No water in radiator what could cause this?

[bryanhart]

Hi guys. I have a 2002 2.7i 4x4.she has 240000km.Today I noticed my temp gauge climbed above half way not normal....I checked radiator and it was empty but the plastic sump was full? I can't see any leaks ? Are there any checks I can do? I did notice water coming out of exhaust this evening when I started her? Checked oil no white bubbles? Any tips on what to check? I added water and it seems to be holding so the water mustbe a slow leak?

[Dadz Toy]

At 240k you are in head gasket territory.
I have to God it's not but don't be surprised if it is your HG.


Rich

[bryanhart]

Eshh. In term of replacing a head gasket ... If the engine is running fine surely it is no big job just to change the gasket ? I had the head gasket test done 2 months ago at Toyota and it was a negative ...

[bryanhart]

is it possible to have a new head gasket changed even if it turns out nothing is wrong with the existing gasket?

[Mud Dog]

You can do another carbon monoxide test on the radiator, a radiator pressure test and even a compression test. These can come back as negative and you could still have an intermittent overheating problem.

Was it a hot day when this happened? Were you towing with the vehicle or making it work harder than usual?

It could be that the HG has failed but then you would have a problem all the time and perhaps even notice air bubbles rising in the radiator from cold start with the radiator cap off. It could also be that the thermostat is playing up, or that the water pump is not as effective as it should be, or that the visco cooling fan is not providing enough airflow. It could also be that the radiator is clogged internally or even that the radiator fins are choked and restricting airflow. The radiator itself could be tired and no longer able to cool sufficiently, or a simple item such as a faulty radiator cap could be responsible.

A failed head gasket will force gasses from a cylinder into the water jacket even though the motor continues to appear to run normally. Any gasses in the cooling system will displace the coolant and overheating will occur. Such gasses are not only possible from a failed HG but can also occur if the system cannot hold enough pressure to prevent boiling of the coolant (coolant temps typically rise significantly above normal boiling point) - or there isn't effective enough cooling taking place to prevent boiling even if the HG is good and there are no leaks in the system.

If you aren't technically minded I would take it to a reputable radiator repair shop like Silverton.

Hope you come right.

[ChrisF]

As to your initial question - why is the make up tank full and yet low water in the radiator :

The make-up tank works on a vacuum principle - engine heats up, a bit of water is pushed into the make-up tank. The radiator cap limits the amount of water by regulating the system pressure.

When the engine cools down the water contracts and cause a low pressure zone, sucking some water from the make-up tank.

In an ideal world water level in the make-up tank will go and down with the engine temp (see the hot and cold marks on the tank).


A faulty radiator cap can mess with this cycle ... first and cheapest item to replace.

I have seen instances where the little hose to the makeup tank got blocked by rust, and all was right after cleaning out, replacing, the hose.

A blown head gasket would cause MORE water to be pushed out of the engine to the make up tank, thus a water bottle that has water above the high mark may be the first sign of a blown HG ...


so there are a few options ,,, but a HG is the most common of these. Just check the others before going for the most expensive item first

[Dowe Koos]

Hi Bryan. If I were you, I would flush the radiator first. Buy something from Midas to flush your engine, it is the cheapest way to start do fault finding. If the problem persist then I will go for the thermostat. If the car lack power since the problem start, then go for head gasket replacement.

[ChrisF]

Hi Bryan. If I were you, I would flush the radiator first. Buy something from Midas to flush your engine, it is the cheapest way to start do fault finding. If the problem persist then I will go for the thermostat. If the car lack power since the problem start, then go for head gasket replacement.

If I may add, when you drain the radiator after flushing it - see if or how much rust comes out of the system ...


if it is bad - then chances are you only got some out, and some more are about to come loose - and cause havoc in the radiator .....

Insert more flushing chemicals, and go through this process until you are sure the inside if the engine is properly clean.

As soon as you know if the HG is okay, add some antifreeze - this is crucial to stop more rust from forming !!

[pietpetoors]

Water coming from the exhaust is normal, you should see that each time you start your vehicle when the engine is cold. It is not to say that it indicates a problem.

Fill the radiator and see if it gets empty again. Because we now have expansion tanks we all tend to only look at the expansion tank and nether at the radiator. Is always good to once in a while also check the water level in the radiator not only the expansion tank.

[lukestoyzx]

Unless you have no cat! Then ya wont see water out your exhaust.

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

[ChrisF]

Hydrogen is a base component in all fuels.

H2O is a standard byproduct of combustion.

Thus there is ALWAYS water coming out the exhaust pipe. But at operating temperature the water leaves as steam.

For the first few minutes the exhaust is cold enough that some of this water condenses in the exhaust pipe and is seen as droplets in the exhaust gas.

This is perfectly normal

[The Legend]

Hydrogen is a base component in all fuels.

H2O is a standard byproduct of combustion.

Thus there is ALWAYS water coming out the exhaust pipe. But at operating temperature the water leaves as steam.

For the first few minutes the exhaust is cold enough that some of this water condenses in the exhaust pipe and is seen as droplets in the exhaust gas.

This is perfectly normal

The reason why mild exhauxes rust so easily when drive short distance only.The water stays in the exhaust.

