak clutch,I own a 2006 30lt D4D dual cab,I've owned alot of hilux's and love them,the only real problem with them is there clutch.My hilux used to make a spigot bearing noise almost from brand new,All the hilux's I know even at work it dosn't take much to smell it burning.The only way I get over it is to install a heavy duty clutch.In my 2006 I've installed a HEAVY DUTY EXEDY DAIKIN CLUTCH part # TYK-8006SMFHD. You can go twice higher extreme heavy duty or racing depends on how much you want to pay.You can buy all this on ebay,you should have a look it wont hurt.It might be an issue with your warranty,but see toyota. if you got the clutch they fit it, or they may have one at three times the price that you should pay.I hope this helps you,good luck.
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Mars » Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:03 am

Thanks for the part number Ferrit.
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Stuart Baak » Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:42 pm

Sorry but slightly O/T, any issues with the auto Box? Mine is at 106k km and no sign of anything wrong. Even under load/strain...
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Mars » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:52 am

There were some guys who had an issue of the automatic not engaging 5th gear. IIRC it was on V6 luxes. You should be able to find the thread with the search function.
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Stuart Baak » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:31 am

Ah I have the 4 spd so should be fine :lol:
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Mars » Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:43 am

Are you sure the 5th gear isn't already gone? :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby 4x4BEES » Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:59 am

I wanted to say that as well, but didn't want to be so cruel :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Reinart21 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:04 am

And cruel it was ;)

ON a more serious note, I also have the 4-speed auto box, Toyota at least implemented some mechanisms to help prolong the life of the gearbox. I don't have knowledge on other makes and models auto boxes, but your 4th gear will always be on direct drive over 80 km/h as well as 3rd gear if the lever is flicked over to 3 from Drive, also above 80km/h.

As I understand it, the torque converter will lock up and there will be no slipping present, reducing the strain on the converter as well as keeping the oil temps from overheating. Much the same as in Low range. Under correction here...

Sorry for going a bit off-topic.

My previous D4d was a manual and at 180k Toyota replaced the clutch, was getting hard to depress "they said" and with me being naive and not being aware of this gem called hilux4x4 I just accepted and gave the go ahead, was around 8k if memory server me right.
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Stuart Baak » Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:46 pm

Juis maar julle is nasty ne! :twisted: :lol: thanks Reinart! Appreciate it!
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby 4x4BEES » Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:11 pm

All in good spirit :lmao: :lmao:
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Stuart Baak » Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:09 pm

Hahahaha my turn will come to be naaaice... Hehe
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Mars » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:06 am

There are actually very few instances of hilux automatic gearboxes giving trouble compared to how many of the vehicles there are. The issue with the Interweb is that you are more likely to read about the ones where the guys are having trouble as they are the ones asking for help or complaining. The thousands of others don't have any reason to complain so you hear nothing about it. If you take care of your vehicle it will take care of you. Make sure you replace the oil on the indicated schedule and use good quality oil of the correct grading and you should never have a problem.

Bees you can realx. Hilux owners can take it! (and they can dish it out too! :wink2: )
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Philly » Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:44 am

Hello .just quick question. Is there (if any) a difference between the Hilux clutch and the Fortuner. Reason for asking, wife Fortuners clutch will need to be redone this year some time. and will the Heavy Duty clutch that Ferrit referred to fit in the Fortuner as well? Thanks folks!
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Yubbz » Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:55 am

When speaking to the local stealers, they guy mentioned that they have some in stock as the hilux's get done often (I have a tuna and was asking about my clutch). That said, this is an assumption....

