2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Some useful articles on doing it yourself
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2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Family_Dog »

1. The Right Way.

Symptom:
Bulldog started to misfire at road speeds of 100+km/hr - ±3000rpm. When stationary, could rev up to 4000rpm before the misfire started.

Diagnosis:
Bulldog was the very first Benny EFI conversion and we used an optical sensor to provide the required signals for the Dicktator unit. It was a stinking hot day and I assumed (more about this later!) that the opto-switch, which was only rated at 85°C, might be providing false information under extreme temperatures.
Dizzy with Opto Sensor01_Resize.jpg
Dizzy with Opto Sensor04_Resize.jpg
What I did:
You should always disconnect the negative pole of the battery before doing any work inside the engine bay.

As I had a spare distributor, I decided to swap the dizzy out with the spare, which would indicate whether the old dizzy was indeed faulty. I lined up the rotor with the engine timing set at TDC 0° (or so I thought...) and marked the position of the rotor - refer photo.

WARNING: Make VERY SURE that the crank pulley is set to 0° BEFORE your remove the dizzy!! You do this by means or a socket (22 or 23, forgot which) and, with the hand brake on and the car in neutral, turn the crank against compression until the timing mark is lined up to zero.

First noting the position of the dizzy lock nut, which was forced fully over to the right hand side as the Dictator takes care of the timing, I then removed the distributor by loosening the nut and extracting the dizzy.
P1010851_Resize.jpg
I unplugged the Molex Connector that Bennie had fitted to the wiring harness to make it easier to swap out dizzy's with minimal wiring changes and installed the new dizzy, taking note that the rotor will swing due to the bevel gear from the crankshaft. Made sure I had the rotor in line with the previously marked pencil line as shown in the photos - you might have to remove and replace the dizzy a couple of times to get it right - and then tightened the lock nut, also ensuring the dizzy was in the correct position as shown.
P1010852_Resize.jpg
Reconnect the dizzy Molex connector and the battery.

WARNING:

Make VERY SURE that you have first removed the socket and handle from the crankshaft pulley nut BEFORE you start the engine.

Start the car.


-F_D
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Family_Dog »

2. The Wrong Way:

This details the stupid things I did instead of doing it all as above.

I now understand that for every one rotation the rotor makes of the Distributor, the Crankshaft makes two rotations. Thus I was 180° out and the car would not start. I also do not (yet!) own a timing light, but that would have really helped even though it is not essential to this job.

Because I could not find the timing mark on the crank pulley (it was 180° out... stoopid! :oops: ), I figured I will remove the spark plug from #1 cylinder and try determine whether the piston was at TDC. But I was working alone and I needed to crank the car. So I figured if I put a screwdriver through the open plug hole and quickly crank the ignition for a split second, I would see whether the screw driver goes up or down.

Hah!

The screwdriver, about 6mm thick, was whip-lashed by the piston and now has a permanent bend to it where the piston pushed it up and bent it, instead of moving it gently to and fro. And I still had no idea where TDC was.

Anxious call to Mike the Mechanic to bring his timing light, as I figured I had now broken a piston, bent a valve and who knows what else.

Mike explained to me how to find TDC and the use of a socket to rotate the engine. Before this, I set the gear ever in 5H and simply puffed and pushed the car until the rotor was in the required position.

When Mike left, the car was running.

I switched the engine off and started to tidy up. I cable-tied the dizzy wire with the Molex connector out of the way of the moving fan belts and started the car one last time, confident of a job well done.

Nothing. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

Frantic phone calls to Bennie, as the Dicktator was doing everything it was supposed to do, but the car would not start.

I now figure it has to be the TP100 ignitor, so off to Diesel Elec to buy a Golf TP100 and also a new harness for it.
P1020482_Resize.jpg
But on the way home, I decided to try one more thing. Check for spark. Again, this is not that easy to do when you're alone, but I managed to jury-rig a screwdriver into #1 plug lead and let it lie close to the body of the car where I could see if there was a spark while cranking the engine with the ignition key.

No spark. :think:

Now... it cannot be the coil and distributor because I had already swapped them over. I am clearly rather doff when it comes to car mechanics and such but it had to be an electrical fault and so I put my thinking cap on, studied the scene of the crime last night carefully.... and I found the problem in s split second of rare genius!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

All will be revealed later.


