Recovery Points.......PLEASE Vote AFTER reading

[MOFASA]

Hi Hiluxers.

I have designed a recover point that fits to the front chassis using original mounting holes in the chassis.
They laser cut from 10mm mild steel and work very well.
At the most it will take you 15min per side to fit.

I have decided that depending on order quantity I will get the sets made up.
They will be unfinished (meaning unpainted) as some people will want different colours for their vehicles.
If you Hiluxers want a complete finished set I can look into the costs involved in the different finishes.
I have added a poll to see the outcome of the product supplied, meaning FINISHED or UNFINISHED.

At the moment unfinished the cost will be about R300 per set of 2 recovery points excluding the 4 HT bolts needed for fitting.
Looking into the bulk cost of bolts but need to see if people will buy the product first.
Delivery time will depend on order quantity. The bigger the order the sooner I can collect from the laser cutters.

Please give feed back on this product.

In order to supply all the different models of Hilux's and other vehicles (all makes of vehicles), I am looking for some guys to give up some time to measure up there vehicles (IFS and newer) for product development. Then once the first set is made I need to test the recovery points on the vehicle. I will then give you the recovery points at a really good price.
Testing of the recovery points will not cause damage to your vehicle as they WILL be fitted with graded bolts, etc.

The pics below are a preview of the recovery points for the Hilux SFA. (I have just cleaned off the small burs and sprayed them black)

[CasKru]

Just a quick question from my side... will most of the strain now not be on only the one bolt due to the adjusting slot?

[BenRich]

Hi Johnno,

I have a 2009 Vigo with standard bumper. Have been looking for a set of recovery points for some time now. I'm in Boksburg so if you want you have a Vigo to measure.

Ben

[MOFASA]

Just a quick question from my side... will most of the strain now not be on only the one bolt due to the adjusting slot?

On that specific set it would be more on the one bolt but the slot will be changed.
The holes in the NEW sets will be exact.
I have not had any issues with them on my vehicle up to date and they were tested in 5 different situations.
The size of the bolt helps as its an imperial bolt around M12/ M13 size.
The spec's that I have researched note that 2xM8 bolts OR 1xM12 bolt will be enough for recovery in most situations.

[MOFASA]

Hi Johnno,

I have a 2009 Vigo with standard bumper. Have been looking for a set of recovery points for some time now. I'm in Boksburg so if you want you have a Vigo to measure.

Ben

Awsum I will take you up on that offer.
Pm me your address and number so we can make a plan to get it done.

[LouisZ]

As Cassie said the slotted hole should be only a hole. Then also allow more metal around the holes for shear strength.

Go for raw finish

[CasKru]

Just a quick question from my side... will most of the strain now not be on only the one bolt due to the adjusting slot?

On that specific set it would be more on the one bolt but the slot will be changed.
The holes in the NEW sets will be exact.
I have not had any issues with them on my vehicle up to date and they were tested in 5 different situations.
The size of the bolt helps as its an imperial bolt around M12/ M13 size.
The spec's that I have researched note that 2xM8 bolts OR 1xM12 bolt will be enough for recovery in most situations.

Sounds good

[Ali3n]

Nice idea Johno but I have a few questions if I may.

1: what will the rating be on these recovery points?
2: HT bolts. I have a problem with these because I have been thinking. HT bolts are rated but that rating is for vertical pull strength. What about sideways pull? HT bolts are brittle thus more than likely to snap and NOT bend where normal bolts have a lot more forgiveness and will bend first before snapping off. What is your opinion?

[CasKru]

Nice idea Johno but I have a few questions if I may.

1: what will the rating be on these recovery points?
2: HT bolts. I have a problem with these because I have been thinking. HT bolts are rated but that rating is for vertical pull strength. What about sideways pull? HT bolts are brittle thus more than likely to snap and NOT bend where normal bolts have a lot more forgiveness and will bend first before snapping off. What is your opinion?

I will still go for the HT bolts. Remember the forces are not always straight from the front

[Ali3n]

But that is exactly my point. The forces are being applies from the side for which it is not rated thus more than likely to snap and not bend.

[CasKru]

But that is exactly my point. The forces are being applies from the side for which it is not rated thus more than likely to snap and not bend.

Nope... don't agree. If you use HT bolts and you torque them properly with washers and lock nuts, they will far outlast the normal bolts

[Ali3n]

But that is exactly my point. The forces are being applies from the side for which it is not rated thus more than likely to snap and not bend.

Nope... don't agree. If you use HT bolts and you torque them properly with washers and lock nuts, they will far outlast the normal bolts

Thats now in a perfect world. What is the torque rating of 8.8 HT bolt? How often do you check them? Not many people know that that needs to be done.

