4Y EFI Conversion - Chapter 2

Discuss modifications on your 1979 to late 1998 SFA 4x4 Hilux here.
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Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:35 pm

***********************************************************************

We split these posts away from the Electronic Difflock topic to clean the dicussions out a bit and group the topic separately.

So the post below belongs to the 4Y EFI discussion but will not fit chronologically into the existing 4Y EFI discussion either hence the new topic.

We locked the other topic and will continue the discussion in this one

Sorry if it causes any confusion

Eric and Bennie




***********************************************************************




Bretton,

er... have you read this thread yet?
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=676

You mentioned Wessel from 4xtech in another thread. I sent him an email requesting details on his EFI conversion nearly three weeks ago, to the address on his website. Ain't yet heard nuttin'!

I am quite serious about EFI, but not at a ridiculous price - I can buy a lot of petrol still for R10,000! :P

If you hear anything from Wessel (don't know how far you are from him), please let me know what he would charge for an EFI and what Management System he uses. Does he sell the EFI in kit form so I could tackle it up here (with the assistance of my good mate Bennie :mrgreen: )


-F_D
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White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
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Pra Dog: 1998 Prado VX 3.4
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Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:53 pm

F_D, Wessel does the whole thing, they don't have DIY kits. I know they have been installing the GoTech system. I'm not a fan of GoTech though, from seeing 2 hilux's with GoTech installed. My Hilux fanatic friend Craig has one installed, which has been causing him endless issues, he has often had to plug in a laptop to reset the mapping. The other chap seized his engine on a dyno, because the GoTech was over fueling. My research to date has pointed at the Dicktator management system. For the rest, it all look pretty straight forward. I wonder if I would have to replace the electronic Toy dizi if I decided to go EFI, I hear you need a hall pickup type dizi.

Bretton

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Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:22 am

I enquired about the EFI form 4xTech at the beginning of the year and it was around R6500, drive in drive out!

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Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:11 pm

I have a feeling that Wessel is going to give us some feedback on this, soon! :P


-F_D
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White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
Bull Dog: 1987 4Y-EFI 2.2 DC 4x4
Pra Dog: 1998 Prado VX 3.4
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Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:02 pm

snipes wrote: I wonder if I would have to replace the electronic Toy dizi if I decided to go EFI, I hear you need a hall pickup type dizi.

Bretton
No need to touch the dizzy. I have spoken to Chris Dicks from Dicktator and he said that you can use the Dicktator as a "fuel only" setup just as the Mr Turbo and it will work well with the 4Y's electronic dizzy.

You must just inform him of your intention when buying the unit and he will supply a filter with that can be installed between the ECU and the existing dizzy to "clean" the signal supplied to the ECU for engine speed reference. The Dictator will then only control the EFI and the e-dizzy will still be responsible for the ignition system.

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Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:17 am

ToyPiet wrote:I enquired about the EFI form 4xTech at the beginning of the year and it was around R6500, drive in drive out!
That is just the deposit.... Then you start paying the monthly "Go-Tech" payments..... :shock:
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Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:03 pm

I don't think Wessel is the computer type. I will give him a call and tell him to have a look and reply to the questions.
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Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:54 pm

It is not worth it to do an EFI conversion for fuel consumption, the sums just don’t make sense, the reasons should rather be better engine control throw the rev range, better power and better incline and decent stability. Concerning the type of after market ECU to use is a very personal and opinioned debate. If you look at the 3 cheep once that is mr Turbo, Dictator and Gotech MFI all 3 of them are pretty much the same and does the same job and for what you pay for them you actually get a lot. The big thing is though to ensure that the person who does the installation and the setup knows his product and need to know what he is doing. I have heard a lot of people complaining about all 3 of these products being the reason for enjin blowing up and all other type of problems. This is actually very unfair to these products because I have never com across any one of them being the reason for blowing an engine but what I have seen is enjins being blown up because of bad installations, bad setup and being driven to pieces on a dyno.

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Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:36 am

Hi Wessel

Baie welkom :mrgreen:
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Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:14 am

After having gone through this exercise myself, choosing between Mr. Turbo and the Dicktator, my good friend Bennie said I should stick with Dicktator. He was 100% right!!! :mrgreen: My 7M-GTE Hilux is one of the fastest 4x4s on the road...

