22R not starting

[pampoen]

Guys I recently bought a new distributor as no one seems to sell the vacuum advance unit separately which was buggered. Anyway two or three days ago I fitted the new dizzy and hooked up the vacuum advance and the car would not stop backfiring through the carby, I had NO power top end, if I tried to floor it I got nothing but carb backfire.

I adjusted the mixture all the way up and down and nothing, no improvement. So I removed the dizzy to recheck timing, ensuring sparkplug no 1 is tdc as well as ensuring that dizzy was on 1 sparkplug crank on 0tdc. I have connected sparkplug wires to their corresponding numbers, IE number 1 sparkplug to number one on the dizzy cap.

Now the engine will not start at all and every ten or twelve cranks it backfires one moooer of a gunshot scaring all the neighbors kids and my poor wife. Eish...Sometimes I wonder why I do this to myself.

[Mud Dog]

You may have mixed up the firing order when you took off the plug leads. It should be 1-3-4-2

Make sure all leads are secure and that there is a good connection both at the cap and the plugs as well as at the coil. )Never pull a lead off by the cable - always grab hold of the cup .... you could pull the wire free of the socket inside, so check that as well).

Try also advancing the ignition timing a little to about 3° BTDC - it should run at between 5 to 8° BTDC at idle (800rpm)

Check also that the rotor and / or rotor cap isn't damaged / cracked.

[pampoen]

Do you mean 1 on cap should go too 1 on plug, 2 on cap to 3 on plug, 3 on cap to 4 on plug and 4 on cap to 2 on plug?

Or does that mean 1 on cap to 1 on plug, 2 on cap to 2 on plug, 3 on cap to 3 on plug 4 on cap to 4 on plug?

[pampoen]

Sorry sounds like a stupid question, but I had it plug 1 on cap 1,plug 2 to cap 2, plug 3 to cap 3, plug 4 to cap 4 and it would not start.

[Mud Dog]

Do you mean 1 on cap should go too 1 on plug, 2 on cap to 3 on plug, 3 on cap to 4 on plug and 4 on cap to 2 on plug?

Or does that mean 1 on cap to 1 on plug, 2 on cap to 2 on plug, 3 on cap to 3 on plug 4 on cap to 4 on plug?

Yes (highlighted). The way you have it is incorrect - that would give a firing order of 1-2-3-4

[Tassiejames]

and now check the mixture is back to correct :)

[Mud Dog]

And? ......... Did it start?

[pampoen]

No:( I have tested for spark on the coil. I cleaned the old dizzy and put it back, I rechecked firing order. My next job tomorrow will be to check for earth on coil but that is simply where it bolts to the engine bay I would imagine, check fuses and try again. Do you have any pearls of wisdom to add? Any thing I should possibly check?

[Mud Dog]

The adjustment screw on the carb is really just an air screw that affects idle more than anything else. If you cannot remember the position where it was before, turn it all the way in (not tight) and then turn it 1½ turns out. Once the motor is running you can do the finer adjustment, but for now 1½ turns out will do.

More importantly, I'm wondering if you have the timing correct and not 180° out. Remember, this is a 4 stroke motor so there are 2 upward strokes per cycle - i.e. there are 2 x TDC positions of the piston for every 1 x ignition spark. (180° out on timing will mean that the plug fires a few degrees BTDC on the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke).

So if it doesn't start, you could go the proper route and remove the tappet cover to verify the cam position on TDC no.1 cylinder or you could take a short-cut and rotate the dizzy by 180°. However, I don't think the position of the dizzy on the motor and the peripherals around it allow for it to be rotated without snagging. So, take off the dizzy cap and manually turn the motor to the TDC position on the crank pulley, release the distributor but before pulling it out note it's orientation position (of the dizzy body in relation to the motor) and hold that orientation position while pulling it out - the rotor will turn while the spiral spline disengages from the cam gear. Allow it to turn but don't interfere with it's position (in relation to the dizzy body) after you've removed it. Then manually turn the crankshaft one full revolution back to the TDC position again. Re-insert the dizzy taking care to keep the same orientation position as when you removed it, and make sure it's fully home. You could be one spline out, so check the rotor position in relation to the no1 lead on the cap. If it's a little out, either rotate the dizzy to get back to the rotor being on no 1 lead, or remove the dizzy slowly and once it's free from the cam gear turn the rotor a little in whichever direction necessary to compensate and slide the dizzy back home. Secure it loosely so that you can adjust the timing more precisely with a timing light when the motor is running.

If you don't have a timing light, shout, and I'll tell you how to get it more or less where it should be until you can get a light or have it checked.

[pampoen]

Thanks Mud Dog, REALLY appreciate the help man. I will try all that. For some reason I forgot that 4 stroke engines will have 2 tdc positions Just FYI when starting the bakkie this afternoon with the leads in their correct positions the bakkie sounded like the motor was jammed almost. Obviously this was not the case because I was able to turn the engine a full 360 degree's rotation. I'm wondering if the timing is 180 out? I am almost 100% sure that is the prob.

Will keep you informed!

