Hydrogen from water

Here we discuss various alternative energy solutions. From converting your car to electricity to converting your home to be off the grid.
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pietpetoors
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Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:48 pm

This topic touched my imagination and I have been playing around with the idea for almost two years now. I built some of the machines some guys suggest, without any success. Perhaps somebody out there will know more or can help.

Apparently you get a welder that works with "Browns Gas". Now this is amazing, "Borwn's Gas" is nothing else than Hydrogen which are generated from water. Apparently you fill the Brown's gas welder with water and the AC current that flows through the water kind of split the H and the O from each other and you get H coming off as a gas.

The same principle can be used in a car where you build a device that will osilate the current creating the same effect as the AC power.

Read about Brown's Gas at
http://www.energyoptions.com/tech/browns.html
http://www.eagle-research.com/
http://welding.micronomy.com/jobs.asp?ObjectID=7918

And also see
http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/

Is it possible that the technology to save the earth from the claws of the Arabs and Yanks have been existing for years but kept quiet due to the enormous effect it will have on world economy if the the governments cannot tax normal people to death with fuel levies?
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Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:29 am

Is it possible that the technology to save the earth from the claws of the Arabs and Yanks have been existing for years but kept quiet due to the enormous effect it will have on world economy if the the governments cannot tax normal people to death with fuel levies?
Thanks for the links, I will try and read them during the day. I have always thought (without much research) that the technology and means has been around for many many years. We just need to look at what gets done in other areas of trade to see that people out there have an understanding of the sciences involved in making our world an alternative fuel one.

I reckon that the effect on the economy will be enormous but that in such an instance our goverment and every other power hungry boardroom would manufacture new laws and levies for the new alternative fuels.
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Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:11 pm

Here is another site which talks about the concept of using water as fuel.
Use this link, http://www.hilux4x4.co.za/water and tell me what your opinions are about this?
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Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:48 pm

My questions on this are:

1. How much hydrogen(litres) would be needed to power your average sedan, 2 litre?
2. To extract hydrogen for water, the process of electrolysis is used, is this efficient, i.e. how much current must be applied to start the reaction and would it generate enough brown gas to power an engine?

Just my 2 cents

Bretton

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Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:52 pm

Hi Piet.

Have you read this website http://www.waterfuel.co.za

It sounds so easy
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Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:20 pm

Hi Guys, I have installed the basic hydrogen system on my lux. I bench tested it first, and it is definitly producing the gas. I just have to run the positive wire, if the rain ever stops long enough for me to work on it.The lux stands outside. I wanted to take the wife's car out of the garage and put the lux in, but that plan got shot down very quickly. I have run the engine (4Y) and after about 30 seconds the engine was purring. The cost of making the generator was about R50, but with vacuum hoses and fittings the whole system will cost about R100.
Once I get it finished I will rob a bank to fill the tank, and start the consumption test.
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Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:24 pm

The photo in the above post was taken after the bench test. You can see the gas bubbles clinging to the electrodes.
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Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:26 pm

Sorry me again. The power to run the system was 1.5 amp
Ron.

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Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:00 am

I am keeping a very close eye on this post :wink:
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Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:03 am

I'm also very interested in this. And then the other option I'm also very interested in is die Brownsgas (HHO) conversion.... mmmm which one?!
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Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:46 am

Hi CasKru, the system I have installed produces HHO or Brown's Gas.
Ron.