I do however believe that for the 4Y EFI conversion a Mr. Turbo would be the correct system, as it is easier to manage should you have a problem. Am I correct here Bennie? I also believe that it is slightly cheaper than a Dicktator unit...(R750)

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Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:59 am

Hi Wessel

I agree with your statement on EFI for fuel economy not making great sense from a return on investment perspective. (But with a 10% improvement on fuel consumption at the current fuel price increases it may change soon :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink: )

But as you said better power delivery across the range is a definite improvement, but then also better throttle response and then definitally the fact that the vehicle will not starve on fuel on steep climbs which is a definite problem with many carbs.

Speaking about ECU I tend to differ from you slightly. I currently have a Mr Turbo unit which was running my 7MGE engine and it does a 90% good job. But because it does not have the Interpolation feature the fuel maps can not be set that fine and there is a noticeble difference between the movement from one bar to the next. If you adjust the settings so that there is a more moderate jump between the bars so that the engine is not running jerky, you may not run that bar at its optimum value no more. I have seen on a dyno that you can move the cursor within a bar by moving the throttle position slightly without going into the next bar and it could influence the CO reading quite significantly.

No with the Dictator having the interpolation and target value settings this disappears and the movement between the bars is much smoother and the engine runs optimised all the time.

The other big difference is the ignition timing. Since the Mr Turbo has only one timing setting against RPM and one Advance and Retard setting against throttle position (manifold absolute pressure) it is difficult to map the engine timing to be optimal over the complete rev range vs throttle position. If my A&R settings were optimised at about 3000RPM where I tow my trailer the engine ping's when crawling off road doing 800 RPM pushing the throttle open fully.

Now with Dicktator you have more different A&R settings across the rev range so you can optimise timing at 3000RPM and 800RPM. With the Mr Turbo I have to download a different ECU map when going bundus vs when towing vs everyday driving.

Don't get me wrong I am not knocking Mr Turbo all together. When I do the EFI conversion on Limey (my Lux with the 2Y) I will be using the Mr Turbo, because I already have it, but I am definitively getting a Dictator for my 7MGE. I recently saw a 1600 cc Citi Golf with a large intercooler and turbo on running Mr Turbodoing 132kw on the front wheels on the dyno in 3rd gear, with 2 "klein" oukies sitting on the slamtray to keep the wheels from continuously spinning when trying to accelerate on the dyno. (But this golf is a street racer and it only know 2 throttle positions, i.e idle and flat out :wink:)


The other advantage of the Dictator is that it can also can drive a "Pulse Width Idle Control Valve" v.s. the on-off idle solonoidl that the Mr Turbo does via on of its GPO outputs, so on the 7MGE it would be a great advantage but on the 4(2)Y the Mr Turbo is fine for controlling its idling solenoid.

There is also another ECU on the market called MSX (http://www.msx.co.za) but the guy is based in Cape Town, so logistics makes it difficult to evaluate this product before committing to buy it. At first glance it seems to have all the features that the Dicktator have with the added advantage that it can also connect the Knock Sensor (and lambda IIRC). But it would be difficult to say if the interpolation and other features are as refined as the Dicktator. Maybe you CTN guys can evaluate it and let us know. :wink:

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Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:15 am

Ewald

Looks like we are posting at the same time. As far as I know the Mr Turbo fuel only goes for R 1800 except if you know something I do not. It is goes for R 750 then yes I would say go for it but at R 1800 vs R 2100 for the Dictator I would still go the Dictator route.

I saw another unit that Dicktator made on special order for a customer yesterday, called the "Top Fueller". Chris from Dicktator is reluctant to sell it to the public since he says that at the price he sells it, it would not make sense for him to support it as well, but he will be willing to sell it via his resellers that can support it if they add their mark up to it. This unit is based on the Dicktator but is a scaled down version, but incorporates a firing module in the unit so it will be great for Single dizzy cars and will also save you the money of having to buy an ignitor if you want to us it for Ignition control as well. It will work great for the 4Y. I saw it running in a 3.0L Skyline on the Dyno yesterday and is was running great.

So if the resellers would be willing to sell it at cheaper than R 2100 that would be my recommendation for a 4Y conversion. Apparently Spitronics has a now unit out as well which might be an option too. I am still trying to get info on it though.

