Hilux 4x4 Forum

Looking for a wiring diagram for a Cole Hershee solenoid when used in a 2nd Batteey installation please.

Rich

It's quite simple really .... it's just a big relay contactor. Run the positive through the main terminals of the relay on it's way to the battery. The two smaller terminals are for activating the relay, connect - to the body (get a good earth) and the positive you can take off the ignition circuit.

Don't forget to fit an in-line fuse with appropriate values on both positives, as well as another at the 2nd battery to protect the solenoid and cable from that side. You can also opt to run the positive from the ignition (that triggers the relay) through a toggle switch on your dash so that you can deactivate / disconnect the solenoid if you so choose.

On my van I installed a semi permanent solar panel on the canopy roof that keeps the 2nd battery charged all the time (through a Phocos controller from 4x4Direct). I left the old heavy cables and CH solenoid from the main battery in place but with an activation / deactivation switch on the dash (the cables still go directly to the 2nd battery - not through the controller). I also used a toggle switch with an LED indicator so that I am always aware when it's on.

This means that I can use my 2nd battery as an aide for the main battery if it for any reason runs too low to start. I've had to use it on 2 or 3 occasions and even though the cable run to the rear is long, undoubtedly having a significant voltage drop, it works.

Another advantage is that if I'm travelling at night (no solar) with the freezer running, I can open the circuit and supply a top-up to the 2nd battery if I choose to do so.

Mud Dog wrote:On my van I installed a semi permanent solar panel on the canopy roof that keeps the 2nd battery charged all the time (through a Phocos controller from 4x4Direct). I left the old heavy cables and CH solenoid from the main battery in place but with an activation / deactivation switch on the dash (the cables still go directly to the 2nd battery - not through the controller). I also used a toggle switch with an LED indicator so that I am always aware when it's on.

This means that I can use my 2nd battery as an aide for the main battery if it for any reason runs too low to start. I've had to use it on 2 or 3 occasions and even though the cable run to the rear is long, undoubtedly having a significant voltage drop, it works.

Another advantage is that if I'm travelling at night (no solar) with the freezer running, I can open the circuit and supply a top-up to the 2nd battery if I choose to do so.

Qu: how do you ensure the circuit isn't open when you crank your motor??

R

you cant ....

not impossible, but 99,99% of the installations out there switch off for that moment.

You actually can (sorry Chris), but as I said, that would require a disabling switch as I described above. If on the other hand you have an 'intelligent' solenoid it will wait a few minutes after starting before it opens the circuit. This is intended to give the main battery a chance to recover some of the charge having been used for starting and also not to draw charge from the 2nd battery when starting.

Another possible way to do it, (I'm personally not in favour) is to trigger the solenoid from the alternator - i.e. the circuit will only open once the motor is running.

Mud Dog wrote:. I also used a toggle switch with an LED indicator so that I am always aware when it's on.

Does it require an On/Off switch or a "bell press" switch to activate the solenoid?


Rich

On / off. The solenoid needs to be energised to remain open.

Thank You Mr Brandstetter, I think I've an idea of how to tackle it now.


Rich :cool dude:

I'm sure I documented it here somewhere, but can't really find it now. I did however find this related topic that could give you some pointers in the last few posts.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=24935&p=464639" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Will look for the other one .....

Mud Dog wrote:You actually can (sorry Chris), but as I said, that would require a disabling switch as I described above. If on the other hand you have an 'intelligent' solenoid it will wait a few minutes after starting before it opens the circuit. This is intended to give the main battery a chance to recover some of the charge having been used for starting and also not to draw charge from the 2nd battery when starting.

thats why only 0,01% of these systems are wired to "stay on" when the starter is used ... just too much shlep ...

PS - you KNOW all stats are made up on the fly ...


you really need some hyper critical power requirements to warrant the effort .... which begs the question what happens when you switch off the ignition and finally cut the feed to the back .....



so yes - is "can" be done, but why go through the effort ?