[MOFASA]

But that is exactly my point. The forces are being applies from the side for which it is not rated thus more than likely to snap and not bend.

Nope... don't agree. If you use HT bolts and you torque them properly with washers and lock nuts, they will far outlast the normal bolts

I have to agree with Cas on the HT bolts.....
With 2xM10 8.8 rated bolts bolted and at the correct torque into the chassis will bend, dent, rip the chassis before breaking the bolt.

[Ali3n]

But that is exactly my point. The forces are being applies from the side for which it is not rated thus more than likely to snap and not bend.

Nope... don't agree. If you use HT bolts and you torque them properly with washers and lock nuts, they will far outlast the normal bolts

I have to agree with Cas on the HT bolts.....
With 2xM10 8.8 rated bolts bolted and at the correct torque into the chassis will bend, dent, rip the chassis before breaking the bolt.

Does one want to rather destroy your chassis in a perfect world?

[MOFASA]

Nice idea Johno but I have a few questions if I may.

1: what will the rating be on these recovery points?
2: HT bolts. I have a problem with these because I have been thinking. HT bolts are rated but that rating is for vertical pull strength. What about sideways pull? HT bolts are brittle thus more than likely to snap and NOT bend where normal bolts have a lot more forgiveness and will bend first before snapping off. What is your opinion?

I would have to send them for SABS testing to be able to say for sure on the rating.
BUT
Here is something for you to think about.
A 10mmx10mm square bar 100mm long can handle 40000N which equates to 4000Kg at snap strength so I quite sure the recovery points will handle 2500kg each safely....
So if you recover the way it should be done by spreading the load then you could say it they will handle 5000Kg.
If you work a WLL into it then 4000Kg between them should me VERY close to max safe WLL

[Rafs]

so, how big a shackle does that hole take?

[MOFASA]

But that is exactly my point. The forces are being applies from the side for which it is not rated thus more than likely to snap and not bend.

Nope... don't agree. If you use HT bolts and you torque them properly with washers and lock nuts, they will far outlast the normal bolts

I have to agree with Cas on the HT bolts.....
With 2xM10 8.8 rated bolts bolted and at the correct torque into the chassis will bend, dent, rip the chassis before breaking the bolt.

Does one want to rather destroy your chassis in a perfect world?[/quote]

Has anybody not told you that we DONT live in a perfect world
In a perfect world we wouldn't need ANY recovery equipment cos nobody would get stuck.....
But I would rather the recovery point not become a lethal projectile.....

[Ali3n]

Nice idea Johno but I have a few questions if I may.

1: what will the rating be on these recovery points?
2: HT bolts. I have a problem with these because I have been thinking. HT bolts are rated but that rating is for vertical pull strength. What about sideways pull? HT bolts are brittle thus more than likely to snap and NOT bend where normal bolts have a lot more forgiveness and will bend first before snapping off. What is your opinion?

I would have to send them for SABS testing to be able to say for sure on the rating.
BUT
Here is something for you to think about.
A 10mmx10mm square bar 100mm long can handle 40000N which equates to 4000Kg at snap strength so I quite sure the recovery points will handle 2500kg each safely....
So if you recover the way it should be done by spreading the load then you could say it they will handle 5000Kg.
If you work a WLL into it then 4000Kg between them should me VERY close to max safe WLL

Cool, was just curious as to what the rating on your points would be.

[Cleaner]

Interesting point on the HT bolts, and I have always wondered about it myself.


Fasteners carry loads in one of two ways:-
Tensile Load.



Where the load is acting to separate the fastened components along the shank length, it is referred to as a tensile load. Tensile loads try to elongate the fastener.

Shear Load



Where the load is acting to separate the fastened components across the shank diameter, it is referred to as a shear load. Shear loads try to cut the fastener in half.
The load carrying capability of a fastener is somewhat less in shear than in tensile and will further vary if the shear plane is across the threads rather than the plane shank.
Some applications could exert a combination of tensile and shear loads.

The above information referenced from "http://www.jamesglen.com/materials-mech ... -markings/"

Now taking that into account, in the design of the above recovery hooks, you will exert more pressure on the Shear Load than on the Tensile Load, or a combination thereof.

Which have the higher Shear Rating - HT or Normal Bolts, as it would seem that the High Tensile in this case is the lesser of the two forces.

[MOFASA]

so, how big a shackle does that hole take?