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Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:53 pm

Hi Wessel,

Welcome to the forum! I'm sure we're going to have *lots* of questions to tickle your brain with... :)


-F_D
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White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
Bull Dog: 1987 4Y-EFI 2.2 DC 4x4
Pra Dog: 1998 Prado VX 3.4
Hound Dog: 2000 2.7i SC 4x4


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Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:58 pm

Thanks, Bennie! :P


-F_D
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White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
Bull Dog: 1987 4Y-EFI 2.2 DC 4x4
Pra Dog: 1998 Prado VX 3.4
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Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:52 pm

I went to buy Eric's EFI system today. 8) 8)

Now I have a problem. Knowing my good friend Eric and how much of a perfectionist he is when it comes to his SFA, I am afraid that he will not sleep at night if the EFI system on his Lux looks like this. :twisted: :twisted:

Image

Now the big question, how do I clean this Aluminium to get it looking brand spanking new, so that my friend can enjoy his beauty rest. :wink:

Same goes for the exhaust manifold. :shock: :shock:

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There is some rust on the heat deflection plate (which will be covered totally by the intake), but I know Eric would not sleep. The plate is most probably sink or something. How do I clean the plate :?:

DOELLOOS

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:55 pm

Sandblasting.......

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Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:02 pm

Het jy 'n kontak?

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Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:28 pm

Now I have a problem. Knowing my good friend Eric and how much of a perfectionist he is when it comes to his SFA, I am afraid that he will not sleep at night if the EFI system on his Lux looks like this. :twisted: :twisted:
Worry, worry, worry.... fret.... fret.... <F_D chews his paws>.....

Bennie,

It's a great start! I will wear sunglasses :)

Here is a write up I found on the 'net, after I had calmed down... :mrgreen:

http://www.team.net/sol/tech/clean_al.html

Haven't read it through yet, will do so now.

-F_D
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White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
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Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:51 pm

Ok, have now read it, and the author has offered some very interesting ideas.

1. Prewash with something like Cleen Green & an old stubby paint brush.
2. Use plastic Scotchbrite Pads, not metal type.
3. Sand blasting not really recommended, as it leaves the aluminium pitted.
4. Pressure wash: Removes heavier dirt and oil but not any corrosion.
5. Dishwasher: For individual pieces you get results similar to a pressure washing. Of course cleans the insides of pieces so be sure to blow air through passages to get out residual water (But don't tell Mrs. Benhur... :mrgreen: )
6. WD40 !!
7. "Etching formula mag wheel cleaner"

Other ideas include various acids & solvents, the more volatile the better the cleaning action, but I don't think those are necessary.


-F_D
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White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
Bull Dog: 1987 4Y-EFI 2.2 DC 4x4
Pra Dog: 1998 Prado VX 3.4
Hound Dog: 2000 2.7i SC 4x4


One Staffie, One Jack Russell, One Ring Neck Screecher, 17 Fish of questionable heritage


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DOELLOOS

Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:01 am

Hi Eric and Bennie,

A light sandblast session will have those parts looking like new... especially on the rust...

Unfortunately I don't have contacts, I see just fine...

Yes Bennie, I know someone who knows a friend who knows another friend who bought a dog from a friend of the owner. :mrgreen:

I will find out...

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Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:10 am

Hi Bennie

We use a product called Aluglo to clean ali parts and it is awsome how it cleans parts that have been covered and baked in oilf for years :!: :mrgreen: Just the other day we cleaned a manifold for a E12 BMW a 79 5 series and it came out like new. What you do is you use a presure washer to get most of the oil of and then you brush on the Aluglo and as it starts working it foams and throfs like a acid then you wash it of with water and the repeat the process and till it is clean.

I will see if I can get the full details on the product on Monday for you. :D
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Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:39 am

wow, that sounds even better than my plan.....

pray do tell where we can get....

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Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:16 pm

Spend some tome today cleaning it a bit.

I brushed it with engine cleaner and then pressure washed it but the mayor stains/marks is from aluminium rust so I would like to try Justin's stuff.

I sanded it a bit and that helps but it will take weeks to sand them down smoothly.

This is how the unit looks now.
Image
Image

The individual parts

Image

The throttle body itself still needs a lot of cleaning and my some carb cleaner as well on the inside, and also the fuel rail.

Image

The connectors for water channel that heats up the throttle body was damaged. I drilled them out and tapped the holes with M10 thread, so now I need to make or find some sort of nipple to use there. I have nipples like the one at the bottom of the picture but it uses metric fine thread. Any ideas where I can get something like this?

Charmaine caught me while I was busy working.

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And daddy's little helper.