After reading all of that and doing my homework on solenoids I think I'm gonna play it safe and fit NL Intelligent Solenoids in the Pradog and Dadz.

The Pradog has already wrecked its aux battery by leaving the circuit open and cranking on both batteries.

As far as Dadz goes, I could have a manual switch on the dash but the chances of leaving it on are just a bit too high.

I think I'll do the Pradog 1st then count my pennies before doing Dadz.


Rich

When the circuit is "open" the aux batt is not connected...

Richard you do realise that one of dc-2-dc charger will cost about the same as two of those relays. It will protect your primary battery from draining, AND it will be the best charger for your second battery. But wait, there's more, you only need the one at your battery box. Each vehicle will just have a fused cable running to the back.

this little baby will serve you WELL - http://www.4x4direct.co.za/dc-to-dc-cha ... results=24" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ChrisF wrote:Richard you do realise that one of dc-2-dc charger will cost about the same as two of those relays. It will protect your primary battery from draining, AND it will be the best charger for your second battery. But wait, there's more, you only need the one at your battery box. Each vehicle will just have a fused cable running to the back.

this little baby will serve you WELL - http://www.4x4direct.co.za/dc-to-dc-cha ... results=24" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yar Chris I was just looking at this earlier.

I agree, stick one of these in the batt box and can also be used for Solar hook up (I think). Unfortunately I still need to put an intelligent solenoid in the Prado to service the 2nd batt which is in the engine compartment. I'll then run a fused 16sq.mm line to the back for my batt box which acts as a 3rd batt.

So does that dc to dc charger have connections for 16sq.mm cable?? Difficult to scale from the pic.


Rich

Okay, the 2nd battery in the engine bay makes things a bit more interesting .... :) Is this a standard battery, or a deep cycle ? A deep cycle would need that slightly higher volts that you only get from a dc-dc unit to charge fully.

A standard battery should work well in the front, just with a cole hersee solenoid.


The HCDP units have SMALL input points. Recall their specs calls for a 6mm2 wire ... For mounting on a battery box I would use 6mm2 from the HCDP to a brad harison plug, the battery box then gets connected to the vehicles thick wires at the brad harison.

The "Thick" wire in this photo was only a 6mm2 : This from a HCDP Power Panel Mark 4

The 2nd battery is a regular 657 cranking battery.
I dropped my solar controller today (said some very naughty words!) all the lights went out so I opened it up. It's flippen nano technology so there's nothing to see that's broken.
If this dc-dc can handle solar too I'd be stoked.
Only thing I can't work out is: does it disconnect when cranking?

Big help thanks Chris!!


Rich

The 12A HCDP unit is a dc-2-dc unit AND it has a solar input. BUT, as the price shows, this unit does not switch automatically between alternator and solar. Perfect for the guy that wants solar in the camp, but not as a permanent installation.


Why are you worried about the disconnect ? Do you want both batteries available for cranking ? None of these dc-dc units are suitable for this purpose, not even the NL solenoid units. Only the manual DC switches work for this purpose - my uncle ran his like this for many years. The downside of this is that you have no way to protect your primary battery from draining by a fridge ...


Thus the standard options today are:

1) NL solenoid - ignition off, batteries disconnected - engine on, 5 minutes later the batteries are connected

2) dc-2-dc chargers - ignition off, batteries disconnected - engine on, seconds later the batteries are connected (during cranking it would momentarily drop the connection)

NEITHER of these would work to power the starter from the second battery

Chris help my reg as ek verkeerd is. As ek my Ctek 250S dual charger deur my National Luna portable dual stelsel laat werk het ek mos beide krag van batterye vir cranking doeleindes vir n paar minute d.m.v die "charger monitor" gekoppel op National Luna portable boks.

Dawie ... ja nee ....

Die oomblik wat jy n DC-DC eenheid bysit (12A HCDP, of Ctek, ..) dan "breek" jy die verbinding tussen die batterye, en raak dit n een rigting stroombaan.


