To fit or not to fit a Cole Hershee Solenoid

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Dadz Toy
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Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:48 pm

Looking for a wiring diagram for a Cole Hershee solenoid when used in a 2nd Batteey installation please.

Rich :cooldude:
Last edited by Dadz Toy on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:55 pm

It's quite simple really .... it's just a big relay contactor. Run the positive through the main terminals of the relay on it's way to the battery. The two smaller terminals are for activating the relay, connect - to the body (get a good earth) and the positive you can take off the ignition circuit.

Don't forget to fit an in-line fuse with appropriate values on both positives, as well as another at the 2nd battery to protect the solenoid and cable from that side. You can also opt to run the positive from the ignition (that triggers the relay) through a toggle switch on your dash so that you can deactivate / disconnect the solenoid if you so choose. :winkx:
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Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:07 pm

On my van I installed a semi permanent solar panel on the canopy roof that keeps the 2nd battery charged all the time (through a Phocos controller from 4x4Direct). I left the old heavy cables and CH solenoid from the main battery in place but with an activation / deactivation switch on the dash (the cables still go directly to the 2nd battery - not through the controller). I also used a toggle switch with an LED indicator so that I am always aware when it's on.

This means that I can use my 2nd battery as an aide for the main battery if it for any reason runs too low to start. I've had to use it on 2 or 3 occasions and even though the cable run to the rear is long, undoubtedly having a significant voltage drop, it works.

Another advantage is that if I'm travelling at night (no solar) with the freezer running, I can open the circuit and supply a top-up to the 2nd battery if I choose to do so.
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Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:16 pm

Mud Dog wrote:On my van I installed a semi permanent solar panel on the canopy roof that keeps the 2nd battery charged all the time (through a Phocos controller from 4x4Direct). I left the old heavy cables and CH solenoid from the main battery in place but with an activation / deactivation switch on the dash (the cables still go directly to the 2nd battery - not through the controller). I also used a toggle switch with an LED indicator so that I am always aware when it's on.

This means that I can use my 2nd battery as an aide for the main battery if it for any reason runs too low to start. I've had to use it on 2 or 3 occasions and even though the cable run to the rear is long, undoubtedly having a significant voltage drop, it works.

Another advantage is that if I'm travelling at night (no solar) with the freezer running, I can open the circuit and supply a top-up to the 2nd battery if I choose to do so.

Qu: how do you ensure the circuit isn't open when you crank your motor??

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Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:10 pm

you cant ....

not impossible, but 99,99% of the installations out there switch off for that moment.

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Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:57 pm

You actually can (sorry Chris), but as I said, that would require a disabling switch as I described above. If on the other hand you have an 'intelligent' solenoid it will wait a few minutes after starting before it opens the circuit. This is intended to give the main battery a chance to recover some of the charge having been used for starting and also not to draw charge from the 2nd battery when starting.
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Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:02 pm

Another possible way to do it, (I'm personally not in favour) is to trigger the solenoid from the alternator - i.e. the circuit will only open once the motor is running.
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Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:19 pm

Mud Dog wrote:. I also used a toggle switch with an LED indicator so that I am always aware when it's on.
Does it require an On/Off switch or a "bell press" switch to activate the solenoid?


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Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:32 pm

On / off. The solenoid needs to be energised to remain open.
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Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:46 pm

Thank You Mr Brandstetter, I think I've an idea of how to tackle it now. :boss:


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Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:05 pm

I'm sure I documented it here somewhere, but can't really find it now. I did however find this related topic that could give you some pointers in the last few posts.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=24935&p=464639" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Will look for the other one .....
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Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:38 pm

Mud Dog wrote:You actually can (sorry Chris), but as I said, that would require a disabling switch as I described above. If on the other hand you have an 'intelligent' solenoid it will wait a few minutes after starting before it opens the circuit. This is intended to give the main battery a chance to recover some of the charge having been used for starting and also not to draw charge from the 2nd battery when starting.
thats why only 0,01% of these systems are wired to "stay on" when the starter is used ... just too much shlep ... :naah:

PS - you KNOW all stats are made up on the fly ... :siffler: :twisted:


you really need some hyper critical power requirements to warrant the effort .... which begs the question what happens when you switch off the ignition and finally cut the feed to the back ..... :siffler:



so yes - is "can" be done, but why go through the effort ?