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Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:52 am

I'm watching this one big time :!: :!: :!:

Can't wait for some results Ron :!: :shock:

GREAT to see some Pioneering Spirit :!: :!:

Best o' Luck Ron :!: :wink:

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Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:50 am

Ron for president :!: :!: :mrgreen: :D :mrgreen:
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Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:08 am

Hi Ron.Great stuff.
My father in law is also playing around with this.he is experimenting with a S/S mesh and he says you get a lot more gas.
He can feel a diffrence on slow speeds.(City driving)
I must say your power consumption of 1.5 amp is extremely low.He gets like anything from 5-7 amps.
look for a guy called Boys on the internet.His systems is quite good
Waht do you mix your water with?
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Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:23 pm

Some people love to see a scam in just about everything that is new.
I guess we will know shortly. The only way to know for sure is to do it yourself, test and see if it is true or not. You will never know unless you investigate it yourself.
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Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:50 pm

Pieter ek het die link gekry nadat ek die video vir jou gemail het, kyk 'n bietjie hierna http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/ ... 6430.shtml

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Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:19 pm

Irishman wrote:Hi CasKru, the system I have installed produces HHO or Brown's Gas.
Ron.
:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

I saw my mistake about 5 minutes after I posted this :roll: :roll: :roll: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:22 pm

3RZ wrote:Pieter ek het die link gekry nadat ek die video vir jou gemail het, kyk 'n bietjie hierna http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/ ... 6430.shtml
Wow :!: that is amazing, I really hope these guys get some funding to develop the technology further.
The potential is huge :!: :shock:
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Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:03 pm

It looks as if I have opened a hornets nest. I have read all the arguments for and against, and I considered it worthy to try it out. I have fitted only one cell, so far, but I have enough parts to make a second one, and put two in series. The big monster trucks in the States have 16 cells in series. The argument that you are using power from the alternator dosen't wear if there is any improvement in your mileage. If you switch on your lights, or one of those radios that would blow you out of your seat you are also using petrol via the alternator. If I think there is an improvement in consumption, I'll fill up, and ask Pieter to seal the filler cap and run a test using my GPS. My oddmeter overreads by 10 per cent.
To give the impression that you are running on water is bull.You are extracting the hydrogen from the electrolyte and mixing it with petrol in the carb to run your engine. Remember a carb is a vergasser. Your engine runs on GAS
I read the thread posted by GTO (I think he works for Sasol :wink:) but The Aardvark guy sounds like a scammer himself, he pleads for donations.
Ron.
P.S. To answer George's question it is a quarter teaspoon pure baking soda in distilled water.

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Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:12 pm

Ron... please keep us up to date. Also if it proofs to actually work, will you let us know where to source the equipment you used so when we purchase a copy of how to do it, we know where to find all the stuff?

From which site did you purchase your instruction set?
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Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:32 pm

I cant wait to see what the results are gona be :mrgreen:
Im guessing it probably wont make a huge difference to start with but if it makes any difference then it is something that can be improved till it does make a big difference 8)
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Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:30 pm

I hear what the guy on Aardvark is saying and I'm to sceptical because it does sound to be good to be true and usually that means that it is to good to be true. But it does not mean it always is to good to be true.

My logic tells me that if you add a combustible gas to another combustible gas, you need less of the original gas to get the same result. (I'll ask Colombo... he'll back me up)...

So....Ron... make us proud :)
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Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:49 pm

A few years ago there was a magnetic device that was clamped to your fuel line being sold.
I bought one and it made no difference to my fuel consumption.The ads for them had plenty of testimonials from other people claiming they worked.
So I have been scammed before, so maybe thats why I am skeptical.
But if there is scientific proof or an article in a leading motoring magazine that it works, the I'll definetly try it! :mrgreen:
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Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:54 pm

GTO wrote:A few years ago there was a magnetic device that was clamped to your fuel line being sold.
I bought one and it made no difference to my fuel consumption.The ads for them had plenty of testimonials from other people claiming they worked.
So I have been scammed before, so maybe thats why I am skeptical.
But if there is scientific proof or an article in a leading motoring magazine that it works, the I'll definetly try it! :mrgreen:
And that is exactly why I'm glad one of our own guys is going to test it. At least he will be telling the truth and have nothing to gain by claiming better fuel consumption etc.
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Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:21 pm