As far as I know they're the same. :)
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Philly » Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:21 pm

What's the feeling around Clutch Masters clutch kits? Anybody used them before and if so happy or not?
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Mars » Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:29 pm

According to Goldwagen they sell the same kit for both the Hilux and Fortuner. They have the Sachs on a special for R3050 at the moment. I do not know the Clutch Masters kits.
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Boertjie » Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:19 am

Hi

Ek wil ook my Clutch vervang. Ek het Toyota lui gegee en die het my 'n R9600 kwitasie gegee. Het iemand dalk plek waar ek myne kan laat vervang vir beter prys ek is in Centurion . Ek wil vervang met daai SACHS Clutch. So saam met die 120 000 diens kos dit my R15000. Ek het Steves gebel en hulle charge R11500 vir diens en Clutch Hulle verskaf dan ook die parte.
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Mars » Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:07 am

Het jy 'n 4X4 of 4X2?
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Boertjie » Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:17 am

Ek het 4x4 .
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Mars » Tue Oct 13, 2015 1:09 pm

Ja die 4x4 is meer werk en daardie ratkas is baie swaarder as die 4x2
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Alex2539 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:52 pm

Hi there
I have been following the conversations above and noting good advice by fellow members. I need some advice on whether to replace my hilux clutch with the "Toyota" or the "CBS" one?
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Mars » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:41 am

Hi
To my knowledge the Toyota clutches are sourced locally from LUK. Where do CBS source their clutches from. I do not trust the LUK clutches anymore. The Sachs works well for me and I am sure you will be able to find one in Windhoek? You can go and ask them or look on the clutch and/or pressure plate for the LUK stamp. It even appears on the OEM Toyota clutch. I see there is a Goldwagen in Windhoek.
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Alex2539 » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:13 pm

Mars wrote:Hi
To my knowledge the Toyota clutches are sourced locally from LUK. Where do CBS source their clutches from. I do not trust the LUK clutches anymore. The Sachs works well for me and I am sure you will be able to find one in Windhoek? You can go and ask them or look on the clutch and/or pressure plate for the LUK stamp. It even appears on the OEM Toyota clutch. I see there is a Goldwagen in Windhoek.


Thank you very much Mars. I got the clutch kit was replaced, the car runs smooth however there is now a knocking sound from the gearbox when the car is in neutral and disappear once the clutch pedal is depressed. Anyone had a similar problem?
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Mars » Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:20 pm

Which kit did you get? Did you ask the guys who installed the clutch for you? Is it a loud knock or more of a ticking sound? When the clutch is released and it is idling in neutral the whole clutch assembly is rotating with the flywheel and the thrust bearing is not (supposd to be) making contact with the pressure plate. When you depress the clutch it means that the thrust bearing exercises a force on the pressure plate and that is when the knocking sound goes away in your bakkie. Do you also hear the knocking sound when you are in gear and driving with the clutch released?

It could be that the thrust bearing is slightly touching the fingers of the pressure plate but that would not typically cause a knocking sound. It could also be that the pressure on the pressure plate fingers stops whatever movement that is causing the knocking.Do you know if they replaced the spigot bearing when the clutch was done?
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Alex2539 » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:40 pm

Mars wrote:Which kit did you get? Did you ask the guys who installed the clutch for you? Is it a loud knock or more of a ticking sound? When the clutch is released and it is idling in neutral the whole clutch assembly is rotating with the flywheel and the thrust bearing is not (supposd to be) making contact with the pressure plate. When you depress the clutch it means that the thrust bearing exercises a force on the pressure plate and that is when the knocking sound goes away in your bakkie. Do you also hear the knocking sound when you are in gear and driving with the clutch released?

It could be that the thrust bearing is slightly touching the fingers of the pressure plate but that would not typically cause a knocking sound. It could also be that the pressure on the pressure plate fingers stops whatever movement that is causing the knocking.Do you know if they replaced the spigot bearing when the clutch was done?


Thanks again.
They put a LUK clutch kit, it was a whole clutch kit, not sure whether it includes spigot bearing?. It makes a knock sound (can be compared to when you move the gear level sideways in neutral (motor -off)). He opened the gearbox and found out that the reverse gear was worn out(supecting it as a cause of the noise0, he replaced it with a new one from Toyota but the noise is still there.