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Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:23 am

After reading all of that and doing my homework on solenoids I think I'm gonna play it safe and fit NL Intelligent Solenoids in the Pradog and Dadz.

The Pradog has already wrecked its aux battery by leaving the circuit open and cranking on both batteries.

As far as Dadz goes, I could have a manual switch on the dash but the chances of leaving it on are just a bit too high.

I think I'll do the Pradog 1st then count my pennies before doing Dadz.


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Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:59 pm

When the circuit is "open" the aux batt is not connected...

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Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:56 pm

Richard you do realise that one of dc-2-dc charger will cost about the same as two of those relays. It will protect your primary battery from draining, AND it will be the best charger for your second battery. But wait, there's more, you only need the one at your battery box. Each vehicle will just have a fused cable running to the back.

this little baby will serve you WELL - http://www.4x4direct.co.za/dc-to-dc-cha ... results=24" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:07 pm

ChrisF wrote:Richard you do realise that one of dc-2-dc charger will cost about the same as two of those relays. It will protect your primary battery from draining, AND it will be the best charger for your second battery. But wait, there's more, you only need the one at your battery box. Each vehicle will just have a fused cable running to the back.

this little baby will serve you WELL - http://www.4x4direct.co.za/dc-to-dc-cha ... results=24" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yar Chris I was just looking at this earlier.

I agree, stick one of these in the batt box and can also be used for Solar hook up (I think). Unfortunately I still need to put an intelligent solenoid in the Prado to service the 2nd batt which is in the engine compartment. I'll then run a fused 16sq.mm line to the back for my batt box which acts as a 3rd batt.

So does that dc to dc charger have connections for 16sq.mm cable?? Difficult to scale from the pic.


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Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:22 pm

Okay, the 2nd battery in the engine bay makes things a bit more interesting .... :) Is this a standard battery, or a deep cycle ? A deep cycle would need that slightly higher volts that you only get from a dc-dc unit to charge fully.

A standard battery should work well in the front, just with a cole hersee solenoid.


The HCDP units have SMALL input points. Recall their specs calls for a 6mm2 wire ... For mounting on a battery box I would use 6mm2 from the HCDP to a brad harison plug, the battery box then gets connected to the vehicles thick wires at the brad harison.

The "Thick" wire in this photo was only a 6mm2 :
IMG_1275a (Small).jpg
IMG_1275a (Small).jpg (22.38 KiB) Viewed 2593 times
This from a HCDP Power Panel Mark 4

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Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:38 pm

The 2nd battery is a regular 657 cranking battery.
I dropped my solar controller today (said some very naughty words!) all the lights went out so I opened it up. It's flippen nano technology so there's nothing to see that's broken.
If this dc-dc can handle solar too I'd be stoked.
Only thing I can't work out is: does it disconnect when cranking?

Big help thanks Chris!!


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Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:03 am

The 12A HCDP unit is a dc-2-dc unit AND it has a solar input. BUT, as the price shows, this unit does not switch automatically between alternator and solar. Perfect for the guy that wants solar in the camp, but not as a permanent installation.


Why are you worried about the disconnect ? Do you want both batteries available for cranking ? None of these dc-dc units are suitable for this purpose, not even the NL solenoid units. Only the manual DC switches work for this purpose - my uncle ran his like this for many years. The downside of this is that you have no way to protect your primary battery from draining by a fridge ...


Thus the standard options today are:

1) NL solenoid - ignition off, batteries disconnected - engine on, 5 minutes later the batteries are connected

2) dc-2-dc chargers - ignition off, batteries disconnected - engine on, seconds later the batteries are connected (during cranking it would momentarily drop the connection)

NEITHER of these would work to power the starter from the second battery

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Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:32 am

Chris help my reg as ek verkeerd is. As ek my Ctek 250S dual charger deur my National Luna portable dual stelsel laat werk het ek mos beide krag van batterye vir cranking doeleindes vir n paar minute d.m.v die "charger monitor" gekoppel op National Luna portable boks.
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Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:59 am

Dawie ... ja nee ....

Die oomblik wat jy n DC-DC eenheid bysit (12A HCDP, of Ctek, ..) dan "breek" jy die verbinding tussen die batterye, en raak dit n een rigting stroombaan.