Met die NL box ALLEEN (sonder n Ctek of soortgelyk) het jy wel die "charge monitor". Maar ek weet NIE of dit kranking amps sal hanteer van die tweede battery terug na die eerste battery nie .... Hoop een van die manne wat die NL eenheid beter ken kan help.




PS - met n Ctek is dit wel moontlik om n bos-mechanic te wees ... skuif een draad op die eenheid, en dan het jy die Ctek ge-bypass en jy KAN die tweede battery gebruik in n nood-situasie. Ja, bietjie werk, maar as jy sit in die bos is dit die maklikste een van die lot om te "hot-wire". Maar dan moet jy darem die basics verstaan ....

ChrisF wrote:

Chrisf wrote:Why are you worried about the disconnect ? Do you want both batteries available for cranking ?

No the opposite, the deep cycle must be protected from cranking!

ChrisF wrote: Thus the standard options today are:

1) NL solenoid - ignition off, batteries disconnected - engine on, 5 minutes later the batteries are connected

2) dc-2-dc chargers - ignition off, batteries disconnected - engine on, seconds later the batteries are connected (during cranking it would momentarily drop the connection)

NEITHER of these would work to power the starter from the second battery

Option 2 is the target! Are you sure that it does that Chris??


Rich

YES, 1000% yes.

I have tested the HCDP power Panel Mark 4 many times - monitoring the voltage meter to SEE how it reacts to different inputs from the alternator to PV to 220V, and how it reacts when each of these are removed. This panel switches ON (connects the two batteries) as soon as the vehicle starts - the alternator pops the volts high enough quick enough that it happens almost instantly. Once you switch the engine off your primary battery hovers at 13,4V for a few seconds and slowly settles to 12,8V. The unit only disconnects once the voltage on the primary battery has dropped below about 13V (cant remember the exact figure now). It thus takes about 20 seconds before the unit disconnects.


I have also monitored the various voltages on my Hilux with the Ctek 250 S. SAME STORY - it switches on and off based on the alternator voltage.

Wow!
That's neat Chris!
Where are those meters mounted?


Rich

Richard I have played with these systems over the last couple of years, and have recorded some of it here:

THIS one shows the installation of the meters in Elders - viewtopic.php?f=95&t=36698&p=484604&hil ... ng#p484604" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Some extra reading ....

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=35752&p=427080&hil ... ng#p427080" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?f=43&t=39044&hilit=power+ ... &start=120" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=38060&p=452574&hil ... ng#p452574" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=37810&p=449853&hil ... ng#p449853" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ChrisF wrote:Richard I have played with these systems over the last couple of years, and have recorded some of it here:

THIS one shows the installation of the meters in Elders - viewtopic.php?f=95&t=36698&p=484604&hil ... ng#p484604" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Some extra reading ....

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=35752&p=427080&hil ... ng#p427080" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?f=43&t=39044&hilit=power+ ... &start=120" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=38060&p=452574&hil ... ng#p452574" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=37810&p=449853&hil ... ng#p449853" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Richard

Now you are going toe reaaaad

Interesting reading thanks Chris!

With my mind pretty much made for a HCDP 12amp Dc to Dc charger bolted on the side of my battery box, I just read that it requires a 5sqmm IGN live to operate!

Now that's a beggar cos I already have a taped up sleeve containing my 16mm Live and Neutral, how the heck am I going to route a IGN live to the back?

Is there any way I can run the HCDP Dc to Dc without the IGN live, without compromising the functionality of the charger??


Rich

dont fear when Chris is near ,,,

This is the "preferred" wiring -

and THIS is how 99% of systems are wired - with only TWO wires -

Just connect your Positive and Negative wires at the back and dont worry about the "signal wire"

Well, just do the little jumper at the 12A unit.

Awesome, thanks for that Ek verstaan!