1st reportback. I managed to finish the wiring between showers. I started the engine without the system, let it warm up, and switched on the system. The first thing that happened was that the idle RPM rose from 800 to 1500. I went for a short drive and on a hill I climb every day I pulled away in top gear, so I appear to have more power. I will take it for a run tomorrow. I have some business to do in Langebaan, so I will show the setup to Pieter if he is at home.
Ron.
P.S. Caskru, you have it exactly right, you are mixing two gasses

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Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:49 pm

Hi Ron, Even if it rains you can visit, we can take my bakkie out of the garage and have a look at the system inside. Looking forward to see you.
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Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:35 pm

En soos altyd..... FOTOS! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:03 pm

Just a quick question Ron :arrow: Will you turn the idling down so it returns back down to 800rpm :?:
Im trying to understand were exactly the fuel saving comes from :?
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Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:10 am

Tristan wrote:Just a quick question Ron :arrow: Will you turn the idling down so it returns back down to 800rpm :?:
Im trying to understand were exactly the fuel saving comes from :?
Tristan. If I understand it correctly it works as follows. The browns gas (HHO) that gets produced by the device he built, gets pumped into the air-intake side of the motor. This then combines with the gas from the fuel that is created by the injectors. As far as I know browns gas is much more combustible and burns cleaner and quicker. So... by combining the two the normal fuel burns more efficiently and less is needed to create the same power.

Let's describe it this way. Think of petrol as gunpowder and the HHO as C4 explosives. Both can make a nice hole in the ground but you'll need different quantities to get the same result. Let's say you'll need 1kg of gunpowder to make a hole 1m deep in the ground where you will need 100g of C4 to do the same job. So if you combine the two explosives you will need about 500g of gunpowder and 10g of C4 to make a hole 1m deep. So you are using less gunpowder (the expensive stuff in this equation - petrol) by adding C4 (the free stuff in this equation - HHO). If this makes any sense..... good. If not.... eish
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Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:11 am

Let's describe it this way. Think of petrol as gunpowder and the HHO as C4 explosives. Both can make a nice hole in the ground but you'll need different quantities to get the same result. Let's say you'll need 1kg of gunpowder to make a hole 1m deep in the ground where you will need 100g of C4 to do the same job. So if you combine the two explosives you will need about 500g of gunpowder and 10g of C4 to make a hole 1m deep. So you are using less gunpowder (the expensive stuff in this equation - petrol) by adding C4 (the free stuff in this equation - HHO). If this makes any sense..... good. If not.... eish
This is still the best explanation i have heard yet.
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Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:23 am

Great explanation :!: :mrgreen:

BUT, I think what tristan is asking is what is stopping the carb from supplying the inlet and chambers with the same amount of fuel as it did before :?: Surely by putting your foot flat in the HHO circumstances it will provide exactly the same amount of fuel as in the normal cicumstance with no HHO :?:

This would mean that to make it work more efficiently you would have to re-jet you carb to smaller jets, as the added HHO will make up for the loss of fuel and in turn give you better fuel consumption. :wink:

Or am I talking balony :lol:
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Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:51 am

Scooter wrote:Great explanation :!: :mrgreen:

BUT, I think what tristan is asking is what is stopping the carb from supplying the inlet and chambers with the same amount of fuel as it did before :?: Surely by putting your foot flat in the HHO circumstances it will provide exactly the same amount of fuel as in the normal cicumstance with no HHO :?:

This would mean that to make it work more efficiently you would have to re-jet you carb to smaller jets, as the added HHO will make up for the loss of fuel and in turn give you better fuel consumption. :wink:

Or am I talking balony :lol:
I believe this is where the ECU comes in which automatically adjust to compensate for this. On older carb type I believe you have to do the job of the ECU :)
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Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:09 am

I am no mechanic, just thinking out loud. If you have “better” explosion you will tend to use the accelerator less. For example if you use to drive at 100km and your pedal is depressed ¾ of the way now with the HHO you will only depress half. Less fuel.
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Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:13 am

Now that makes sense George :D

Perhaps Ron will be able to shed some light after he has tested it a bit.
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Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:24 am

george wrote:I am no mechanic, just thinking out loud. If you have “better” explosion you will tend to use the accelerator less. For example if you use to drive at 100km and your pedal is depressed ¾ of the way now with the HHO you will only depress half. Less fuel.
My thoughts exactly... and now.. with the "better" explosion, If you depress the accelerator more.... :shock: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :mrgreen:
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Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:59 pm

Ron came to visit me this morning. He built a very neat system. We will do a consumption test soon. The engine runs very quiet and smooth.