-F_D
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Mud Dog »

The obvious thing would be to retrace your steps to where the motor was running ..... Your tidying of the wires might have interfered with the molex connector or other connections / was the dizzy properly secure before you started pulling on wires - might have pulled it out of position / or did you create a short between wiring or even a short to earth. :think: (Worse - did you disconnect the battery before tidying up and forget to re-connect!!) :D:
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Mr_B »

Eric you should have called for help right from the word go...

First I take it you had another EFi converted distributor... did Bennie make you a spare 3YE dual pickup up dizzi with ext. mag adapter?? If you attempted to used the a std non converted dissi, it would never work, because the ECU needs a timing pulse from the dizzi to wire the injectors and cycle the HP fuel pump...

You are 100% right, piston 1 passes the "TBC" position twice per cycle, once on the compression stroke, once on the exhaust stroke... so it's pretty easy to fit the dizzi 180deg out... I've done it a few times...

A faulty opti dissi can usually be diagnosed by watch the timing table in the Dicktator software, at idle the timing mark may suddenly jump to usual points on the map, for no reason... same would manifest as RPM is increased...

The only noteable difference between the opti and mag adapter dizzi, is that the opti dissi can produce pulses at very low rpms, making a push start very easy, whereas the mag adapter version produces pulses from about 150 - 200 rpm... I learnt that this is quite important last week, when I forgot my lights on... had to use jumpers as running started didn't work, we couldn't push the car fast enough(the bat was dead flat though)...

Ok back to why the car wouldn't start?? ... the batt neg came off... the molex connection pulled loose while cable tie'ing everything... the pulse wire from the dissi to ECU got scragged... TP100's plug came loose... the dizzi cap was loose...

Come lets hear???

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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Family_Dog »

I think I should mention that Bulldog would not start at all last week either when I got home, presenting me with a huge problem on how to get him up the ramp to the garage. But then after a couple of hours of leaving him alone. when I tried again, he started quite nicely. I pulled into the garage and revved the engine, which built up revs easily to just short of 5000rpm and then died again. It never started after that at all, until Mike sorted out that the dizzy was 180 out. Then the motor started.

The Molex connecter and lead was loosely cable-tied, I did not tie it tightly, just sufficiently so that it would not fowl any fan belts.

Some more pics:

My engine is not always filthy dirty, it is quite clean now. This also led me to think I had got water in where I shouldn't have, with the HP washer.
P1020487_Resize.jpg
The bent screwdriver (top one)... 8mm thick, not 6mm as I previously mentioned.
P1020492_Resize.jpg
The new Molex Connector, still loosely tied out of the way. Refer the first picture in this post.
P1020495_Resize.jpg

Puzzling, eh?


-F_D
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by BenHur »

from the Email I send you wrote:
Eric

I am sure you have a dry joint somewhere,

1. First with the ignition switched off check the 4 pin dizzy plug for continuity.
2. Then test continuity between Igniter pin 1 and the coil neg . Its connected to he left pin on the coil.
3. Also check continuity between the left and right pins on the coil as well as the HT side (Never had a original Toy coil blow before only that one chonky coil of yours that did not spark nicely but it still worked)
4. Check continuity between the Igniter Pin 2 and the head?
5. Now switch on the ignition and test for 12v on the right pin of the dizzy.

That TP 100 you bought has no heat shield on it will burn out, you need a decent piece of aluminium bolted onto it with conductive paste. Did you not come right at the scrapyard? maybe they will be able to supply you one of a VW (later model citi's golf/Jetta II not sure if Golf/Jetta III still used the same but I guess they do)
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Family_Dog »

Hi Bennie, all is sorted an BullDog is once more purring like a puppy!

It was a crappy fault and I will reveal all later!


-F_D
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White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Mud Dog »

Family_Dog wrote:Hi Bennie, all is sorted an BullDog is once more purring like a puppy!

It was a crappy fault and I will reveal all later!


-F_D
You playing a 'who dunnit' or rather 'what dunnit' game! You trying to test our diagnostic skills, Eric!? :D:
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by BenHur »

Family_Dog wrote:Hi Bennie, all is sorted an BullDog is once more purring like a puppy!

It was a crappy fault and I will reveal all later!


-F_D
Come one Eric dont be like so :think: :think:
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Family_Dog »

You guys must suffer like I did! Then it worked, then it didn't, so obviously an electrical fault - but where?