Met die NL box ALLEEN (sonder n Ctek of soortgelyk) het jy wel die "charge monitor". Maar ek weet NIE of dit kranking amps sal hanteer van die tweede battery terug na die eerste battery nie .... Hoop een van die manne wat die NL eenheid beter ken kan help.




PS - met n Ctek is dit wel moontlik om n bos-mechanic te wees ... skuif een draad op die eenheid, en dan het jy die Ctek ge-bypass en jy KAN die tweede battery gebruik in n nood-situasie. Ja, bietjie werk, maar as jy sit in die bos is dit die maklikste een van die lot om te "hot-wire". Maar dan moet jy darem die basics verstaan ....

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Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:35 am

ChrisF wrote:
Chrisf wrote:Why are you worried about the disconnect ? Do you want both batteries available for cranking ?
No the opposite, the deep cycle must be protected from cranking!

ChrisF wrote: Thus the standard options today are:

1) NL solenoid - ignition off, batteries disconnected - engine on, 5 minutes later the batteries are connected

2) dc-2-dc chargers - ignition off, batteries disconnected - engine on, seconds later the batteries are connected (during cranking it would momentarily drop the connection)

NEITHER of these would work to power the starter from the second battery
Option 2 is the target! Are you sure that it does that Chris??


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Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:21 pm

YES, 1000% yes.

I have tested the HCDP power Panel Mark 4 many times - monitoring the voltage meter to SEE how it reacts to different inputs from the alternator to PV to 220V, and how it reacts when each of these are removed. This panel switches ON (connects the two batteries) as soon as the vehicle starts - the alternator pops the volts high enough quick enough that it happens almost instantly. Once you switch the engine off your primary battery hovers at 13,4V for a few seconds and slowly settles to 12,8V. The unit only disconnects once the voltage on the primary battery has dropped below about 13V (cant remember the exact figure now). It thus takes about 20 seconds before the unit disconnects.


I have also monitored the various voltages on my Hilux with the Ctek 250 S. SAME STORY - it switches on and off based on the alternator voltage.
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Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:49 pm

Wow!
That's neat Chris!
Where are those meters mounted?


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Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:46 pm

Richard I have played with these systems over the last couple of years, and have recorded some of it here:

THIS one shows the installation of the meters in Elders - viewtopic.php?f=95&t=36698&p=484604&hil ... ng#p484604" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Some extra reading ....

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=35752&p=427080&hil ... ng#p427080" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?f=43&t=39044&hilit=power+ ... &start=120" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=38060&p=452574&hil ... ng#p452574" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=37810&p=449853&hil ... ng#p449853" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:42 pm

ChrisF wrote:Richard I have played with these systems over the last couple of years, and have recorded some of it here:

THIS one shows the installation of the meters in Elders - viewtopic.php?f=95&t=36698&p=484604&hil ... ng#p484604" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Some extra reading ....

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=35752&p=427080&hil ... ng#p427080" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?f=43&t=39044&hilit=power+ ... &start=120" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=38060&p=452574&hil ... ng#p452574" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=37810&p=449853&hil ... ng#p449853" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Richard

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Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:46 pm

Interesting reading thanks Chris!

With my mind pretty much made for a HCDP 12amp Dc to Dc charger bolted on the side of my battery box, I just read that it requires a 5sqmm IGN live to operate!

Now that's a beggar cos I already have a taped up sleeve containing my 16mm Live and Neutral, how the heck am I going to route a IGN live to the back?

Is there any way I can run the HCDP Dc to Dc without the IGN live, without compromising the functionality of the charger??


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Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:24 pm

dont fear when Chris is near ,,, :twisted:

This is the "preferred" wiring -
DCDC12A Preferred Wiring R02.jpg
DCDC12A Preferred Wiring R02.jpg (26.13 KiB) Viewed 2526 times

and THIS is how 99% of systems are wired - with only TWO wires -
DCDC12A Alternative Wiring R02.jpg
DCDC12A Alternative Wiring R02.jpg (23.86 KiB) Viewed 2526 times

Just connect your Positive and Negative wires at the back and dont worry about the "signal wire" :thumbup:

Well, just do the little jumper at the 12A unit.
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Dadz Toy
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Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:48 pm

Awesome, thanks for that Ek verstaan!



