22R rebuild - what do you think of this job?

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zoeper
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Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:05 pm

Hi Guys,
The 22R engine in my '97 SFA blew a top gasket beginning of December.
I was on my way home late one night when the oil light came on. Knowing there was oil and watching the temp gauge, I slowly did the last 5 km to Paarl so I could assess the situation.
As I turned into the main road I could feel that power was low.
A friend towed me home and I pulled the engine to have it fixed by a "reputable" engine re-builder.

The Rebuilder told me the cause of the blown gasket was a bent valve and advised that the engine be rebuilt.
I paid them 17K upfront as I was not available the week the engine would be completed and I made arrangements to collect the engine after they closed for the holidays,

Collecting the engine, It appeared that the tappet cover was not cleaned. There was still oil/water on the oil cap threads. removing the tappet cover also revealed a lot of caked on sludge remaining on the camshaft, rockers and rocker shafts. It would also appear that the valves were not replaced, as the box with parts contained no valves. (I could be wrong on this last point)

Please look at the pictures and let me know if this is acceptable. Also, how would you proceed to ensure that the job was done properly throughout?

Thank you
Pieter
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zoeper
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Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:13 pm

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I would like to add that this engine had a history of sludge when I got it and it is important for me to ensure that all oil channels are free of build up and sludge. Sludge problem was discussed on this forum +- 1 year ago.

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Stef
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Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:32 am

does nor look acceptable to me....looks like old pistons and the parts do not seem to have been cleaned prior to reassembling

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Knuppel
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Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:08 am

You have been taken for a ride! How can the rest of the workmanship be any good if those parts look like that!
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zoeper
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Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:39 am

Thanks guys, that is what I thought as well. They stripped the engine again and is now busy cleaning everything. I will go and inspect before they start assembling again.
What else should I be looking/ measuring for to ensure job was done properly?
P

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Knuppel
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Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:49 am

Let them show you the old parts that came out to ensure they did fit new, but would you know if the parts they showed you were yours!.
Your best bet is to get a second opinion if you are not tech wize. Get a good engine rebuilder to go with you to check before they re-assemble!
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zoeper
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Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:41 pm

Got the engine back on Friday.
Spent last night and this morning putting her back. Come time to fire her up, she runs smooth, but there is water in the oil again. Also oil pissing out a bolt hole in the top where the EGR valve would be mounted if fitted. (EGR valve not normally fitted to SA engines and port left open) Water level in radiator is also dropping and seems to appear in sump even when engine is off.
Alan (Hoppy) was kind enough to check on a complete 22R engine and the EGR port on that engine is just left open.
Could i be missing something?
Did the rebuilders miss a breached water/ oil channel on the top, or just bad assembly job?

Hope someone can shed some light that would not involve pulling and returning the engine again, but then...

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Mud Dog
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Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:12 am

Doesn't sound good at all! :shock:

It could be something simple like they didn't torque the head down and the gasket is leaking water jacket to oil galleries, but then it could also be that they have managed to crack the head (if this was not already part of the original problem). Cracks in cylinder heads are not always immediately apparent and only show up under pressure testing or X-ray. A pressure test should have been done if they didn't immediately see the the tell tale signs of a blown gasket at the time of disassembly.

This is going to be a difficult one to persue because they will surely claim that the head must have been cracked all along. :(
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zoeper
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Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:54 pm

I suspect I know what is going on here....
Since the head was skimmed and new head gasket fitted we should be able to rule that out.
Since the timing chain guides came out broken and it is now pissing oil/ water from a bolt hole that should not have pressurized oil or water behind it, my theory is that the timing chain ate through the timing chain housing and into a tater channel. this will put pressurized water into the timing chain housing and into the tappet cover. Normal oil flow from the camshaft and rocker shaft lube system can drain down to the sump, but with the added pressure, it pushes out the bolt hole where it will not normally go.

Looking at the spark plugs that came out the engine after the "gasket blew", there is no sign of steam cleaning as you would expect to see if water got into the combustion chamber with the engine running.

I suspect that I will be able to confirm this by running the engine with the tappet cover removed and shining a flashlight down into the timing chain cover.

Does this sound plausible?

I will attempt to get the re-builders to come to me tomorrow to look at the engine and determine way forward.
Hopefully we can pin down the problem and get this mess fixed ASAP.

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Mud Dog
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Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:31 am

Sounds like it could be a possible reason but I'm not convinced - the timing chain is more likely to have chewed through a bolt housing inside the cover which would give you the oil leak at the bolt head. Maybe a piece of the broken tensioner did some other damage that involves water channels. Check it out. :think:

If the chain chewed through a bolt housing as I suspect, instead of removing the cover (awkward job) you could remove the bolt, tape up the last bit of bolt shank and bolt head with PTFE (plumber's tape) put the bolt back and nip it up to stem the oil leak for now (an interim fix) until you have a reason to remove the cover again and then do a proper repair. If I'm right, the leaking bolt will be on the slack side of the chain - i.e. the tensioner side.
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.