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Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:43 pm

Gosh Bennie, they look like new already! I hope my 4Y engine is clean enough, looked terrible when I last saw it all full of sanding dust at Tommy's place.

If you require Metric Taps to make those nipples fit, get them and just add it to my account. (I might have to sell the Hilux in order to repay you, but that's life! :P )

Daddy's little helper has got the loveliest pair of blue/gray eyes ever!


-F_D
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White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
Bull Dog: 1987 4Y-EFI 2.2 DC 4x4
Pra Dog: 1998 Prado VX 3.4
Hound Dog: 2000 2.7i SC 4x4


One Staffie, One Jack Russell, One Ring Neck Screecher, 17 Fish of questionable heritage


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Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:10 pm

No I already tapped the holes with M10x1.25 but must now get a nipple with the same thread. Alternatively I must get a 12mm rod ( but preferably not mild steel that will rust so I can dice it to the same thread.)

These threaded rods they sell at the hardware stores, are they mild steel?

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Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:42 pm

They usually are mild steel, but I think you can get them in bright steel as well.


-F_D
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White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
Bull Dog: 1987 4Y-EFI 2.2 DC 4x4
Pra Dog: 1998 Prado VX 3.4
Hound Dog: 2000 2.7i SC 4x4


One Staffie, One Jack Russell, One Ring Neck Screecher, 17 Fish of questionable heritage


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Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:08 am

Bennie why dont you get 3CR12 threaded rod and just remove the thread on one side or better 3CR12 bolts with a nice smooth shank :?:
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Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:03 am

How hard is 3CR12, will I be able to drill a hole through it, remember I do not have a lathe :wink:

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Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:21 am

Its not to hard we use it quite often for similar aplications on the older cars and we usually just use a HSS bit to drill though it
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Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:10 pm

K - will give it a try, should I just turn the screw in or glue/seal it with something like lock tight or Pratley Steel to make sure it will not leak water under pressure?

DOELLOOS

Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:48 pm

Bennie, wil jy nie sommer my karre se enjins ook vir my was nie asseblief? :mrgreen:

Jy kan dit sommer hier kom doen dan hoef jy nie jou eie water en seep te gebruik nie. Ek sal my vrou vra om ook 'n foto van my te neem terwyl ek sit en TV kyk terwyl jy die karre was. :shock:

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Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:30 pm

I spoke to Mervyn at Speedy Engine today and asked him what they use for cleaning alu heads etc. He says they use a 50-50 mixture of Prepsol (obtainable from Autozone, ±R30.00) and Diesel. He said the dirt just dissolves off.


-F_D
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White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
Bull Dog: 1987 4Y-EFI 2.2 DC 4x4
Pra Dog: 1998 Prado VX 3.4
Hound Dog: 2000 2.7i SC 4x4


One Staffie, One Jack Russell, One Ring Neck Screecher, 17 Fish of questionable heritage


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Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:46 pm

For those still wondering about possible power gains to go the EFI route on the 4Y - dont expect more than 10% increases in kw and torque, BUT, engine much more responsive, and surprisingly smoother.

I had the ignition and fuel control with Mr Turbo EFI on mine before also going the 7M route - the 7M is simply in another class when it comes to power and refinement - it just needs PROPER cooling if you want it to be reliable.

The sound of the 6 cylinder at 4000 to 6000 rpm is awesome - gives me the goosbumps even on a hot summer's day :-)
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'89 Hilux DC 7mge Cressida Conversion
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'05 Subaru Forester 2.5 XS Premium

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Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:44 pm

how is your plans coming along for the EFI conversion F_D?

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Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:34 pm

Ewald,

I think we have most of the necessary items now. We plan to tackle this after Christmas, at a mutually acceptable time between Bennie & I.

Of course, I'm trying to twist Bennie's arm to come do it here in Klerksdorp, bring his family along and spend a few days here :mrgreen:

How about it, Bennie? The Vaal River is calling... :P


-F_D
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White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
Bull Dog: 1987 4Y-EFI 2.2 DC 4x4
Pra Dog: 1998 Prado VX 3.4
Hound Dog: 2000 2.7i SC 4x4


One Staffie, One Jack Russell, One Ring Neck Screecher, 17 Fish of questionable heritage


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DOELLOOS

Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:40 pm

I have a boat, will bring the beer....

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Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:02 pm

No problem, we have launching facilities & jetties. The more hands, the merrier!

