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Kinetic Recovery Failure

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Kinetic Recovery Failure

Postby ThysdJ » Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:08 am

I renamed this thread, as it is more descriptive of what we are trying to achieve...

Much has been said about this in the past, but for the first time we went out and tried to simulate this....

We all heard the advice when we bought our first 4x4.. "Get a snatch strap"... right? But nobody tells you this is an extremely dangerous piece of kit... And recovery points?? Pffft.. Toyota supplies them!!

Watch this video and see why it is necessary to fit proper recovery point with the proper rated high tensile steel hardware.. and to get all bystanders out of the way...

The speed at which that strap travels is blistering, and the weight of the shackle in the end will cause some serious harm. I tried to slow it down, but the FPS on the Gopro wasnt set right.. Next weekend we'll do better shots at better angles as well..

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXYep-onvwo[/video]
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby Aquanaut » Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:57 am

That is like fishing with a 100 pound line with a 2 pound tippet. Surely you would tie the shackle directly to the chassis or if you have a recovery strap, to both chassis points. Not to a piece of thin strapping??
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby ThysdJ » Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:08 am

Surely you also wont try to recover a tree? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: The thin strap was there to "charge" the system with some kinetic energy so that we could demonstrate the fly-away of the kinetic strap when thin strap breaks...
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby Huismoeles » Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:11 am

Dis waar Basil

Maar ek dink wat oom Thys wil wys is as jou recovery point breek op jou snatch strap breek wat se skade dit kan doen.
As jy nie ordentlike recovery punte op het nie
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby Huismoeles » Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:13 am

Sien oom het my voorgespring
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby CasKru » Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:36 pm

Lekker toets daai. Die nadeel met die dat julle die "failure" bewerkstellig het met die nylon "strappy" is dat jy nie regtig die volle carnage kan sien nie wat daai strap gaan veroorsaak onder standaard omstandighede nie. Maar... die voordeel is jy gaan nie jou voertuig beskadig net om vir ons die verskil te wys nie.

Thanks vir julle moeite en dit sal awesome wees om daai teen 'n hoër framerate te kan sien. PS: los die musiek uit die video uit... dat mens die klanke mooi kan hoor
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby ThysdJ » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:02 pm

Cassie, as daai ding so vlieg met net 'n strappie wat hom "gelaai" het.. wil ek hom nie sien as die ding regtigwaar breek nie... Ek het die musiek ingesit want ons het baie tjol gepraat... Jy weet mos.. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby CasKru » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:04 pm

ThysdJ wrote:Cassie, as daai ding so vlieg met net 'n strappie wat hom "gelaai" het.. wil ek hom nie sien as die ding regtigwaar breek nie... Ek het die musiek ingesit want ons het baie tjol gepraat... Jy weet mos.. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

ek wiet mos :twisted: :thumbup:
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby ThysdJ » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:07 pm

Ook ons was nog nie lekker wakker nie... Gerrie loop nog in sy slaapklere rond... :silent: :silent: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby CasKru » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:11 pm

Sien daai deng... Aangesien julle dit nou weer wil doen die naweek... hoekom nie so paar lee bokse of so langs die tou stapel sodat mens meer die effek kan sien nie (jy sien wat gebeur as mens met 'n goeie gedagte vorendag kom)
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby ThysdJ » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:14 pm

Dit is 'n gedagte.... en sommer so 3 Gopro kameras op verskillende plekke ook... en dan wil ek ook die effek van 'n lanyard toets... net dat ons weet ons praat nie nonsens nie..

Lyk my ons gaan redelik baie strappies breek!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby CasKru » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:18 pm

ThysdJ wrote:Dit is 'n gedagte.... en sommer so 3 Gopro kameras op verskillende plekke ook... en dan wil ek ook die effek van 'n lanyard toets... net dat ons weet ons praat nie nonsens nie..

Lyk my ons gaan redelik baie strappies breek!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Ek like wat ek hier hoor... :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby ThysdJ » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:23 pm

CasKru wrote:
ThysdJ wrote:Dit is 'n gedagte.... en sommer so 3 Gopro kameras op verskillende plekke ook... en dan wil ek ook die effek van 'n lanyard toets... net dat ons weet ons praat nie nonsens nie..