Oh allright... it has been mentioned earlier on once or twice, but it was a snotty fault.

The symptoms once again:

1. Started to misfire under load at 3000rpm when driving.
2. Revved freely to between 4000 - 5000rpm here at home before stuttering, and then finally cutting out.
3. After 2 above, no amount of coaxing could get it to start again :(
4. A few hours later, without opening the bonnet, I tried to start it - it fired up!
5. Pulled into garage and swapped dizzy's as mentioned above.
6. Eventually logical thinking set in - but difficult to test the logic of this when one is alone.
7. Perseverance and the thought of the impossible - but yes, that was the answer!
8. What I did was to $%*&(+_*+#)*(*_#@!stutter--099r=-0wl and then %T&(*$_(# & that fixed it! ;)


A two minute job - *IF* you knwew where to look in the first place! Hope this can help someone with a similar problem.


-F_D
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Mud Dog »

Family_Dog wrote:You guys must suffer like I did! Then it worked, then it didn't, so obviously an electrical fault - but where?

Oh allright... it has been mentioned earlier on once or twice, but it was a snotty fault.

The symptoms once again:

1. Started to misfire under load at 3000rpm when driving.
2. Revved freely to between 4000 - 5000rpm here at home before stuttering, and then finally cutting out.
3. After 2 above, no amount of coaxing could get it to start again :(
4. A few hours later, without opening the bonnet, I tried to start it - it fired up!
5. Pulled into garage and swapped dizzy's as mentioned above.
6. Eventually logical thinking set in - but difficult to test the logic of this when one is alone.
7. Perseverance and the thought of the impossible - but yes, that was the answer!
8. What I did was to $%*&(+_*+#)*(*_#@!stutter--099r=-0wl and then %T&(*$_(# & that fixed it! ;)


A two minute job - *IF* you knwew where to look in the first place! Hope this can help someone with a similar problem.


-F_D
Something I don't understand ....... what means "knwew" ?? :problem: :confused: :think: :?
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by BenHur »

Come ou toppie stop being like such :crazy: :crazy:
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by BenHur »

What mischief are you up to? The last pic you posted is not a recent one, that still have the original 1x4 Molex connector, not the later 2x2 automotive type connector we changed to with the magnetic dizzy :shock: :shock:
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Mr_B »

It's official... F_D has lost it... dreamt the whole thing on Friday night... woke up Sat morning believing what he dreamt is reality... :shifty:

Eric please take your meds... remember what happened last time... :silent:

Mr B :twisted:
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Zandyl »

I think he forgot what the problem was and now wants us to remind him :lol: :lol:
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Mud Dog »

Zandyl wrote:I think he forgot what the problem was and now wants us to remind him :lol: :lol:
Mwah-ha-ha .... :lol: :lol: :lol: .... BIG mistake to have just taken a mouthfull of coffee as I read that! :lol: ..... just cleaned up now ... shirt / trousers / keyboard ... what a mess! :lol:
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Mr_B »

Without meds Eric's amnesia is so bad... he's probably forgot all about this thread!
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Family_Dog »

BenHur wrote:What mischief are you up to? The last pic you posted is not a recent one, that still have the original 1x4 Molex connector, not the later 2x2 automotive type connector we changed to with the magnetic dizzy :shock: :shock:
The pic does look funny, I agree, but it is the correct 2+2 connector and was taken yesterday - note the numbering sequence.

Here are some better better pics I have just taken without the flash, only used the fluorescent lights in the garage.
P1020498_Resize.jpg
P1020496_Resize.jpg
This photo was taken from the bonnet side, the other from the fender side.

OK, what happened... we fitted the new 2+2 connector as shown in December, it uses four spade terminals in the bottom half and four female receptacles in the top half of the sketch. The locking tooth in one of the Male spade connectors had somehow become compressed and did not lock the male spade terminal, resulting in the terminal sliding back in its receptacle and therefore making intermittent contact with its associated female contact. Now this was at times *just* making contact, and that is when the engine started. Move the cable ever so slightly, the contact was lost and the engine would not start. I had previously checked the individual wires to ensure they were tight where we had soldered them into the harness, but only visually looked at the Female connector before, I *assumed* (stoopid word) that because the wires there were not loose and the connector was new, that there would be no problems with the Male connector, which was facing vertically down to the ground and therefore not in my line of sight. But I was wrong...!!