Rich

4x4Direct sal jou help met die 12A unit, en al die ander goedjies vir die projek

My Hilux has 2 x Aux batteries. Aux1 is a 95Ah high cycle battery inside the engine bay and Aux2 is a removable 105Ah deep cycle battery in the load bin.

The "modern" alternative to the Cole Hersey solenoid is this little number.

http://www.4x4direct.co.za/battery-acce ... ystem.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I installed one about 6 months ago between my main and Aux1 batteries and it works a charm. It only closes the connection once the main battery reaches 12.8 Volts, thus wont be connected while cranking.

Between Aux1 and Aux 2 (deep cycle) battery I have the HcdP 12A controller. At the moment this runs off Aux1, but can be connected (manually) to run off Main as well. We just returned from Mabuasehube where we spent 6 days off the grid with only solar and limited driving to charge the batteries and we never had any flat battery problems.

Just on the note of cranking from aux batt...left the lighst on Monday at work, needless to say the main bat could not crank even the measly 22R motor hehe. Now with the NL setup the winch override only works when the alternator is supplying some charge: I ended up unbolting the cable on Aux batt side of the solenoid and bolting it to the other side, bridging out the 2 batteries.

Started no problem.

Tried energizing the solenoid from the + of aux batt but no go, obviously the - is not permanently connected. will have to investigate a way to manually energize.

ThysdJ wrote:My Hilux has 2 x Aux batteries. Aux1 is a 95Ah high cycle battery inside the engine bay and Aux2 is a removable 105Ah deep cycle battery in the load bin.

The "modern" alternative to the Cole Hersey solenoid is this little number.

http://www.4x4direct.co.za/battery-acce ... ystem.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I installed one about 6 months ago between my main and Aux1 batteries and it works a charm. It only closes the connection once the main battery reaches 12.8 Volts, thus wont be connected while cranking.

Between Aux1 and Aux 2 (deep cycle) battery I have the HcdP 12A controller. At the moment this runs off Aux1, but can be connected (manually) to run off Main as well. We just returned from Mabuasehube where we spent 6 days off the grid with only solar and limited driving to charge the batteries and we never had any flat battery problems.

Very neat Thys!
I saw you have a couple of solar panels ontop of your canopy, are they wired to your Hcdp controller?



Rich

No Richard, I had those wired through a Phocos 20A controller. Those panels were only fitted for the Bull Run, where we were working on the rally stages most of the time with the vehicles not running for long periods. The only drawback with the HcdP 12A model is that it doesnt automatically switch between Solar and Alternator charging. It needs to be done manually. I forget stuff, so I inevitably I tend to forget to switch, and usually by the end of the day the batteries are flat. So I went for the fail safe route.

They usually work through the HcdP when we are camping, stationary for long periods of time.

ChrisF wrote:The 12A HCDP unit is a dc-2-dc unit AND it has a solar input. BUT, as the price shows, this unit does not switch automatically between alternator and solar. Perfect for the guy that wants solar in the camp, but not as a permanent installation.


Why are you worried about the disconnect ? Do you want both batteries available for cranking ? None of these dc-dc units are suitable for this purpose, not even the NL solenoid units. Only the manual DC switches work for this purpose - my uncle ran his like this for many years. The downside of this is that you have no way to protect your primary battery from draining by a fridge ...


Thus the standard options today are:

1) NL solenoid - ignition off, batteries disconnected - engine on, 5 minutes later the batteries are connected

2) dc-2-dc chargers - ignition off, batteries disconnected - engine on, seconds later the batteries are connected (during cranking it would momentarily drop the connection)

NEITHER of these would work to power the starter from the second battery

And time has come to update the post above

Clearly NL has taken note of the real world end user needs !!

Points 1 and 2 stand true.

BUT, a point 3 must now be added -

3) The NL BATTERY BOX has an over ride switch which CAN connect the primary and secondary battery directly. VERY handy for jump starts, winches etc ... Just remember THICK cables if you want to use it for this purpose !