I took the bakkie to a Toyota dealer and they told me they had a similar case but they couldn't get rid of the noise even after replacing all the bearings. They said i should just get used to the noise, there are apparently many hiluxes running around(reached high mielages with troubles) with such a noise and people assume its normal..some said it a Toyota thing. The noise definitely comes from the gearbox.
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Baby Cruiser » Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:47 pm

Hi Alex , try running engine in nutral and just lightly toutch your clutch pedal . If you can feel the sound , it can be your release bearing. If you donot feel it and it go's away when you push the clutch in all the way , and the sound stop if the input shaft is not running , it can be the needle bearing on the input shaft.
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Alex2539 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:07 am

Baby Cruiser wrote:Hi Alex , try running engine in nutral and just lightly toutch your clutch pedal . If you can feel the sound , it can be your release bearing. If you donot feel it and it go's away when you push the clutch in all the way , and the sound stop if the input shaft is not running , it can be the needle bearing on the input shaft.


Thanks for the advice. The sound only goes away when the clutch is pushed in completely and can be only heard when the engine has run for at least 20 minutes or more
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Alex2539 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:16 pm

Alex2539 wrote:
Mars wrote:Which kit did you get? Did you ask the guys who installed the clutch for you? Is it a loud knock or more of a ticking sound? When the clutch is released and it is idling in neutral the whole clutch assembly is rotating with the flywheel and the thrust bearing is not (supposd to be) making contact with the pressure plate. When you depress the clutch it means that the thrust bearing exercises a force on the pressure plate and that is when the knocking sound goes away in your bakkie. Do you also hear the knocking sound when you are in gear and driving with the clutch released?

It could be that the thrust bearing is slightly touching the fingers of the pressure plate but that would not typically cause a knocking sound. It could also be that the pressure on the pressure plate fingers stops whatever movement that is causing the knocking.Do you know if they replaced the spigot bearing when the clutch was done?


Thanks again.
They put a LUK clutch kit, it was a whole clutch kit, not sure whether it includes spigot bearing?. It makes a knock sound (can be compared to when you move the gear level sideways in neutral (motor -off)). He opened the gearbox and found out that the reverse gear was worn out(supecting it as a cause of the noise0, he replaced it with a new one from Toyota but the noise is still there.

I took the bakkie to a Toyota dealer and they told me they had a similar case but they couldn't get rid of the noise even after replacing all the bearings. They said i should just get used to the noise, there are apparently many hiluxes running around(reached high mielages with troubles) with such a noise and people assume its normal..some said it a Toyota thing. The noise definitely comes from the gearbox.


No knocking sound when you are in gear and driving with the clutch released
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Baby Cruiser » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:45 pm

When in gear , 4th , the needle bearing is stationary , both shafts same speed , and in other gears the speed differance are minimal. The highest differance wil be in reverse and 1st.
I have just done my sfa's gearbox ,but you must consult a specialist. Only been a John Deere machanic for 11 years.
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Alex2539 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:01 pm

Baby Cruiser wrote:When in gear , 4th , the needle bearing is stationary , both shafts same speed , and in other gears the speed differance are minimal. The highest differance wil be in reverse and 1st.
I have just done my sfa's gearbox ,but you must consult a specialist. Only been a John Deere machanic for 11 years.


Thanks, i will do so
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Philly » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:20 pm