Such a simple fault which should have taken a few seconds to rectifiy, *if* I had properly visually checked both sides of the connector! Congratulations to those of you who diagnosed correctly.... but I had given plenty of clues in the photographs and text! :mrgreen: :lol:


Have I learnt form he experience? Most definitely, and am happy to have found the problem and discovered shortcomings that could have left me stranded in the bush. But now I am confident that if I were to repeat the whole exercise of removing and inserting a new dizzy, I would be up and about within a matter of minutes and not hours! A worrying experience at the time but produced an excellent learning lesson for me, and I doubt I will forget this again. :)


-F_D
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Dadz Toy BFI »

Family_Dog wrote:
Have I learnt form he experience..............

-F_D
1. never doubt BenHur's Optical Dizzy's, they rock!! ;-)
2. never doubt the reliabilty of 4Y Efi ;-)

Glad you're sorted Eric, now you've got a few spares to add to your box nê :wink:

Ps... nice peekchaz 8 )
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Mr_B »

Dadz Toy BFI wrote: 1. never doubt BenHur's Optical Dizzy's, they rock!! ;-)

Uuuuummmm Rich... I've still got your faulty optical dissi lying in the garage... do you want it back?? :twisted:
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Family_Dog »

Must admit I prefer the Optical Dizzy... it has pulled through beautifully so far, and it was not at fault here at all. I was concerned about the high temperatures though, as the Optical Sensor was only rated for 85°C, but it's 100% fine still! :thumbup:


-F_D
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Mr_B »

As I've said many many times before... it's the quality of installation that usually messes up an EFi conversion! :shh:

Who did your installation Eric?? :silent:
Did u get a guarantee or was it another 'fly-by-night' oke? :angel:

Mr B :D:
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Dadz Toy BFI »

Mr_B wrote:
Dadz Toy BFI wrote: 1. never doubt BenHur's Optical Dizzy's, they rock!! ;-)

Uuuuummmm Rich... I've still got your faulty optical dissi lying in the garage... do you want it back?? :twisted:
My MKII Opti-dizzy is running fine dude :wink:
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Mr_B »

Ummm... you mean my opti dizzi?? I'm still going to fix this one(ours), get it running 100%, then I may consider putting it back in... but Rich our opti dizzi's are not the same as Eric's!

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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Mud Dog »

Congratulations to those of you who diagnosed correctly.... but I had given plenty of clues in the photographs and text!
HA! Take note ... my diagnosis was posted before any pics of the connector! :lol: :wink:
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.

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Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
Dadz Toy BFI

Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Dadz Toy BFI »

Mr_B wrote:Ummm... you mean my opti dizzi?? I'm still going to fix this one(ours), get it running 100%, then I may consider putting it back in... but Rich our opti dizzi's are not the same as Eric's!

Mr B
Yar, yar, yar.... symantics.... fish paste :wink:

It's the ease at which Dadz starts that constantly thrills me (sometimes without turning the key nê) :wink:

It was darn darn H O T in the sand this w/end, some say upper 40's, my cab temp was 55' - but didn't stop Dadz puuring; Viva 4y Efi reliability :P :mrgreen:

What's Eric's got that ours hasn't (apart from a dodgy connector block) :?
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Family_Dog
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Family_Dog »

Mr_B wrote:Ummm... you mean my opti dizzi?? I'm still going to fix this one(ours), get it running 100%, then I may consider putting it back in... but Rich our opti dizzi's are not the same as Eric's!

Mr B

You're right there - mine still works and has never let me down!

The spade terminal thing was just one of those things, weird it only came to light so much later but it was still a good learning curve. The reliability of the conversion itself cannot be questioned, it is 100% excellent.