We talked about it and I fiddled in the garage and then we found an old chlorinator that has been laying in the garage for a year now. I found it at one of the houses we bought. The electrodes of this thing seems to be ideal to use for a hyrogen4gas thingy.

Is there anybody who knows these things and who knows if one can buy the electrode separately. I posted picture below about the electrode, the casing it comes in and then the name on the power supply. If I can finish mine today I will put it in the Tazz tonight and test it when we go to Cape Town tomorrow.
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Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:12 pm

Pieter AFAIK any pool shop will be able to sell you a new electrode. I cleaned my electrode the other day and when I saw Rons contraption I immediately thought that it might work with the pool electrode. Just don't think SWAMBO would like me to swipe the pool one :mrgreen:

IIRC they do come at a price though.
"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realise that what you heard is not what I meant."

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Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:20 pm

Hi Piet.We have also discussed the chlorinator option.And i must say it looks like one of the best option.They are just expensive if you buy new.
This is going to become very interesting.
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Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:48 pm

Scooter, what did the electrode cost you?
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Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:40 pm

Pieter, they range from R1200 to R6000 depending on the model. Of course for something like this conversion that is a little pricy. The amount Ron has spent is far less than that.

You should take the one you found to a pool shop and ask them to test it. If it works then finding a suitable carrier for it is all it would need I reckon and whatever other mods you need to do to it. But I think the plates would be great for this.
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Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:56 pm

Scotter,I have emailed the suppliers for prices, but if they are that steep, back to the drawing board, I'm sure you can buy that S/S mesh some where, and I will make one to fit the Consol glass jar. The unit Pieter has is fitted with only a 1.2 amp fuse, so it can't chew much juice.
When I was at Pieters we started the engine, and when the gas came through the RPM climbed, and the engine ran smoothly. So I have a witness for that.
George mentioned his father in law also used S/S mesh. I wonder did he get it from the same source as Pieter.
Ron.

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Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:05 pm

Concerning the price, George, I am trying to find out what only the electrode will cost, not the complete unit. Apparently you have to replace the electrode every now and then.

Anyway, I finished it this afternoon. But there is not a lot of gas coming from the electrodes, or not as much as from Ron's.
See pictures below:
I removed the electrode from its original fitting. I cut a lid for the Consol Jam Jar from a piece of 5mm bakelite that was laying around here. Because of the thickness of the bakelite I had to use one of those OLD extra thick rings for the jar.
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To adjust the amount of bubles I used one of those fish tank vlaves, Ron gave me one. For the other fittings I bought from the pet shop, also fish tank fittings. The elbows are R1 each and the little one way valve was R10.50.
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You can see that there are not a lot of bubbles coming from the electrodes.
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To insert the tube into the hoses on the engines I used one of these normal irrigation fittings.
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On the Tazz it is easy to fit. The left hand breather pipe is connected to the air cleaner and the right hand breather pipe is connected to the bottom of the carburettor. So I just inserted the two pipes on it.
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I placed the container next to the battery. The power I took from the solenoid on the carb since the little wires which is going to the wiper motor seems extremely thin on the Tazz. I decided to use the Tazz to test, If something does go wrong it is much cheaper to replace an engine than on my Hilux.
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Only Dead Fish Go With The Flow!
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Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:39 am

Pieter

Ek is seker dof maar hoekom koppel jy die kontrapsie aan die tappet cover?