The hole to attach shackles to is 30mm in diameter t accommodate any size shackle the 4x4er will be carrying for recovery purpose.
Overkill it can handle a shackle with a 28mm diameter pin..... that should pull a coal train....

Cool, was just curious as to what the rating on your points would be.

In the future I would like to get them rated by SABS but the tests are quite expensive....

[Rafs]

cool tnx

[ThysdJ]

Mild steel bolts are not sufficient for attaching recovery points.. ever... If the bolts are torqued properly after each kinetic recovery, there is very little chance that they will snap rather than bend. If any bolt holding a recovery point bends the bolt was not tightened enough. Even mild steel bolts wont bend, but will sheer off.

All this stuff about load-rating of recovery points IS very relevant, but I would much rather use these, than not have any recovery points at all. First prize would be rated points, but not all vehicles can accommodate them without extensive "plastic" surgery..

Make them RED Jonno...

[CasKru]

I also say red... but maybe painted and not powder coated.

[Ali3n]

Exactly, In a perfect world those bolts will be correctly torqued and checked regularly as everyone will know what the torque settings are.

We are not in a perfect world thus are they torqued correctly? If not then they ARE capable of sheering off and becoming a lethal projectile in any case.

In a perfect world everyone will have the correct recovery gear (bridals, lanyards, shackles and so on) so on to try and prevent a lethal situation like that but sadly not all have the funds to afford all that jazz and I seriously doubt they will have the funds to replace a car. This is turning into a discussion on safety, gear and so which can become tedious so lets just focus on the bolt.

I was just expressing my opinion on HT bolts and was curious to know what other people thought.

Reasons behind my questions were because I am planning my own recovery hooks and was curious. I really like your design.

[MOFASA]

Interesting point on the HT bolts, and I have always wondered about it myself.


Fasteners carry loads in one of two ways:-
Tensile Load.



Where the load is acting to separate the fastened components along the shank length, it is referred to as a tensile load. Tensile loads try to elongate the fastener.

Shear Load



Where the load is acting to separate the fastened components across the shank diameter, it is referred to as a shear load. Shear loads try to cut the fastener in half.
The load carrying capability of a fastener is somewhat less in shear than in tensile and will further vary if the shear plane is across the threads rather than the plane shank.
Some applications could exert a combination of tensile and shear loads.

The above information referenced from "http://www.jamesglen.com/materials-mech ... -markings/"

Now taking that into account, in the design of the above recovery hooks, you will exert more pressure on the Shear Load than on the Tensile Load, or a combination thereof.

Which have the higher Shear Rating - HT or Normal Bolts, as it would seem that the High Tensile in this case is the lesser of the two forces.

Nice info there Ernst....
A M10 8.8 Minimum Breaking Load in Single Shear – 13kN and 20kn on the shank (KN to the power 12)

BOLT Property clases
Property classes 3.6 4.6 4.8 5.6 5.8 6.8 8.8 9.8 10.9 12.9
The property classes are identified using two numbers.
The first number is 1/100 of the minimum tensile strength in N/mm2.
The second number is 1/10 of the ratio of the lower yield point (or 0.2 proof stress) to the tensile strength.

[Cleaner]

Mild steel bolts are not sufficient for attaching recovery points.. ever... If the bolts are torqued properly after each kinetic recovery, there is very little chance that they will snap rather than bend. If any bolt holding a recovery point bends the bolt was not tightened enough. Even mild steel bolts wont bend, but will sheer off.

All this stuff about load-rating of recovery points IS very relevant, but I would much rather use these, than not have any recovery points at all. First prize would be rated points, but not all vehicles can accommodate them without extensive "plastic" surgery..

Make them RED Jonno...

I also like the idea of making them RED!

In the example above that I posted, it seems like HT is good in a "stretch" the bolt situation, like when attaching a tow hitch to a tow bar, where you will have the bolts straight in line with the pulling force.

But in the recovery hooks application, the force will be diagonally across the diameter of the bolt. I have not been able to find the information on the internet yet, but which have a higher Shear Rating, HT or Mild Steel bolts? I honestly don't know.

Good discussion on the topic, very informative!

Good looking Recovery Points Johno! And yes it is such a shame that it is so expensive to get them rated!

[ChrisF]

some interesting questions ! :)

when looking at shear forces it also IMPORTANT to know if you are looking at a "full thread" bolt or one with thread at the end only - and then it is IMPORTANT to know that the shear should be on the "full shaft" part ....


what does the chassis look like - with specific reference to how will it deal with a shear force ??



and then - MOST importantly - what type of recovery are we talking about ??

full brute force stuck in mud kinetic rope type recovery ?? They I sure as heck want a better solution than suggested here ... something along the lines of spreading the force to BOTH chassis rails, and even better a decent Burnco type bumper that even spreads the loads, attach to multiple points, etc etc ...



as for the comment on "lethal projectile" - number of ways to deal with this, all dealt with on a basic 4x4 recovery course.



and YES, a LOT to be said about "sacrificial parts", ie that which breaks BEFORE expensive damage to the vehicle ....


bit of a big topic to deal with in a single thread ...