[Mars]

I would check the following before concluding that the head gasket has blown. Replace the thermostat, replace the radiator cap, check that the overflow hose to the surge tank is not blocked. Flush the radiator and then check if it is still losing water. If you always made sure that the concentration of anti-freeze is correct then it is unlikely that there could be corrosion to the water pump impeller but if not I would also check the water pump first. I have seen instances where the water pump impeller vanes were corroding away due to no anti-freeze that obviously results in the pump losing efficiency and the engine running hotter. The 2.7 engine is not prone to cracking cylinder heads like the KZTE and if the engine did not overheat and there is no corrosion issues there is no reason for the head gasket to go, regardless of the kilometres.

[pietpetoors]

[JohanW]

Also check the heat exchanger in the cab. Its a absolute female dog to replace. My heat exchanger on the KZ burst and emptied my radiator. Easy way is just to bypass it and connect the inlet and outlet pipes going through the firewall.

[pietpetoors]

Easy way to check that is after you drove somewhere, feel if the passenger carpet is wet, under the carpet. You will also get an antifreeze smell in the cab. Mine also started to leek and I just blocked it off 3 years ago.

[bryanhart]

Hey guys thank you for all the advice! The cap was old and was faulty. The pipe to the sump was blocked with rust. The guys at Silverton said there was rust in the system..so I am gonna just get a new radiator and thermostat. Quite interesting is that the guys are saying I should not use the Toyota coolant fluid?

[ChrisF]

The Toyota coolant is the Caltex product.

Just in a different bottle.


More important to make sure you use the correct type for your engine. One type for the older cast iron heads, different product for the newer aluminium heads

[Cinco]

These days it is almost a pointless exercise to flush a radiator as the tubes in the radiator core are are so thin (very small internal volume) that they block up extrEmely easily. No flushing will get the particles out and replacement is the best option.

[ChrisF]

These days it is almost a pointless exercise to flush a radiator as the tubes in the radiator core are are so thin (very small internal volume) that they block up extrEmely easily. No flushing will get the particles out and replacement is the best option.

correct, but also only half the story ...

YES, these new radiators do get blocked easily.

BUT, the flush is as much to clean the engine block of rust deposits as to clean the radiator. Which further increase the rate at which the radiator blocks up ....


BUT, you really SHOULD use a good flush IF there are clear signs of "rust". Both to clean the radiator AND the engine. KNOWING that the released particles WILL block the radiator. Remove the hose at the top and bottom from the radiator. Wash it with your hose pipe, first from the one side, then the other, again and again and again ... This does wash out most of the loose particles.

Then another engine flush, again wash out the radiator - IF you still get significant rust, well a third cycle is on the cards ....


We bought a car with 100 000km on the clock - and clear signs of rust in the radiator. Took 5 cycles to get the system properly clean. more than 4 years later and no further issues - we DID add a correct dose of anitfreeze after the last flush cycle.


Sadly cleaning a system with rust is a slow process .... do note that the radiator does NOT rust, the rust you see comes from the engine block. So when you do see rust in the radiator you really need to clean the engine before thinking of adding anti-freeze.

[Mars]

Great advice from Chris. It is a schlep but you don't want your new radiator to clog again. People often neglect to check and make sure that there is sufficient anti-freeze in the engine. As I have stated before it also serves as a rust inhibitor.

Did they tell you why you shouldn't use the Toyota Anti-freeze? Personally I think it is over priced but other than that seems to do it's job.

[bryanhart]

Ok once again thanks for the tips. All noted. Car is going in next week!

[ChrisF]

Great advice from Chris. It is a schlep but you don't want your new radiator to clog again. People often neglect to check and make sure that there is sufficient anti-freeze in the engine. As I have stated before it also serves as a rust inhibitor.

Did they tell you why you shouldn't use the Toyota Anti-freeze? Personally I think it is over priced but other than that seems to do it's job.

1988 my mom's car had a major engine overall. As part of the process the block was properly cleaned.

The mechanic did not add any anti-freeze ....

6 months later I serviced the car .. imagine my shock and horror when I saw a LOT of rust in the radiator water.


Flushed the system twice, and added anti-freeze. My mom had that car for a good few years after that, never had any issues with the radiator water again.

Somehow people hear "anti-freeze" and think they live at the coast and wont ever need something against "freezing" .... fact is that anti-freeze is as much about anti-corrosion as about the temperature.

[dalkill]

Just a bit offtopic... but how do you dispose of the antifreeze?

Would not want this situation but chucking it down the toilet...

[Cobra]

Soek raad asb.
My 2.7i 2001 bakkie doen die volgende.
Water stoot uit by die radiator overflow na die plastiek container ( stoom ). Dus verloor ek water.
My bakkkie word NIE warm nie. Het nog nooit ge "overheat" nie. Ek top die water op kort kort.
Het die termostaat vervang maar nog dieselfde.....
Kan dit 'n foutiewe water pomp wees? Hoe weet ek dit?
Ek kry nie ander water lekke op my engine nie.
Geen water in die olie nie.
Help asb!

[MCHILUX]

Try a new radiator cap

[Cobra]

Try a new radiator cap

Why would you recommend that?
Just trying to understand the logic behind it. I am not an expert.

[MCHILUX]

On the cap there must be a non return valve they tend to break off or doesnt seal properly this will cause water to be pushed into the resivoir

[MCHILUX]

As daar lug in die sisteem is gaan die temp. meter normaal wys

[Cobra]

As daar lug in die sisteem is gaan die temp. meter normaal wys

Dankie. Ek sal 'n nuwe cap gaan koop.
Sal feedback gee....

[Cobra]

As daar lug in die sisteem is gaan die temp. meter normaal wys

R40 vir die cap betaal.
Probleem opgelos!
Baie dankie vir die raad. Ek waardeer.

Gerhard

[MCHILUX]

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