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Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:02 am

Die breather pypies gaan een direk na die air cleaner en die ander een direk na die basis van die vergasser, dus sal (hoop ek) die gas dus daardeur opgesuig word deur die pype, of is my redenasie verkeerd?
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Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:13 pm

Jou beskrywing klink amper reg maar jou prentjie lyk nie so nie. Een probleem wat jy dalk kan hê as jy die een pyp aan die basis van die vergasser (onder die butterfly ) koppel is dat die kontrapsie 'n throttle bypass (idle up) device gaan word wat jou vortuig se idling gaan opjaag omdat hy nou lug verby die butterfly kan suig soos wanneer jy die idling screw indraai om die butterfly oop te stel

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Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:59 am

BenHur wrote:Jou beskrywing klink amper reg maar jou prentjie lyk nie so nie. Een probleem wat jy dalk kan hê as jy die een pyp aan die basis van die vergasser (onder die butterfly ) koppel is dat die kontrapsie 'n throttle bypass (idle up) device gaan word wat jou vortuig se idling gaan opjaag omdat hy nou lug verby die butterfly kan suig soos wanneer jy die idling screw indraai om die butterfly oop te stel
Translasie asbl :oops: :cry: :oops:

I'm "on the edge" of my seat with this topic, can you keep it in Engels asbl :oops:

Thanks :wink:

Rich

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Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:52 am

Ek stem saam met Rich... Eeeer!!! I mean I dont understand Afrikaans so I vote with Rich :lol:
This thread is very interesting and us souties are to dof to speak two languages so if possible please try stick to English :mrgreen:
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Dadz Toy wrote:
Translasie asbl :oops: :cry: :oops:

I'm "on the edge" of my seat with this topic, can you keep it in Engels asbl :oops:

Thanks :wink:

Rich
Oor-lation pleasel :oops: :cry: :oops:

Ek is " op die rand" van my stoel met die onderwerp, kan julle hou dit in engels pleasl :oops:

Dank


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BenHur wrote:Pieter

Ek is seker dof maar hoekom koppel jy die kontrapsie aan die tappet cover?
I is sure faint but around corner connect you the contraption on the klep stoter bedekking?
pietpetoors wrote:Die breather pypies gaan een direk na die air cleaner en die ander een direk na die basis van die vergasser, dus sal (hoop ek) die gas dus daardeur opgesuig word deur die pype, of is my redenasie verkeerd?
The asemhaler pypes goes one direct to the lug suiweraar and the other one direct to the base of of the far-gasser, thus shall (hope I) the gas thus there-trough up sucked get through the pipes, or is my reason-nation wrong?
BenHur wrote:Jou beskrywing klink amper reg maar jou prentjie lyk nie so nie. Een probleem wat jy dalk kan hê as jy die een pyp aan die basis van die vergasser (onder die butterfly ) koppel is dat die kontrapsie 'n throttle bypass (idle up) device gaan word wat jou voertuig se idling gaan opjaag omdat hy nou lug verby die butterfly kan suig soos wanneer jy die idling screw indraai om die butterfly oop te stel
Your be-writing sound almost right but your picture look not so not
One problem what you maybe may have if you the one pipe on the base of the far gasser (onder the botter vlieg) connect is that the contraption a vergasser keel klep (luier op) toestel goes become what your feedgear’s luiering goes upchase because why he now air farnear the botter vlieg can suck like when you the luiering skroef inturn to the botter vlieg open to adjust


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Rich

I asked him why it looks like the pipes of his contraption is connected to the tappet cover

He then said no, the one pipe goes to the air cleaner and the other to the base of the carburator. He said by doing so he hopes that the vacuum and airflow created by the engine will such the gas from his contraption into the engine.