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Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
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pietpetoors
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Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:24 am

You can use a head gasket only once. If they stripped the engine and re used the head gasket it will leak. Sometimes it wont leak immidiately but eventually it will. My guess is that they re used the head gasket.
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zoeper
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Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:04 am

Mud Dog: The bolt hole that leaks oil is on the rear of the engine behind the inlet manifold.

Piet: Head gasket being re-used is a real possibility.

They are coming to collect the vehicle today and I will report back as soon as I have more info.
I am not real happy handing over my bakkie to them, but I am not feeling like pulling (and re-installing) the engine either! :shock2:

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LouisZ
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Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:32 am

The hole behind the manifold is it the intake manifold? if it is its simple fix. white tape and m8 bolt should sort it out, they forgot to put it in again.

You don't use a head gasket again. You fit a new one.

zoeper
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Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:01 pm

There is place for mounting an EGR unit on the head, firewall side of the intake manifold. On SA 22R's this unit was not fitted and the bolt holes where the flange would normally mount is just left bare.
The oil pouring from that hole is just a symptom and not the cause. water is getting into the oil somewhere, and this high pressure water is displacing oil out the holes where it would not normally go.
At this moment all fingers point to the timing chain housing.

The guys who did the work will pressurize the radiator today and see where the water is entering the oil system.
Thank all for your help and suggestions, feedback to follow.

P

zoeper
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Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:03 pm

Ps. Maybe someone with a good 22R can check on their engine to confirm that the EGR port and bolt holes were not somehow blanked off?
Thanks
Pieter

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Mud Dog
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Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:06 pm

Pity you can't post a pic, then we can see clearly what you're talking about.
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.

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Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!

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Knuppel
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Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:59 pm

What about the oil cooler? Is that not sealing properly?

Thats if it has an oil cooler, not sure!
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zoeper
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Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:33 pm

Like this?
Inlet manifold gasket allows for the EGR as well. This part should not be needed on RSA 22R's

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Mud Dog
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Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:25 am

I currently have an EFI manifold on my 22R, but will have a look as well as browse back over previous pics when it was still normally aspirated. :winkx:
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.

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Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!

zoeper
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Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:25 pm

I spoke to the re-builders this morning. They confirmed that the chain indeed chewed into a water channel in the timing chain housing. They could not find a replacement housing and sent the existing one for repair. (presumably to be welded)
Looking forward to having my bakkie back!!!!

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Mud Dog
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Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:11 am

That would be the first time I hear of such an occurrence, even though I gave it enough credence as a remote possibility in a post above. There are no water galleries in the cover piece, and the block is cast iron, so that leaves the head. Is that where it chewed through?

Also, what did they say about the oil leak on that bolt?
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.

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Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!

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Mr_B
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Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:04 am

The timing chain problem on the 2nd generation of 22R's is well documented. From Wikipedia:
Toyota swapped the dual-row timing chain used in older engines for a single-row chain with plastic guides in 1983. The new system reduced drag on the engine but introduced a new maintenance problem. After about 100,000 miles of operation, the chain may stretch to the point that the hydraulic-operated chain tensioner cannot take up any more slack. The timing chain then impacts the plastic driver's side chain guide, breaking it within a short period of time and creating a noticeable chattering sound in the front of the engine, especially when cold. If the engine continues to be operated without the guide restraint, the chain will vibrate excessively on the driver's side and stretch rapidly. The result is any of several failure modes.

First, the loose chain will reduce ignition timing accuracy, which usually results in noticeably rough running. Second, it may jump a tooth on the drive sprocket or break entirely, which almost always results in major damage to an interference engine. Third, the stretched chain can slap against the side of the timing cover and wear through the metal into the coolant passage behind the water pump, resulting in major damage to both the oil and cooling systems (sometimes mis-diagnosed as a head gasket failure). The damaged aluminum timing cover is difficult to repair effectively and is typically replaced after such an event. Aftermarket timing-chain kits for the 22R and 22RE typically include steel-backed guides that do not readily break even after the initial chain stretching has occurred, permitting the chain to run beyond the 100,000 mile point without further incident.


Eish... at least the engine does burst into flames like a Kuga! :twisted:

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Stef
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Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:06 am

Had the same issue with oil out that hole ....if memory serves the original intake manifold covers that hole up whereas the EFi intake doesn't. Just plugged it with a bolt; I guess one could install an oil temp sensor there...

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LouisZ
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Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:09 am

Spot on Stef.

The simple way is to take a M8 Bolt. Give it white plumbers tape and turn it in. Yes there was a blank off plate for the Egr but its not serious. That hole go direct into the head and oil move quite a lot there.

Water in the system can be from the chain chowing into the recess of the waterpump. Its possible.

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Knuppel
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Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:46 am

And so I learn, thanks!
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Mud Dog
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Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:50 am

Knuppel wrote:And so I learn, thanks!
Me too! :D:
That's what's so nice about forums, the collective knowledge. :thumbup:
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.

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Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!

zoeper
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Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:24 pm

Knuppel wrote:And so I learn, thanks!
Happy to know my pain is for your gain! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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