Lyk my ons gaan redelik baie strappies breek!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Ek like wat ek hier hoor... :thumbup: :thumbup:
Kom ons hoop jy like wat jy sien as ons dit gedoen het.. :lol: :lol: :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby legend35 » Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:05 pm

Thanks vir die video Thys.Dit laat mens twee keur dink.Ek sien die stof wolk by die boom wat se hy het iets getref.Wys ons naderby laat ons kan sien wat die skade kan wees as hy jou of jou voertuig tref.Maar nogmals dankie,julle het baie guts om dit te doen en dit gaan baie se oe oopmaak. :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby Mud Dog » Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:21 pm

CasKru wrote:Sien daai deng... Aangesien julle dit nou weer wil doen die naweek... hoekom nie so paar lee bokse of so langs die tou stapel sodat mens meer die effek kan sien nie (jy sien wat gebeur as mens met 'n goeie gedagte vorendag kom)

Maak miskien 'n spaar recovery hook of shackle aan die einde van die tou vas, dan sal ons baie beter kan sien watse skade so 'n ding kan berokken! :D:

Lekker video. ;-) :thumbup:
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby Mud Dog » Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:26 pm

Better still , fasten a tow-ball to the end of the snatch rope ..... you might have to erect red 'shooting-range' flags down at the tree when using a 'kettie' like that one!! :lol:
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby ChrisF » Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:33 pm

ThysdJ wrote:Surely you also wont try to recover a tree? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: The thin strap was there to "charge" the system with some kinetic energy so that we could demonstrate the fly-away of the kinetic strap when thin strap breaks...


now think about the fact that a classic "tow ball recovery" will charge that kinetic strap a LOT more before it lets go !!!!!



I just dont think people understand HOW MUCH energy gets "charged" into a kinetic strap ...
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby CasKru » Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:22 am

Mud Dog wrote:
CasKru wrote:Sien daai deng... Aangesien julle dit nou weer wil doen die naweek... hoekom nie so paar lee bokse of so langs die tou stapel sodat mens meer die effek kan sien nie (jy sien wat gebeur as mens met 'n goeie gedagte vorendag kom)

Maak miskien 'n spaar recovery hook of shackle aan die einde van die tou vas, dan sal ons baie beter kan sien watse skade so 'n ding kan berokken! :D:

Lekker video. ;-) :thumbup:

They did have a shackle at the end of the line on this test done... check at the end of the video where the show the nylon strap that failed... it was tied to the shackle :thumbup:
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby Hangover » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:23 am

ChrisF wrote:
ThysdJ wrote:Surely you also wont try to recover a tree? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: The thin strap was there to "charge" the system with some kinetic energy so that we could demonstrate the fly-away of the kinetic strap when thin strap breaks...


now think about the fact that a classic "tow ball recovery" will charge that kinetic strap a LOT more before it lets go !!!!!



I just dont think people understand HOW MUCH energy gets "charged" into a kinetic strap ...


En dan het jy nog daai towball wat saam ook vlieg vir daai bietjie ekstra gewig...
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby ThysdJ » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:47 am

You guys are getting way ahead of yourselves here... the more weight we load on the end, the thicker the strappie will have to be to give a "representative" effect, AND the more dangerous the whole exercise becomes.. As it is this is not one of the safest things to do and should not be attempted sommer net without careful planning.

The strap and shackle alone might not have the same "stopping power" as a strap loaded with a tow-ball, but the pace at which it recoils is already blistering... and should be an eye opener to everybody who thinks of using a snatch strap on dicey recovery points..
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby dalkill » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:07 pm

is this not why you put sand bag type with on the snatch strap... even if you take precautions, no Millicent Bystander in sight... if recovery point fails drivers still in danger ??
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby ThysdJ » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:52 pm

Yes Dalkill, damping it with something like a sandbag or even another strap will help slow it down... :thumbup: :thumbup: But how many people do that?
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby MOFASA » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:15 pm

I would like to see a test done with the damper blanket or similar... I think it would show WHY it is very important to use safety measures....

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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby ThysdJ » Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:10 pm

MOFASA wrote:I would like to see a test done with the damper blanket or similar... I think it would show WHY it is very important to use safety measures....

GR8 test
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We will do more of these Jonno...
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby Aquanaut » Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:48 pm

ThysdJ wrote:Surely you also wont try to recover a tree? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: The thin strap was there to "charge" the system with some kinetic energy so that we could demonstrate the fly-away of the kinetic strap when thin strap breaks...


:thumbup:
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby JohanM » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:18 pm

Thys nou gaan ek n groot blik wurms weer oop maak hierso....

Daai is met n shackle wat so recoil en sports maak. Ek weet dit is al baie bespreek en daar is nie eintlik eensgesindheid wat ek kan kry onder die wat baie daarmee werk nie dus maak ek weer die blik wurms oop.