Hey all. As in my previous post. My wife's Fortuner clutch was busy going and was looking around to replace. So last week Monday we all jump in our vehicles for work. She leaves 1st and I see some specs of oil or something on paving, thinking to myself I have to check what it is this afternoon. Get in car, start driving to work and get a call "my clutch just failed when I press the pedal in in traffic!! Almost drove onto somebody!!But when I pump the clutch pedal it gets better"
So now panic stations kick in!! Hope she doesn't make an accident, should I get her to stop next to road and let me rather the car, but she says she is fine and will manage... We are leaving for Khutse end April, going to have to get this fixed/replaced sooner than I anticipated. Do plenty of research getting prices. But eventually decide to hold off until I can get under the car and check what exactly the problem is.
So in the afternoon same call, clutch is not working it just fades and almost drive into vehicles again, had to switch car of to get it to stopped.. So on the phone with her all the way till she gets home, luckily only happened the once. But once is enough for a major accident which we don't want. Jump underneath the car and bingo!! The Slave cylinder is leaking fluid!! That explains everything. So decision was made to replace both master and slave cylinder 1st, then if things do not feel better or still fails everything will have to be replaced. I drive her car the next few days as I don't sit in traffic and she takes my bakkie which is auto.(Did I struggle to get back my bakkie after all is done and fixed)
Get prices everywhere, Must say Gemini is not that much cheaper anymore as what they used to be. I ended up ordering everything from Toyota, their prices on slave cylinder is cheaper than Midas and ended up even cheaper than Gemini (after I complained that I can't wait and they will have to make it worth my while not to go somewhere else) so they did and prices was not bad end of day.
So the next day I receive everything from Toyota with an extra bottle brake fluid and off I go to replace the cylinders.
Starting slowly to make sure how everything comes apart. Must say replacing everything was the easy part.... bleeding the system on the other hand.. Complete different ball game on its own.. We ended up with a syringe pulling the fluid through, and pumping clutch to make sure all air bubbles are out which worked out to be best decision. If we didn't do that I think we would still be pumping the clutch pedal...
Inspecting the Master Cylinder still looks pretty much brand new. So this is free to anybody that would think that they can do anything with it. But please check 1st and make sure it is 100%, I only took it out and by looking at it, still looked very good with no leaks at all.. New price is round about R1470..

Clutch is sorted!! Even the shudder that it had in hectic traffic is gone!! Very glad about that, that means I don't have to replace the whole cutch yet!!
Total Cost of job was parts at Toyota of about R2300.00
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Alex2539 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:00 pm

FERRIT wrote:Hilux's have a weak clutch,I own a 2006 30lt D4D dual cab,I've owned alot of hilux's and love them,the only real problem with them is there clutch.My hilux used to make a spigot bearing noise almost from brand new,All the hilux's I know even at work it dosn't take much to smell it burning.The only way I get over it is to install a heavy duty clutch.In my 2006 I've installed a HEAVY DUTY EXEDY DAIKIN CLUTCH part # TYK-8006SMFHD. You can go twice higher extreme heavy duty or racing depends on how much you want to pay.You can buy all this on ebay,you should have a look it wont hurt.It might be an issue with your warranty,but see toyota. if you got the clutch they fit it, or they may have one at three times the price that you should pay.I hope this helps you,good luck.


Hi Ferrit . How is your heavy duty cluth ? I am really looking for a good clutch kit coz it looks like mine has already started slipping after just 30000km. I have a LUK in
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Rollercoaster639 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:32 am

Rollercoaster639 wrote:
Mars wrote:Hi Barry. In my research on the internet I have seen some instances of guys moaning about a smelly clutch and also under hard conditions such as pulling an off-road trailer through thick sand. I also saw your other post and must say that I can only really speculate to some extent.

The only time that a clutch plate will stink is when it heats up due to clutch slipping. This could be because the clutch plate is worn and the pressure plate does not grip the clutch plate tightly enough, slipping the clutch too much on purpose due to pulling away on an incline with a heavy freight/trailer or in heavy conditions such as sand (i.e. riding the clutch) or if there is something wrong with the pressure plate causing it not to grip the clutch plate tight enough. Some people also tend to ride the clutch to hold the vehicle stationary on an incline whilst waiting for the robot to change. Another possible reason could be that the clutch actuation mechanism is so tight that it does not allow the pressure plate to release fully (such as a very sticky clutch cable) or an improperly adjusted clutch.

Given your situation I'm going to assume that you are already sensitive about the clutch and would not hammer or slip it unduly. I also think it is safe to assume that the clutch plate is not worn enough to start slipping. When the hydraulic system fails the clutch will always go to its fully released state so it is not that either. I am also hoping that the clutch would have been adjusted correctly by Toyota. This leaves us with only the pressure plate.

According to what my research and personal experience has shown the LUK pressure plates fitted OEM to the (I am assuming) South African Hiluxes is suspect.