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Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:28 am

:thumbup:

4x4Direct sal jou help met die 12A unit, en al die ander goedjies vir die projek :cooldude:

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Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:15 am

My Hilux has 2 x Aux batteries. Aux1 is a 95Ah high cycle battery inside the engine bay and Aux2 is a removable 105Ah deep cycle battery in the load bin.

The "modern" alternative to the Cole Hersey solenoid is this little number.
Image
http://www.4x4direct.co.za/battery-acce ... ystem.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I installed one about 6 months ago between my main and Aux1 batteries and it works a charm. It only closes the connection once the main battery reaches 12.8 Volts, thus wont be connected while cranking.

Between Aux1 and Aux 2 (deep cycle) battery I have the HcdP 12A controller. At the moment this runs off Aux1, but can be connected (manually) to run off Main as well. We just returned from Mabuasehube where we spent 6 days off the grid with only solar and limited driving to charge the batteries and we never had any flat battery problems.
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Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:27 pm

Just on the note of cranking from aux batt...left the lighst on Monday at work, needless to say the main bat could not crank even the measly 22R motor hehe. Now with the NL setup the winch override only works when the alternator is supplying some charge: I ended up unbolting the cable on Aux batt side of the solenoid and bolting it to the other side, bridging out the 2 batteries.

Started no problem.

Tried energizing the solenoid from the + of aux batt but no go, obviously the - is not permanently connected. will have to investigate a way to manually energize.

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Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:52 pm

ThysdJ wrote:My Hilux has 2 x Aux batteries. Aux1 is a 95Ah high cycle battery inside the engine bay and Aux2 is a removable 105Ah deep cycle battery in the load bin.

The "modern" alternative to the Cole Hersey solenoid is this little number.
Image
http://www.4x4direct.co.za/battery-acce ... ystem.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I installed one about 6 months ago between my main and Aux1 batteries and it works a charm. It only closes the connection once the main battery reaches 12.8 Volts, thus wont be connected while cranking.

Between Aux1 and Aux 2 (deep cycle) battery I have the HcdP 12A controller. At the moment this runs off Aux1, but can be connected (manually) to run off Main as well. We just returned from Mabuasehube where we spent 6 days off the grid with only solar and limited driving to charge the batteries and we never had any flat battery problems.
Very neat Thys!
I saw you have a couple of solar panels ontop of your canopy, are they wired to your Hcdp controller?



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Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:58 pm

No Richard, I had those wired through a Phocos 20A controller. Those panels were only fitted for the Bull Run, where we were working on the rally stages most of the time with the vehicles not running for long periods. The only drawback with the HcdP 12A model is that it doesnt automatically switch between Solar and Alternator charging. It needs to be done manually. I forget stuff, so I inevitably I tend to forget to switch, and usually by the end of the day the batteries are flat. So I went for the fail safe route.

They usually work through the HcdP when we are camping, stationary for long periods of time. :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:31 am

ChrisF wrote:The 12A HCDP unit is a dc-2-dc unit AND it has a solar input. BUT, as the price shows, this unit does not switch automatically between alternator and solar. Perfect for the guy that wants solar in the camp, but not as a permanent installation.


Why are you worried about the disconnect ? Do you want both batteries available for cranking ? None of these dc-dc units are suitable for this purpose, not even the NL solenoid units. Only the manual DC switches work for this purpose - my uncle ran his like this for many years. The downside of this is that you have no way to protect your primary battery from draining by a fridge ...


Thus the standard options today are:

1) NL solenoid - ignition off, batteries disconnected - engine on, 5 minutes later the batteries are connected

2) dc-2-dc chargers - ignition off, batteries disconnected - engine on, seconds later the batteries are connected (during cranking it would momentarily drop the connection)

NEITHER of these would work to power the starter from the second battery
And time has come to update the post above :thumbup:

Clearly NL has taken note of the real world end user needs !! :thumbup: :thumbup:

Points 1 and 2 stand true.

BUT, a point 3 must now be added -

3) The NL BATTERY BOX has an over ride switch which CAN connect the primary and secondary battery directly. VERY handy for jump starts, winches etc ... Just remember THICK cables if you want to use it for this purpose !