[Haboob]

Is there a difference between the front and back recovery points?

[MOFASA]

Mild steel bolts are not sufficient for attaching recovery points.. ever... If the bolts are torqued properly after each kinetic recovery, there is very little chance that they will snap rather than bend. If any bolt holding a recovery point bends the bolt was not tightened enough. Even mild steel bolts wont bend, but will sheer off.

All this stuff about load-rating of recovery points IS very relevant, but I would much rather use these, than not have any recovery points at all. First prize would be rated points, but not all vehicles can accommodate them without extensive "plastic" surgery..
Make them RED Jonno...

RED

I also say reg...but maybe painted and not powder coated.

REG is that between red and green....
RED

I was just expressing my opinion on HT bolts and was curious to know what other people thought.

Reasons behind my questions were because I am planning my own recovery hooks and was curious. I really like your design.

Go for 8.8 rated bolts and you should be safe......
Thanks.....

[MOFASA]

Is there a difference between the front and back recovery points?

Yes there is a bid difference, it all depends on what you have fitted at the back.....

FOR ERNST......
Have a look here
https://www.google.co.za/#q=m12+grade+8 ... r+capacity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[MOFASA]

some interesting questions ! :)

when looking at shear forces it also IMPORTANT to know if you are looking at a "full thread" bolt or one with thread at the end only - and then it is IMPORTANT to know that the shear should be on the "full shaft" part ....


what does the chassis look like - with specific reference to how will it deal with a shear force ??



and then - MOST importantly - what type of recovery are we talking about ??

full brute force stuck in mud kinetic rope type recovery ??They I sure as heck want a better solution than suggested here ... something along the lines of spreading the force to BOTH chassis rails, and even better a decent Burnco type bumper that even spreads the loads, attach to multiple points, etc etc ...



as for the comment on "lethal projectile" - number of ways to deal with this, all dealt with on a basic 4x4 recovery course.



and YES, a LOT to be said about "sacrificial parts", ie that which breaks BEFORE expensive damage to the vehicle ....


bit of a big topic to deal with in a single thread ...

I tested mine in a situation with my van up to its axles in deep soft thick sand and they held up fine.......
I have done a test with it in mud but it was just very slippery mud up to the rims on my 33's and they held up......

[JEEPIE]

johno
like the design , something different

you stated you will be using mild steel to manufacture the points from
would corden not be a better option ?

also on the shackle hole , increase the diameter , and weld in a bush to make the face wider.

on shearing and tensile load as cleaner has shown ,
the shearing load will be less if - two holes are used (like on your design and not slotted)
the mounting holes have minimum play for movement
so the force is spread over 2 holes and not only 1

on bolt choice ,
i would use HT bolts with washers and nylock nuts
if you are not using nylock nuts , then a spring washer would have to be used
so you have bolt head and fender washer on 1 side , and fender washer and nylock nut on the otherside.
these will have to be installed correctly and torqued.
then are you using a hex set or a bolt ? (fully threaded only partially threaded)

also , i would have them tested by the correct authority
this gives you
1. peace of mind on your design
2. rated recovery rating
3. if in the event of something going wrong , you have the backing and paperwork to comply with supplying a RATED and TESTED recovery point

hope this helps
just my useless 2c with

[MOFASA]

johno
like the design , something different Thanks

you stated you will be using mild steel to manufacture the points from
would corden not be a better option ? corden or CORTEN?

also on the shackle hole , increase the diameter , and weld in a bush to make the face wider. That is a possibility but then it would not be possible to use with a winch hook, I like to use it to store the winch hook too.

on shearing and tensile load as cleaner has shown ,
the shearing load will be less if - two holes are used (like on your design and not slotted) The slot WILL NOT be there, that pic was of one that we did for another vehicle to see if it fits. it will be changed as soon as I know the mounting holes are all the same on the SAF models.
the mounting holes have minimum play for movement
so the force is spread over 2 holes and not only 1

on bolt choice ,
i would use HT bolts with washers and nylock nuts
if you are not using nylock nuts , then a spring washer would have to be used
so you have bolt head and fender washer on 1 side , and fender washer and nylock nut on the otherside.
these will have to be installed correctly and torqued.
then are you using a hex set or a bolt ? (fully threaded only partially threaded)If possible a hex set will be used so it has a shank to take up the strain.

also , i would have them tested by the correct authority
this gives you
1. peace of mind on your design
2. rated recovery rating
3. if in the event of something going wrong , you have the backing and paperwork to comply with supplying a RATED and TESTED recovery point

hope this helps
just my useless 2c with

I agree and I do want it tested and they will all be tested by SABS as soon as I can afford the tests....

