Rough idling, smoking badly

[Kaaskrul]

I had some injector clatter on my bakkie. It was running fine. No miss, nothing.
89 000km on the clock.
3.0 D4D
2013.

So after asking around, I was told to send it in to the Diesel shop in town. Toyota also recommended them.
I dont have Warranty anymore.

I removed the Injectors myself.
They were tested, the guy told me they were over fueling badly at low rpms. So he shimmed them, and handed them back 2 days later. He confirmed they are in 100% working order, and well inside the specs now.

Assembled everything,

On startup, it SMOKED badly!! As in badly. WHITE smoke. It also sounds as if it is running on only 3 cylinders. Very rough idle, so bad the whole engine was shaking from side to side.

When you rev it up past 2500rpm, it sounds normal, white smoke is gone. Roughness also gone. Sounds like a brandnew D4D. But leave it to go back to idling, holy moly, not good. I did loosen up by the one injector to see if there was air in the pipe. It splutters a bit to get to 2500rpm, but once there, its 100%

So I took them out, again. Back to the diesel shop and told the guy its not right. He wasn't too happy about it, but ran them again on his Fancy computer system, and confirmed they are ok.

He handed them back, and gave me this big speech story how to bleed the system. I only took the diesel pipes off the injectors, I did not remove all the piping.

Installed them again. Followed his bleeding step by step.Same story.

I did put the same injector back into the same chamber. It was marked, not to get confused.
We confirmed via computer that the ECU reads them. And nr 1 Injector is indeed in nr1 chamber etc etc.

So tonight I drove it. Above 2500rpm it pulls like a train. No problems. 100%.
But still idling on what sounds like 3 cylinders.

Any ideas?

[lukestoyzx]

Take the thing somewhere else! Get the feeback values checked. Also get the check all the other specs and pressures as it may not have been an injector at all! A bad Scv will show the same symptoms.

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[Rigger]

[quote="lukestoyzx"]Take the thing somewhere else! Get the feeback values checked. Also get the check all the other specs and pressures as it may not have been an injector at all! A bad Scv will show the same symptoms.

By saying it is the SCV (suction control valve) do you think it isn't restricting the fuel at low revs and therefor overfuel with the white smoke symptom?

[lukestoyzx]

Very possible, it's a wearing component just like the injectors.

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[Kaaskrul]

I did not have any problems with the bakkie.

It idled smoothly, no smoke at all.

So can this valve decide to pack up same time I do injectors?

That must be very bad timing

I still get the feeling I'm missing something small.


OR, the dude who did my Injectors stuffed up? He wont check them again, and I dont want to fork out money again to take it someone else unnecessary. They charge R550 each just to do the test.

The Toyota laptop says the flow and everything on the Injectors are all good.

[Rigger]

Kan dit nie 'n vacuum pyp wees op die EGR valve wat af is nie?

[Kaaskrul]

Sal more weer loop kyk.

Maar als is op en reg eintlik. Maar sal weer check.

Waar is Hoppy?

Die man moet kom help man.

[Kaaskrul]

Ok it seems Im on the right path now. I learned a few things today that I was not aware of.

The Machine being used, to test the D4D injector, must be able to read/communicate with the Injector.
It must be able to read the Injector just like the ECU would, not 50% of it.

I went to a Diesel shop today, Injectors in hand.

The guy explained, that they use a Denso Machine. With Denso software. Also connected to this machine, is a ECU from a Hilux, same as we have in our bakkies.

So when they connect the Injector to this machine, its the same scenario as if its inside a Hilux engine, connected to ECU. Realtime testing,
The ECU needs to communicate with Injector, while being tested, in order for the programming to determine whether its faulty or not.

The guy I took them to, his machine cant talk to the software inside the Injector. So his machine gives him a MIN and MAX level. He shims it to be anywhere between these two, and then his machine tells him its fine. Which is not. He basically just pulsed diesel through it, and his aftermarket software gave the 100% all ok reading, when in fact, it was now WORSE than it was when I took it in He thumbsucked what my ECU will say to my Injectors.

When I hooked up my bakkie today at Toyota. Two injectors showed -5, and two showed +5.
They were suppose to be around 1.

This is now for the 2012 and newer D4D 3.0. Previous models have different Injectors in, that is not so sensitive.

When I confronted Shim guy Nr1, he turned his story and confirmed the guy is talking the truth, and that he DID tell me so in the beginning, and I knew I had a 50/50 chance that it will work or not.WTH?

So if you have a 2012 and newer model. Be sure to hook them up on a Denso Test machine. So far its the only way to do these.

Your ECU can change the parameters on each injector by itself, up or down, but only a little bit. BUT, if the basic setting is wrong, that little the ECU can make changes, is not enough to let them work 100%. And this was my problem. The shimming he did, was so far out, that I was running on 3 cylinders and the ECU could not correct it.

Schoolfees

[Mud Dog]

Eish! Not a satisfactory experience. But good to know for the guys with similar models.

[ChrisF]

Pierre thanks for sharing. I am SURE many of the guys here will need this advise sooner rather than later ...

[MCHILUX]

Did you remove the injector seat washers and replaced them

[lukestoyzx]

Christ that's a long way out of spec! Hopefully you haven't damaged a piston!

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[Kaaskrul]

Did you remove the injector seat washers and replaced them

Yes we did.

The new ones are Aluminium type washers, they aint copper anymore.

[Kaaskrul]

Ok so the guy called me this afternoon.

It seems like he will be able to rectify the booboo with his proper shimming. Im holding thumbs. Internals so far on the Injectors still look fine.

He said 2 Injectors on idling did not even supply fuel

[Kaaskrul]

Faulty shims damaged my Injectors.

I must buy 4 new ones from Toyota now

[Kaaskrul]

Some info for the rest of you guys. its too late for me now.

Toyota says the can "re learn" or "re calibrate" the Injectors with their laptop.

They basically erase the map on each Injector, and it re learns from fresh. So Injectors that aint running 100% can be corrected at Toyota. Worth a shot before fixing or replacing them.

[lukestoyzx]

Get onto Bailey's diesel here in Australia b4 you shell out for new Toyota ones! Miles cheaper, bettee warranty and serviceable.

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[Kaaskrul]

Already ordered 4 new ones from Toyota.

[Mars]

Whomever is going to install the injectors for you must make sure that they clean the injector seats in the cylinder head where the new seals are going to fit.

[lukestoyzx]

×2 on what mars said, extremely important! Clean the seats, replace the seals with the updated version. The is also an updated version of the injector retaining forks and they r known for breaking! Injector lines should also be replaced. A rag and a lenght of 16mm dowel is ideal for cleaning the seats, toyota guys here have the genuine toyota tool but prefer to use the dowel!

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[Mars]

I did not replace those retainer forks. I just made sure that they are torqued to spec and it is not such a high value to begin with. Just place some oil on the conical part of the bolts to ensure that you get the right torque value. The underside of the bolt head is conical and locates into a recess in the retainer fork.

If you do not damage the injector lines or nuts then I would re-use them. I did in mine. Just make absolutely sure that there is not even a spec of dust in there when you re-install them. I rinsed mine out with spirits and then blew dry with compressed air. Those lines are on the high pressure side and any leaks will be immediately visible if there is an issue.

Definitely replace he injector leakage return line seals.