[Mud Dog]

[Mud Dog]

The only way to be certain is to remove the tappet cover to check the cam position. Not a major issue and if you crack it loose and lift it carefully, disturbing the rubber gasket as little as possible, you can re-use it.

I looked back amongst my images and found this one showing the valve timing marks (green arrows). Ideally they should be perfectly in line when the crank pulley is exactly on the TDC mark, but in this pic the crank was obviously not properly on TDC.

For your purposes, you won't be interfering with the valve timing, just looking for the timing mark on the sprocket - when it is at the top then the crank TDC position will be on the compression stroke. There has to be a timing mark but if you don't see one, then just look at the cam lobes and rockers for no.1 cylinder. The lobes should be facing downwards - no tension on the rockers (i.e. valves up and closed).

[pampoen]

So update.... No start took tappet cover off and made sure it was bang on, it was 180 out like you said, so I set it back. Adjusted mixture screw 2 and a half turns out from fully in. Made sure leads were all good and tight. Do you know what the process is for testing the coil and igniter?

[Mud Dog]

That's not lekker!

What I would do at this point is to check that there is spark to the plugs. Remove them and reconnect them, lying them on the exhaust manifold with the gap visible. Then get someone to help and swing the motor while you look for spark on each plug (just make sure it's in neutral!) - otherwise, with the ignition on, bridge the terminals on the starter coil to swing the motor yourself - it tends to arc, so just use an old screwdriver or something that doesn't matter if it gets arc pitting.

If there is no spark at all, I would first look at the HT cable from the coil to the dizzy, and then at the dizzy itself. The coil is not likely to have failed during the time that you've been working on the vehicle, not impossible though, but other than it still being wired correctly, it would be the last thing I'd check.

If the spark is there, and you've set the timing correctly, then fuelling may be the problem. By the way, I said the air screw should be 1½ turns out, not 2½ turns.

Failing that, you might need some help on site. Personally I still suspect an ignition problem, either electrical or mechanical.

[Reenen]

Do you mean 1 on cap should go too 1 on plug, 2 on cap to 3 on plug, 3 on cap to 4 on plug and 4 on cap to 2 on plug?

Or does that mean 1 on cap to 1 on plug, 2 on cap to 2 on plug, 3 on cap to 3 on plug 4 on cap to 4 on plug?

Yes (highlighted). The way you have it is incorrect - that would give a firing order of 1-2-3-4

Sorry sounds like a stupid question, but I had it plug 1 on cap 1,plug 2 to cap 2, plug 3 to cap 3, plug 4 to cap 4 and it would not start.

Do you mean 1 on cap should go too 1 on plug, 2 on cap to 3 on plug, 3 on cap to 4 on plug and 4 on cap to 2 on plug?

Or does that mean 1 on cap to 1 on plug, 2 on cap to 2 on plug, 3 on cap to 3 on plug 4 on cap to 4 on plug?

No no. 1 on cap, to 1 on lead, to no 1 piston
2 on cap, to 2 on lead, to no 2 piston. 3 to 3 to 3 poston.

The cap is not marked 1234, but 1342, with an arrow showing direction.

[Mud Dog]

Markings on the cap? Is this something relatively new to help mechanics that don't know how to figure it out?

My cap has no markings that I am aware of. That's why I say that where the rotor points on TDC compression is no. 1 cylinder - the next contact on the cap in the direction which the rotor turns must go to no. 3 cylinder, the 3rd contact on the cap must go to no. 4 cylinder and the last / 4th contact on the cap must go to no.2 cylinder. Thus a firing order of 1342.

[Reenen]

I'm busy rebuilding a 7m engine. 1986-1992 I think they came out.
1989 one I'm working on.

Cap is marked 1-6, but in firing order, and every sparkug lead is also marked.

I take it Pampoen's one is similarly marked.

[Reenen]

Ek sal n foto gaan neem en probeer post

[Reenen]

https://imgur.com/gallery/hbihh

[Mud Dog]

Yoh! First time I see that. Maybe I've never looked close enough but I'm pretty sure my 22R doesn't have it - it could of course be an after market cap that I have.

[Mars]

Quick question for Pampoen. Does the engine start if you put the old distributor back in the correct position with the firing order correct?

[pampoen]

Just an update. The no starting issue was a dead dizzy, the module was fried, so on went a new dizzy and then I spent another few hours realizing that the main jet was completely blocked, cleaned that and walla! start. Now she revs up beautifully but It still sounds like it's missing as it idles. I have new plugs, new dizzy, new leads. Just a question, would the carb have anything to do with slight miss?

[Mud Dog]

If the miss is intermittent, it's possible - check that air screw on the carb. Next is get a timing light on there and set the timing (start at 5° BTDC at idle 800rpm).

If that doesn't solve the problem, check the rotor, rotor cap, plugs and leads (even a new dizzy could have a cracked cap).

[pietpetoors]

Is your timing not maybe out by 180 degree. Sounds like either timing or incorrect plug lead order. For latter look which way rotor rotates and follow plugs leads, order should be 1,3,4,2