My first question would be if Toyota replaced the clutch plate and pressure plate both times or only the clutch plate? If they did not replace the pressure plate then I would be fairly certain that it is in fact the pressure plate. If they did then they would have used LUK clutches, the pressure plate of which is already suspect to my mind. Considering that clutches are normally considered wear and tear items, the fact that Toyota so readily replaced the clutch twice, would seem to support my suspicion that there is something amiss with the clutches.

As far as replacement kits are concerned I am aware of four brands you can get. (There may be more) LUK, Sachs (ZF), Aisin (which seems to be made by Sachs anyway or vice versa) and PHC Valeo. When I enquired at Goldwagen they only listed one clutch kit for my Double Cab 4x4. This is the exact same clutch we got for my brothers 4x2 D4D Double Cab. They did not differentiate between a heavy duty and a normal duty clutch. Perhaps you can phone around and enquire from some brake and clutch specialists about that? I did see someone mention a Sachs heavy duty clutch.

If I were in your shoes I would do the following, First check and make sure that the clutch releases completely. The master cylinder rod is adjustable. Check if the rod completely retracts. If you check and listen very carefully you can feel if there is a small amount of travel before the rod comes into contact with the piston. If there isn't, release the lock nut on the rod and adjust the rod's length by screwing it into the pedal bracket until you can feel that free play when the clutch lever is in its top-most position. You can then back out the rod again until it lightly contacts the piston. If that is fine one would need to take out the gearbox to see what is going on. I would definitely have the fly wheel skimmed and replace the clutch with one of the other brands. Make sure that you get the flywheel skimmed and replace the clutch plate, pressure plate and thrust bearing (the bits that come in the kit).

Hope this will be of some assistance to you. I am sure some other forum members will chime in here soon enough.


Hi Marrs. Thanks for the reply. The clutch still does stink now and again as mentioned but I am 100% sure I don't ride the clutch. What I will do now is to ride the bakkie as it is and when the time comes to change the clutch I will change all the components and have the flywheel skimmed as per your answer.

One thing I have been thinking about lately which might also have an effect on the clutch stinking is the so called "Turbo Lag". This lag might be "teaching you to slip the clutch" without you even knowing. This would be more apparent when in soft sand or also when you have a heavier trailer hooked up and you are trying to pull away quicker. Before the turbo kicks in there is really a noticeable lack of power and one really battles to get the revs up to where the turbo kicks in. I have sent the bakkie in to have them look at this and remap it if necessary. I have not had a chance to test it yet but my wife who has tested it said there is now a significant change for the positive. Once I have driven it I will be able to tell if there is an improvement. This will only be in three weeks time at which I head to Moz for a two week break.


FEEDBACK:

I left the clutch as it was and as I mentioned already as soon as It had to work a bit it would stink. It lasted less than 100000 km. It is now slipping so Now it has to be changed. If you have the name and part numbers or contact number of someone who can replace the clutch plate, pressure plate, release bearing and skim the fly wheel please let me know. I really need a heavy duty clutch. Thanks
Mars
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Mars » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:45 am

Sorry to hear that. I have heard mention of a heavy duty clutch on the forum but do not actually know what the difference is. A quick search on the forum will get the post quickly for you. I installed the Sachs clutch kit that I bought from Goldwagen and it does not state that it is a heavy duty clutch but I can confirm that it is working great. As I stated in the post it comes in a Sachs box but the parts are actually marked Aisin. OEM Toyota supplier in Japan. Hope you come right.
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Rollercoaster639
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Vehicle: Hilux 3.0 D4D, Full OME suspension, Front ARB air lockers, 265/75/16 BFG,ARB replacement Front bumper, Alu canopy, DC2DC duel battery charger system, Long range tank. Solar Panels, Ostrich awning, Drawer system, Airbags, Outback back bumper, roof top tent
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Re: 3.0 D4D Clutch Problem

Postby Rollercoaster639 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:55 am

Thanks Mars

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