I then said that it will suck through this device but that it might become a throttle bypass (idle up) device

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Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:31 pm

Hi BenHur. I think Pieter must still be in Capetown. Maybe the pictures of my installation shows it a bit better.
One pipe goes to the air filter pipe via the vacuum pipe that connects the tappit cover to the air cleaner The other one is tapped into the other vacuum pipe and fed into the air intake under the carb. The gas does not go through the carb from this pipe. The reason for two pipes is that under certain conditions the vacuum suction is greater at the air intake.
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Hope this makes it clearer
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Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:39 pm

Ron I hope you are driving around lots this weekend, Im very anxious to see the results :wink:
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Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:58 pm

Hi Tristan. It,s too bloody cold to drive around, but what I've seen so far has encouraged me to make another gasifier which will go in series with the first one, this doubles the gas output. I am anxiously waiting for Pieter to return from Capetown to see what results he got. I had a sudden thought that the big electrode he fitted might need 24 volts, any way lets wait and see.
Cheers,
Ron.

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Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:47 pm

Ron/Pieter

Just one thing to consider. Not sure if it can happen but just ensure that If there is water vapour in the system by the time you switch the engine off that it is not sucked into the wrong direction (like into the engine via the tappet cover as the engine cools down and sucks in air.)

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Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:31 am

Hi Bennie,there is no water vapor involved. The water in the gasifier never gets less.
Ron.

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Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:27 am

Hi Ron, the water will get less over a period of time. As you generate the gas some of the water also evaporates. But yes, Bennie the vapor is such small amounts that it takes very long before you can see the level of the water going down.
I also thought of water entering the engine especially if the container is very full. If you go around a corner fast the water might hit the bottom of your two vacuum tubes and water can get sucked into the tubes. But then again some racing teams are injecting small amounts of water into the engine for extra performance.
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Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:42 am

Irishman wrote:Hi Bennie,there is no water vapor involved. The water in the gasifier never gets less.
Ron.
:shock: :shock: Were does the gas come from if the water level doesn't drop :?:
Do you have to replace the water after a while :?:
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Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:30 am

Tristan, It's a bit difficult to explain in a few words.I was a bit simplistic when I said no water. Think of it as your battery. The electrolite also need topped up with distilled water. Exactly the same thing happens with the gasifier. I am going to build another gasifier to put in series with the existing one before I start the consumption test which is quite complicated.
You fill up at a specific pump until the automatic cut off clicks in on the filler.You then do a round trip,and fill up at THE SAME PUMP This is done with the gas system off.
Now you do the same trip with the gas on, starting at the same time of day and under the same conditions I.E wind etc. It's no good doing the same trip if there is a fourty knot headwind and the temp is 20deg different. Again you fill up at the same pump, and now you have got accurate figures to work with. In this day and age you record trip distance on your GPS.
This is a good excuse to drive around in your lux :P
Cheers,
Ron.

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Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:21 am

Ron, a lovely day like today is ideal for testing. There is just about no wind. I thought that if you fill up at the Engen on the West Coast road, drive to Blouberg and back, fill it up again and immediately do the second run, on a day like today you should get rather accurate results.
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Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:24 am

OK, my first test run did not work. The electrode from the chlorinator delivered very little gas and the process stopped for some reason later on.

BUT, while fiddling with it yesterday I noticed something interesting. Ron I think you can keep this in mind when building your second cell.

The chlorinator electrode unit I used has 7 grids. 4 of them are connected to the one connector and 3 to the other.

I now found that if you connect positive to the one with the 4 grids, you get very little gas as I show in picture 1 below and it uses about 1.5Amp. But if you change the polarity and put positive on the one with 3 grids you suddenly get lots of gas coming off and the current it uses dramatically increase to about 11 Amp. See picture 2 below and the link to the video file at the end.

So I will be building a unit using a coil this week. Similar to the one Ron uses.

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Image
Sorry, the video link is not working yet, my Vodacom 3G has been absolutely pathetic this weekend, will let you know as soon as it is working.
http://www.hilux4x4.co.za/photos/water4gas/gas.avi
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