-F_D
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White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
Bull Dog: 1987 4Y-EFI 2.2 DC 4x4
Pra Dog: 1998 Prado VX 3.4
Hound Dog: 2000 2.7i SC 4x4


One Staffie, One Jack Russell, One Ring Neck Screecher, 17 Fish of questionable heritage


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CasKru
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by CasKru »

Should have bought a 22R :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Eric you know why this happened? It's because you confused me earlier that morning :shifty: :shifty: :D: :D:
To God be the glory
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Family_Dog »

CasKru wrote:Should have bought a 22R :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Eric you know why this happened? It's because you confused me earlier that morning :shifty: :shifty: :D: :D:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Was good while it lasted! :mrgreen:


-F_D
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White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
Bull Dog: 1987 4Y-EFI 2.2 DC 4x4
Pra Dog: 1998 Prado VX 3.4
Hound Dog: 2000 2.7i SC 4x4


One Staffie, One Jack Russell, One Ring Neck Screecher, 17 Fish of questionable heritage


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CasKru
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by CasKru »

Family_Dog wrote:
CasKru wrote:Should have bought a 22R :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Eric you know why this happened? It's because you confused me earlier that morning :shifty: :shifty: :D: :D:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Was good while it lasted! :mrgreen:


-F_D
How to confuse Cassie 101
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by BenHur »

Mr_B wrote:had to use jumpers as running started didn't work, we couldn't push the car fast enough(the bat was dead flat though)...
Hey Britney if the battery was dead an optical dizzy would not have helped as you still would not be able to push her fast enough for the alternator to produce enough voltage to run the coil, HP pump injectors etc. all at once. These things need power too before you van can start... :shock: :shock:
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Mr_B »

BenHur wrote:
Mr_B wrote:had to use jumpers as running started didn't work, we couldn't push the car fast enough(the bat was dead flat though)...
Hey Britney if the battery was dead an optical dizzy would not have helped as you still would not be able to push her fast enough for the alternator to produce enough voltage to run the coil, HP pump injectors etc. all at once. These things need power too before you van can start... :shock: :shock:
True Bennie, I never thought of that at the time... the battery was totally flat... in fact i had it charged yesterday, and overnight it ran flat again... so I assume the batt is stuffed... time to fit the GertC's dual battery controller(with 'lights on,ignition off' warning alarm...) would have saved me a few buck! I'm giving the batt one last charge today to see what happens, it might be that something elec defective is drawing current... but probably not...

Mr B
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by ThysdJ »

Mr_B wrote:
BenHur wrote:
Mr_B wrote:had to use jumpers as running started didn't work, we couldn't push the car fast enough(the bat was dead flat though)...
Hey Britney if the battery was dead an optical dizzy would not have helped as you still would not be able to push her fast enough for the alternator to produce enough voltage to run the coil, HP pump injectors etc. all at once. These things need power too before you van can start... :shock: :shock:
True Bennie, I never thought of that at the time... the battery was totally flat... in fact i had it charged yesterday, and overnight it ran flat again... so I assume the batt is stuffed... time to fit the GertC's dual battery controller(with 'lights on,ignition off' warning alarm...) would have saved me a few buck! I'm giving the batt one last charge today to see what happens, it might be that something elec defective is drawing current... but probably not...

Mr B
Go visit Allan, he's got a connection for some really funky high cycle batteries, and he's getting me one today. You visit would serve 2 purposes, one to remind him about mine, and two to get your own... :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
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2010 Hilux 3.0 D4D D/C 4x4 with GOMAD "Brood" Canopy. Tripod.
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Dadz Toy BFI »

Whatever battery you fit Mr_B, you should be using your Auto Battery Charger 24/7 ; quickest way to kill any battery is being a part-time Lux driver dude ;-)
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Hoppy »

okay, will order now!
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" I WOULD RATHER SIT ON THE TAILGATE OF MY HILUX WITH A BEER AND A CHOP, WATCHING A FIRE, THAN DINE IN THE BEST RESTAURANT IN TOWN "
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by zepplin »

Allan, what sizes & how much for your 'specials'?
Crooza VX 80 efi - fully locked.
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by BenHur »

Dadz Toy BFI wrote:Whatever battery you fit Mr_B, you should be using your Auto Battery Charger 24/7 ; quickest way to kill any battery is being a part-time Lux driver dude ;-)
:thumbup: :thumbup:

You right, come britney you need one of these

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2574

It even comes with a plug that you connect to the battery permanently and the socket you can mount in the grill, so you dont even need to open the bonnet to plug it in. :thumbup: :thumbup: The smallboet BX1 will also do but the BX2 is a beast, I have both BX1 and BX2. :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Re: 2200 EFI "Stuttering" and cutting out

Post by Mr_B »

Tx Bennie, I already told Kim I'm getting one... probably the BX1... I got the new battery via Allan same day...geesh this thing cranks the engine over much better than the old exide one!

Mr B
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