Dawie has done a LOT of experimenting and has confirmed a few options with the battery box, with photos to boot. :cooldude:

Dawie has also got the Ctek working in "parallel" with the NL Battery Box ... best he post some photos and explain the setup.

BAIE DANKIE DAWIE !!!!

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Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:34 am

I'm salivating!!!

Kom nou Dawie!



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Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:14 pm

ThysdJ wrote: The only drawback with the HcdP 12A model is that it doesnt automatically switch between Solar and Alternator charging. It needs to be done manually. I forget stuff, so I inevitably I tend to forget to switch, and usually by the end of the day the batteries are flat. So I went for the fail safe route.

They usually work through the HcdP when we are camping, stationary for long periods of time. :thumbup: :thumbup:
I'd be in danger of forgetting too but a Ctec is way out of my budget.
Can you simply fit a 16amp toggle switch in the line to switch between Alty and Solar then?



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Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:05 pm

Richard what I did was really simple.I just mounted a CTEK 250S dc to dc dual charger to my Natioinal Luna portable dual charger box.The reason therefor was that as all of us know is that the N/L system does not charge the deep cycle batteries 100% full and the other reason was that I need to charge my 2nd battery via solar when necessary.

For my way of camping I prefer a portable power pack which I can use in and outside the bakkie. The Ctek is connected direct to the second battery .

I can use the same 16 mm wire with the red brad Harrison plug on both chargers.What I like of this set-up is that I have now a back up system. If something goes wrong with the ctek system I can just switch over to the N/l system.The other nice thing is with the n/l portable system is that when I plug my charger monitor into the n/l box I can crank the engine with it should the main battery be flat. Photos to follow
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Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:13 pm

Richard

Here you can see that the N/L box have a red brad Harrison plug as well as the Ctek charger. So I can plug the wire from the main battery at one of the chargers. When I need to remove the battery from the bakkie I just unplug the 50A brad Harrison plugs from ctek and the 30A brad Harrison from the solar panel.

Hope you understand my explaining. Excuse my English - I am a boertjie
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Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:17 pm

Awesome!!
Just how I've envisioned my box!!

Well the Ctec would rather be a 12a Hcdp dctodc

Thanks man!



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Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:08 am

It (the 12A Hcdp jobbie) is fitted with a small toggle switch on the pc board which switches between SP and Bat, but the input wires (main battery/solar panels) need to be switched as well. Therefore it is not a simple 3 way switch job, but rather a 2 step manual operation.

But you are a man well versed in the dark art of electrickery Richard.. you should be able to build a little magic box to make that operation a seemless one. I for one would be interested in purchasing such a little black box?? :twisted: :twisted:
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Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:41 am

GUESS .... since Manie, aka HCDP, has changed the 30A unit from manual to auto switch over, maybe, just maybe the 12A unit is due for an upgrade .... :beg: :beg:

THAT would make it theeeeee best unit on the market by farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !!



Hint hint ... now if only George could whisper in Manie's ear .... HINT HINT !!!!!!!!! George come in, George, George ....

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Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:01 am

ChrisF wrote:GUESS .... since Manie, aka HCDP, has changed the 30A unit from manual to auto switch over, maybe, just maybe the 12A unit is due for an upgrade .... :beg: :beg:

THAT would make it theeeeee best unit on the market by farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !!



Hint hint ... now if only George could whisper in Manie's ear .... HINT HINT !!!!!!!!! George come in, George, George ....
If Manie will retrofit these upgrades to my unit, he will be my newest hero... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Thys de Jager
CEO and Refreshments Manager at Team Offroad.

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Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:48 am

Did 'n camp this weekend past; the 100W solar panel worked great with the D250S, but the Ctek will not charge the trailer batt through the NL system; it switches on but the charge light does not come on.

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Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:57 pm

ChrisF wrote:GUESS .... since Manie, aka HCDP, has changed the 30A unit from manual to auto switch over, maybe, just maybe the 12A unit is due for an upgrade .... :beg: :beg:

THAT would make it theeeeee best unit on the market by farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !!



Hint hint ... now if only George could whisper in Manie's ear .... HINT HINT !!!!!!!!! George come in, George, George ....

That really would be 1st prize!!!


Rich :cooldude:
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