[MOFASA]

Pic to give you a perspective on things.......

@Jeepie....
Jeep Wrangler Sahara recovery points to follow soon.....

[Cleaner]

After various discussions, research on the internet and comments on this post, I will concede to HT bolts. Still not convinced, but that is the best option in everyone's opinion.

Another question, where it fill be fitted to the chassis, is the chassis there a tube or a single flat piece of metal?

Of it is a tube, have you any plans to not squeeze the tube closed when torquing the bolts? Should it be a concern?

[MOFASA]

After various discussions, research on the internet and comments on this post, I will concede to HT bolts. Still not convinced, but that is the best option in everyone's opinion.

Another question, where it fill be fitted to the chassis, is the chassis there a tube or a single flat piece of metal?

Of it is a tube, have you any plans to not squeeze the tube closed when torquing the bolts? Should it be a concern?

This one for the SFA fits into 2 existing tapped holes in the tubular chassis.

If design on future vehicles needs to go through existing holes in the chassis I will make sure the design incorporates support for that vehicle....

[CasKru]

After various discussions, research on the internet and comments on this post, I will concede to HT bolts. Still not convinced, but that is the best option in everyone's opinion.

Another question, where it fill be fitted to the chassis, is the chassis there a tube or a single flat piece of metal?

Of it is a tube, have you any plans to not squeeze the tube closed when torquing the bolts? Should it be a concern?

This one for the SFA fits into 2 existing tapped holes in the tubular chassis.

If design on future vehicles needs to go through existing holes in the chassis I will make sure the design incorporates support for that vehicle....

Think it's actually bolts welded on the inside of the chassis and not a tapped hole

[Cleaner]

Cool! Someone I was punting your recovery points to was asking the question!

[Jaans]

I would recommend using Grade 8.8 bolts. The 4.6 is to soft and the 10.9 and higher and they are plate you must be carful some plating weakens the bolt. The 8.8 has a higher tension and shear load than the 4.6.

Johno I know I am getting very technical but you must remember mild steel is not rated. I see you used 400MPa in your calculation. For 300WA Structural steel the yield strength is 300MPa and the tensile strength 450MPa. 300WA is what they call structural steel and is therefore rated. I am not saying you cannot use mild steel I am just saying because it is unrated you must have a big margin of safety. You must also remember to use the yield strength not the tensile. Yield is where the steel starts to deform and tensile is where it fails.
This is just my 2cents

[MOFASA]

After various discussions, research on the internet and comments on this post, I will concede to HT bolts. Still not convinced, but that is the best option in everyone's opinion.

Another question, where it fill be fitted to the chassis, is the chassis there a tube or a single flat piece of metal?

Of it is a tube, have you any plans to not squeeze the tube closed when torquing the bolts? Should it be a concern?

This one for the SFA fits into 2 existing tapped holes in the tubular chassis.

If design on future vehicles needs to go through existing holes in the chassis I will make sure the design incorporates support for that vehicle....

Think it's actually bolts welded on the inside of the chassis and not a tapped hole

Nope there are 4 holes.... I'll show you next time

Cool! Someone I was punting your recovery points to was asking the question!

[MOFASA]

I would recommend using Grade 8.8 bolts. The 4.6 is to soft and the 10.9 and higher and they are plate you must be carful some plating weakens the bolt. The 8.8 has a higher tension and shear load than the 4.6.

Johno I know I am getting very technical but you must remember mild steel is not rated. I see you used 400MPa in your calculation. For 300WA Structural steel the yield strength is 300MPa and the tensile strength 450MPa. 300WA is what they call structural steel and is therefore rated. I am not saying you cannot use mild steel I am just saying because it is unrated you must have a big margin of safety. You must also remember to use the yield strength not the tensile. Yield is where the steel starts to deform and tensile is where it fails.
This is just my 2cents

Thanks for bringing that to my attention.....

Bottom line is I am sure the points will recover a Hilux, This I know cos I have done it.....

At the end of all the research and tests I will look into having them rated.....
I was also thinking of stainless steel but don't know if people would pay the price.....