We have about 7km or so navigable water, might be more, not sure.
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-F_D
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White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
Bull Dog: 1987 4Y-EFI 2.2 DC 4x4
Pra Dog: 1998 Prado VX 3.4
Hound Dog: 2000 2.7i SC 4x4


One Staffie, One Jack Russell, One Ring Neck Screecher, 17 Fish of questionable heritage


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Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:33 pm

Hi Guys, I drive a Landy, so please dont knock me to much, you know how sensetive us landy people are. Only joking rip me off as much as you like. I'm here for advice and the experience you have with EFI management systems.

I have read some of the posts regarding the different management systems, the pro's and con's that have been posted. I'd rather ask for advice from some one who has had experience with the management systems in an off-road situation than just for track use. If I went down to the local "make it go fast(ish) garage" they would'nt know what I want.

I have an old Range Rover Classic that I use to drive in challenges, at the moment I driving in standard class but want to move up to modified class next year. The car has the std rover 3.5 V8 in and I'm going to fit a new Disco1 3.9 V8 (less than 10 000 km old) and I want to fit fuel injection. I have been wondering about which ECU to use, I have been told by a few people to use a STD ECU and run a piggy back chip, but for the expence of doing all that I'd rather buy a aftermarket ECU.

I think i'v narrowed it down to between Dicktator and GoTech. I'v visited both of their websites and I like the Online support offered by Dicktator (and the price) but I'm not sure.

I don't like the idea of triggering four injectors at a time, it seems to be a bit of a waste of fuel to me. (Do standard EFI systems run like this) Wont the unburnt fuel "wash" the cyclinder liners and cause glazing? I see the Gotech Pro X uses sequential injection which I like but it wont use the distributor pick up, it must pick up off the flywheel. Which would mean changing the flywheel, a bit out of my budget. (I'm a 4th year apprentis at Land Rover so as you can immagine pay is not very good, challenge car money comes from PJ's done in my spare time)

What about knock sensors and Lambda sensors, I know the lanbda sensors usually sit after the cat and are used to correct emissions, but how does the ecu know if the mixture is running a bit lean or too rich. You can only set the Co's on idle, what about at 3000RPM under load? Not that it is a major concern of mine, I just want to move away from the SU's. I dont like carbs, EFI makes better sence to me.

I was also thinking about runnig coil packs with a "wasted spark" setup, purely from a wadeing point of view. The distributor doesnt like it when the water level is more than bonnet height. (My dog was sitting on the back seat once during a deeeeeeeeep wade, he simply stuck his head out the window and drank some water. The water was a little deep but the engine ran fine) But again I think I'll need a flywheel pickup rater that the distributor.

Finally if I were to fit a turbo (not sure if I want to do it, but it's nice to think about) which ECU will be able to cope best.

Rory

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Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:18 am

Sjoe Rory that is a mouth full in one post. ;)

First before trying to answer, let me rip you first
Rory wrote:Land Rover(sorry guys)
No need to apologise to us, it you who are stuck with the Landy, but at least we can offer condolences. :twisted: :twisted: You must follow the example of our other member here called Landy who saw the light and is now busy buying a SFA Lux :wink:

Enough ripping:

GoTech vs Dicktator. This is a very interesting question, which will get you different responses from different fields. I will offer you my personal opinion based on my personal investigation.

I do not know the Go-tech that well, so I can not really endorse or knock it, I see it is more popular amongst Cape Town lads, but not that popular up here with the Vaalies. What I saw is, that it is a bit more expensive than the Dicktator (IIRC since it has been a while since I did the comparison)

If you take the cost issue a bit further, converting from a Dizzy to Wasted spark is going to cost you considerably more. You are going to need a coil pack, more than one igniter and a crank/flywheel pick up. Therefore, from that perspective I would say stay with a standard dizzy set-up.

During my investigation to determine the best system for my 3.0l Supra engine in my Lux (7MGE) I spoke to Chris Dicks from Dicktator and asked him what route to go for my 7MGE engine since it might be an easy option for me to convert to wasted spark as the 7MGTE comes stock in that configuration. He told me that the reason why you would need the "stronger spark" from the wasted spark set-up is if you were running a turbo. When you are boosting (especially if your boost were turned up) the multi coils would perform better then a single coil, but on a NA engine it is not really necessary to convert (hence the stock 7MGE run a single coil vs the 7MGTE running wasted spark)

Regarding the Lambda sensor, my investigation turned up the following: Closed loop Lambda control works mostly in the low RPM range and adjustments to the fuel ratio is done in that range. Once the engine is running past 1/4-1/2 throttle the Lambda sensor does not have any influence on the system in any case. Again, I asked Chris why his system does not do Lambda when his biggest competitor out here the Mr Turbo does. He laughed and told me that he too can add an extra wire or two to his system and another programmable field to GUI but that the effectiveness of it is virtually zero and an eye blind. He said that to have decent Lamba control you need a more complex 5-wire Lambda Sensor and then still the effect of it has more to do with pollution (the CAT-converter thing etc) then the engines fuel efficiency.