Dawie has done a LOT of experimenting and has confirmed a few options with the battery box, with photos to boot.

Dawie has also got the Ctek working in "parallel" with the NL Battery Box ... best he post some photos and explain the setup.

BAIE DANKIE DAWIE !!!!

I'm salivating!!!

Kom nou Dawie!



Rich

ThysdJ wrote: The only drawback with the HcdP 12A model is that it doesnt automatically switch between Solar and Alternator charging. It needs to be done manually. I forget stuff, so I inevitably I tend to forget to switch, and usually by the end of the day the batteries are flat. So I went for the fail safe route.

They usually work through the HcdP when we are camping, stationary for long periods of time.

I'd be in danger of forgetting too but a Ctec is way out of my budget.
Can you simply fit a 16amp toggle switch in the line to switch between Alty and Solar then?



Rich

Richard what I did was really simple.I just mounted a CTEK 250S dc to dc dual charger to my Natioinal Luna portable dual charger box.The reason therefor was that as all of us know is that the N/L system does not charge the deep cycle batteries 100% full and the other reason was that I need to charge my 2nd battery via solar when necessary.

For my way of camping I prefer a portable power pack which I can use in and outside the bakkie. The Ctek is connected direct to the second battery .

I can use the same 16 mm wire with the red brad Harrison plug on both chargers.What I like of this set-up is that I have now a back up system. If something goes wrong with the ctek system I can just switch over to the N/l system.The other nice thing is with the n/l portable system is that when I plug my charger monitor into the n/l box I can crank the engine with it should the main battery be flat. Photos to follow

Richard

Here you can see that the N/L box have a red brad Harrison plug as well as the Ctek charger. So I can plug the wire from the main battery at one of the chargers. When I need to remove the battery from the bakkie I just unplug the 50A brad Harrison plugs from ctek and the 30A brad Harrison from the solar panel.

Hope you understand my explaining. Excuse my English - I am a boertjie

Awesome!!
Just how I've envisioned my box!!

Well the Ctec would rather be a 12a Hcdp dctodc

Thanks man!



Rich

It (the 12A Hcdp jobbie) is fitted with a small toggle switch on the pc board which switches between SP and Bat, but the input wires (main battery/solar panels) need to be switched as well. Therefore it is not a simple 3 way switch job, but rather a 2 step manual operation.

But you are a man well versed in the dark art of electrickery Richard.. you should be able to build a little magic box to make that operation a seemless one. I for one would be interested in purchasing such a little black box??

GUESS .... since Manie, aka HCDP, has changed the 30A unit from manual to auto switch over, maybe, just maybe the 12A unit is due for an upgrade ....

THAT would make it theeeeee best unit on the market by farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !!



Hint hint ... now if only George could whisper in Manie's ear .... HINT HINT !!!!!!!!! George come in, George, George ....

ChrisF wrote:GUESS .... since Manie, aka HCDP, has changed the 30A unit from manual to auto switch over, maybe, just maybe the 12A unit is due for an upgrade ....

THAT would make it theeeeee best unit on the market by farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !!



Hint hint ... now if only George could whisper in Manie's ear .... HINT HINT !!!!!!!!! George come in, George, George ....

If Manie will retrofit these upgrades to my unit, he will be my newest hero...

Did 'n camp this weekend past; the 100W solar panel worked great with the D250S, but the Ctek will not charge the trailer batt through the NL system; it switches on but the charge light does not come on.

ChrisF wrote:GUESS .... since Manie, aka HCDP, has changed the 30A unit from manual to auto switch over, maybe, just maybe the 12A unit is due for an upgrade ....

THAT would make it theeeeee best unit on the market by farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !!



Hint hint ... now if only George could whisper in Manie's ear .... HINT HINT !!!!!!!!! George come in, George, George ....

That really would be 1st prize!!!


Rich