Die recovery hook wat mens kry wat 10000lbs of 4500 kg kan hanteer, sal dit gereken word as n veilige punt indien dit reg vasgesit is met die nodige HT boute op die chassis direk??? Ek dink net dat as die breek of n shackle fail dan is ablei a projektiel wat baie skade kan aanrig.

Verstaan n shackle breek nie so maklik nie, maar dan moet ek ook se dat ek het nog nie self al beleef dat n recovery punt net breek nie. Seker maar omdat ek dan gewoonlik so deeglik moontlik voorberei voordat ek iemand sal uit snatch of so recvoery uit voer. Ek is maar versigtig om hard te pluk as iemand sit. Ek sal veel eerder 3/4 keer met n meer gentle approach as een maal hard pluk en die punt fail en maak sports.

So as mens nou dit ( recovery hooks) sou gebruik met n damper blanket op en safety lanyards op al die punte met n recovery bridle oor twee punte, is dit steed nie genoeg nie om as veilig gesien te word nie.

Volgens my is enige recovery nie as n "veilig" nie omdat daar baie goed is wat kan skeef loop so dit is hoekom mens altyd die meeste voorsorg moet tref met n recovery, maar ek wil net hoor by jou van die hakke en dan ook wat mens kan doen in so situasie om dit veilig te maak sou jy geen ander opsie he as om so te moet help nie.
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby CasKru » Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:19 am

Johan, Jy is reg. 'n Recovery is nooit veilig nie maar mens moet strewe daarna om dit so veilig moontlik te maak vir almal daar.
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby ThysdJ » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:44 am

CasKru wrote:Johan, Jy is reg. 'n Recovery is nooit veilig nie maar mens moet strewe daarna om dit so veilig moontlik te maak vir almal daar.
Stem saam met Cassie, Johan. Ek en jy en Cassie is veilig, en ons doen ons bes om die dinge reg te doen tot die beste van ons vermoee... maar daar is mense daar buite, en glo my ek het hulle al gesien, hulle leef, genuine... Mense wat nie 2 keer sal dink on 'n snatch strap om 'n spring hanger vas te maak of oor 'n tow-ball te gooi nie, of om shackles deur 'n stuk 3mm flatbar te sit wat met gutterbolts aan die chassis vasgebout is... Hierdie is 'n wake-up call vir daai ouens..

Jy is reg, die hake sal nie sommer breek nie, maar dit hang af van wie die roker was wat hom daar vasgebout het....

I see the need for more research in this area. We will do more stuff and record it and maybe, just maybe, we can create more awareness around this subject?

Thanks for the input guys.. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
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2010 Hilux 3.0 D4D D/C 4x4 with GOMAD "Brood" Canopy. Tripod.
1997 Jeep Wrangler TJ 4.0 Sport. The original SFA. AGA... Gooi kole
email: thys@teamoffroad.co.za

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ThysdJ
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Posts: 16605
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:31 am
Town: Brackenfell
Vehicle: 2010 Hilux D4D 3.0 D/C 4x4
Real Name: Thys
ORRA Call Sign: HC102
Location: Brackenfell
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Re: Recovery Point Failure

Postby ThysdJ » Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:27 pm

Ons het 'n paar baie interresante goed agtergekom die naweek.... Will edit the videos and show you.. :thumbup: :thumbup:

All I can say is that a damping blanket and a strap coiled over a kinetic strap to stop it from recoiling? Doesnt make it safe guys... It still shoots back.. and is still extremely dangerous.. Dont get too complacent..
Image

2010 Hilux 3.0 D4D D/C 4x4 with GOMAD "Brood" Canopy. Tripod.
1997 Jeep Wrangler TJ 4.0 Sport. The original SFA. AGA... Gooi kole
email: thys@teamoffroad.co.za

Like Team Offroad on Facebook...
User avatar
ThysdJ
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 16605
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:31 am
Town: Brackenfell
Vehicle: 2010 Hilux D4D 3.0 D/C 4x4
Real Name: Thys
ORRA Call Sign: HC102
Location: Brackenfell
Contact:

Re: Kinetic Recovery Failure

Postby ThysdJ » Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:48 am

Point of impact....

IMG_2969.JPG
(365.51 KiB) Downloaded 125 times
Image

2010 Hilux 3.0 D4D D/C 4x4 with GOMAD "Brood" Canopy. Tripod.
1997 Jeep Wrangler TJ 4.0 Sport. The original SFA. AGA... Gooi kole
email: thys@teamoffroad.co.za

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