Regarding the comment on optimising CO's at higher RPMs that is not true. With a after market ECU you can optimise the engine over the complete rev range on a proper dyno (load cell not free running dyno), since the car is stationary the gas analyser stays connected all the time. So even without the Lambda sensor, the engine can be optimised to 99%+ over the complete rev range on the Dyno if the guy knows what he is doing.


Regarding the knock sensor (And this is something I would have liked very much myself, since my engine does have such a sensor available) Chris' and the guy from Mr Turbo's response were as follows: The portion of any OE ECU that controls the knock sensor is normally twice as big and complex as the rest of the ECU. The knock frequencies and harmonics of every model engine on the market differ. Even for a stock vs optimised engine is not the same. That wil mean that they will have to develop a different algorithm for the different engines on the market, and multiple circuits for the different make sensors, which will make theses after market ECUs too expensive for anyone to afford without a sponsorship on his vehicle, and this is not the market for which they build these ECUs . There are guys building such systems but at R 15-20K vs R 2-3K they play in a different market altogether.

BTW my neighbour removed a Mr Turbo with a modified dizzy (Hall sender) which was giving problems on a Landy running a Rover 3.5 V8, and installed back a standard Rover dizzy and then installed a Dicktator system. The owner was pleased afterwards with the results, as his OE ECU and the Mr Turbo system gave him endless problems. The problems he had with the Mr Turbo was not so much the ECU as it was the modified Dizzy, but the inability of the Mr Turbo to interface with the OE Dizzy was the Achilles Heel of that set-up.

You can also read my previous posts, in this and other topics, about the timing set-up of the Dicktator and see why it is so much superior over other systems on the market. Its ability to have more detailed timing adjustments negates the use of a knock sensor and makes it work so much better then some of its competition in the off-road market, as you alluded to in your post, since many of the other systems are more focused on the Street-, Drag and Track racing markets.

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Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:21 am

Some update on our progress.

We want to keep within a sticks budget, but we do not want to cut corners so we have done some research (and is still doing) on how we are going to install and commission this system successfully first time round. Our aim is to do the conversion as affordable as possible but it must be a well running system without any rawness in operation or long term maintenance / reliability issues. Our biggest restraint is the fact that Eric lives in another country;) (province) so time is an issue and we have to do us much as possible preparation work upfront so that once we start the process, it can be completed quickly.

This week I picked up the Dicktator that we are going to use for Eric's conversion. Our next challenge was the fuel pump. After some deliberation between Eric and me, we came to the following decision:

We decided to stick to an external fuel pump, as installing a submersible one would mean that we would have to remove the tank, after draining it and since we only have a short time to do the conversion this was not the best option for our scenario.

When I enquired about the difference between a in-line and submersible unit I got different answers but the only guy who could give me a possible reason (other than noise) why an submersible pump would be better; reasons like this:

These pumps are lubricated by the fuel it pump, so if it runs dry often it will wear out prematurely, so his logic is that if you remove the pick up from your tank cut the pipe shorter with the same amount as the length of the pump, then it will never run dry. However, thinking about it afterwards, my logic says that the pick-up would still sit in the same place as normal. So if it were to suck in air due to an almost empty tank (when acceleration or stopping hard, or when cornering or when driving on slopes) it would not matter if the pump was in the tank or not, it would still suck in air. The only difference is that the submersible one would bleed the air out quicker then the in-line one. So far my in-line one on the 7MGE has not failed, and I have done quite a bit of crawling up steep inclines to date. I can think of two possible remedies for this:

The easiest one would be to fill up your tank when it gets to halfway between the 1/4 and empty mark and then the chances of the pickup sucking air is zero. If you are doing a trail keep the tank above the 1/2 - 3/4 to compensate for when you are doing those 50 degree climbs ( which I am sure the 4Y EFI would easily do :twisted:) and the added weight of the fuel in the back would also aid traction.

If the above option is not to your liking the second more involved one would be to add a little reservoir of about 500-1000ml just before the pump and have the fuel return line pump via this reservoir as well. That should aid in the instances where the pick-up in the tank is exposed.

What we like about the external pump over the submersible one is that it is easily reachable so if you drive into deep darkest Africa you can always take a spare with and it can be swapped out in about 5 minutes. The other advantage is that you now have the option to add another fuel filter inline just before the pump to keep the dirt in the tank from entering the pump because the other main reason for pump failure is garbage from your tank going into it damaging the moving parts.

Since the guys at Mr Turbo this month has a special on their pumps we bought a Bosch replacement unit there for R 300 compared to a genuine Bosch unit going for between R 1200-1800 depending on the model and where you buy. We figured that we can get 3-4 cheapies for the piece of the original one and Erik can always swap it for a more expensive one later if he decides to do so. The unit we got was the FP601 3BAR 6BAR 210L/H 12V, (replacement for various Peugeot and Renault models as well as BMW 318i) 3 Bar is the normal working pressure and 6 Bar is the cut off value. a 210 litre per hour fuel delivery rate should be enough for even a heavy foot like myself :twisted: :twisted: (I hope :? :wink: )
fuelpump.jpg
fuelpump.jpg (6.02 KiB) Viewed 9602 times
The other thing to consider is idling control or regulating. The EFI manifolds we bought has a few different mechanical idle up systems connected to it that works mainly with vacuum. Since this is old school and quite an involved system the best alternative is to control the idling electronically via the ECU as well. Again this is where the Dictator is superior over the Mr Turbo, as it can control a Electronic Pulse Width Idle Control Valve as is used by various later model VW, Ford, etc systems. The ECU can be adjusted to an idling speed of lets say 850 RPM. The ECU will then maintain this minimum engine speed via the ICV so as the load on the engine increases it will open the valve more to maintain engine speed. Chris reckons that with a ICV which has a large enough ID he has seen this system produce up to 30HP on a dyno. He reckons that you can simply stick the vehicle in gear release the clutch rather fast even on an incline and the ECU will keep the engine running. This will be perfect for crawling up inclines in 4L at idling speed, or to pass the pulling away on an uphill portion, of your drivers licence test. ;)

Chris reckons the VW Golf unit works well and is easy to pick up at a scrap yard as new ones are quite expensive, so Eric managed to track down one at the local scrap yard in Klerksdorp (van alle plekke nogal). The guy wants R 400 for it but I am sure Eric would be able to twist his arm a bit to get a better price as I do not think is a high volume seller for any scrap yard in places like Klerksdorp. :twisted: This is the unit.
VW Idle Controller 1.JPG

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Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:28 pm

Today I picked up a Toyota Intake Air Temperature sensor at a Toyota scrapyard for R200 after Toyota quoted me over R 1k when I phoned them yesterday. I nearly fell of my chair R 1k for a thermistor in a plastic packaging, that is daylight robbery if I ever seen it happen.
IMG_6426.JPG
I checked Limey today and it has a whole with a plug turned into it just beneath the existing water temperature sensor (Which the stealers wants R 500 for vs R 60 something for a new Eglin one at Autozone)

Eric can you compare your engine and see if it has a similar place to add the extra sensor?
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Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:17 pm

Bennie,

I think so...!! My engine bay is so full of whatever that it was difficult to see outside tonight, I just aimed the camera and let waai with the flash.
Intake Air Temperature Sensor Hole.jpg

-F_D
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White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
Bull Dog: 1987 4Y-EFI 2.2 DC 4x4
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One Staffie, One Jack Russell, One Ring Neck Screecher, 17 Fish of questionable heritage


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DOELLOOS

Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:56 am

Rumour has it that you are putting up a holiday camp for mechanically minded Hilux enthusiasts there in your valley Eric. Half a star nogal...

How far are you booked in advance? Price?

:mrgreen:

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Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:56 am

Good that means the problem of where to fit the second water temp sensor is answered.

Things are really falling into place now. The only things I am not going to buy beforehand is the pipes and wires as we would rather buy that as we need it during the installation.


I had my neighbour run me through the Dicktator program,yesterday just to make sure I am not missing anything as I am at this stage more experienced on Mr Turbo, but I believe it would not be too difficult to get the system running at an acceptable level so that we can drive it back to PTA to have it properly mapped on his dyno when we finished the installation.

After Bretton's question about using the Dicktator to control the timing as well I had a look at one of these intergrated Dizzy's yesterday. Schalk had one in the shelf and we opened it. With the dizzy's cap off you can clearly distinguish the Coil, the magnetic Pick-up and the igniter as separate modules inside the Dizzy. In January when Dicktator opens maybe we can get hold of Chris and ask him if it would be difficult to wire the Dicktator into the dizzy using the existing parts so that it can control of the timing as well. This should not involve any cost except if he wants to charge us for helping out with the wiring of the dizzy.

This is not really necessary on your engine as the dizzy is quite capable of doing the timing while your engine is stock standard, but Schalk explained to me yesterday that if you have an engine with modified cams/head or anything like that where you need to change timing, it would be more beneficial to have the Dicktator control the timing as it can be better controlled via the Dicktator across the rev range.

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Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:35 am

7MGTE wrote:Rumour has it that you are putting up a holiday camp for mechanically minded Hilux enthusiasts there in your valley Eric. Half a star nogal...

How far are you booked in advance? Price?

:mrgreen:
No charge for the cottage, subject to availability!

The Grounds charge a nominal fee of a few Rand, but it's dirt cheap. Let me know when you would like to come and if it's not pre-booked, you're most welcome indeed. There probably still is place for Caravans. The resort is private, originally (probably still) owned by the Mine, but we (the stand holders) are in the process of buying it out from the Mine. All gate takings etc go towards the direct running & upkeep of the club, which was voted best Boat Club in the TVL some years ago.


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Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:39 am

Bennie,

It sounds good! I was wondering whether there would be any changes in the Chinese motor which could present a problem. I have the original 4Y motor as well, which has since been completely overhauled. I just have to collect it, maybe I should go see if the Engineering Shop is open, just in case but I think they are already closed. No sweat, if worse comes to worse I will collect it when they re-open and bring it up to Pretoria if required. We can always swap engines if need be.


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White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
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One Staffie, One Jack Russell, One Ring Neck Screecher, 17 Fish of questionable heritage


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Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:05 pm

I am sure everything will work well on the Chinese engines they do after all come our with EFI on the GWM bakkies :?

I assembled the whole system again this afternoon after all the cleaning was completed. I found some air nipple connectors to go into the holes where I removed the funny vacuum switches for all the mechanical idle ups, and I got welsh plugs to fill up the holes some other holes like where I removed the obsolete cold start injector. This is what makes the Dicktator so nice, the idling and cold start as well as regular start up priming is all controlled via the ECU and start priming is done on the normal injectors instead of the extra dedicated injectors what work via additional circuitry.

So all and all we cut out the cold start injector, idle up via a mechanical valve controlled by water temperature, idle up via a vacuum switch connecting via a vacuum pipe to the power steering pump, idle up via an external vacuum solenoid switched electrically together with the aircon pump and some other vacuums I could not figure out the use for.

So now the only pipe connections we will have will be:

- a vacuum connected to the tappet cover to such out air and prevent sump compression,
- another pipe to the tappet cover (filtered air but not manifold vacuum for letting air into the engine,
- manifold vacuum to he brake booster
- manifold vacuum to the fuel pressure regulator
- manifold vacuum to the Dicktator EMS for measuring manifold absolute pressure,
- manifold vacuum to a special idling stabiliser thingie on the butterfly( not really necessary but while it is there lets use it) and
- lastly the VW idling controller for throttle bypass that we are going to use to regulate the idling via the EMS

So by making the system much less complex the chances of vacuum leaks are reduced greatly and it makes fault finding in future easier.

I also powered the ECU via my battery charger tonight and connected to it via my laptop. I had no problem to get the connection up so it seems like we are all systems go.

Damn I am getting exited now, i can wait to get started.

Eric do you think we will be able to get the intake and exhaust manifold gaskets where they connect to the head in Klerksdorp or should I rather get them here?

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Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:04 am

Eric do you think we will be able to get the intake and exhaust manifold gaskets where they connect to the head in Klerksdorp or should I rather get them here?
Bennie,

We *should* be able to get them locally - either from Midas or from Toyota themselves. Should I go to Midas this morning and enquire? If they don't have stock they will get them the next day, perhaps a bit dicey at this time of the year. Are these the standard manifold gaskets, or are they different for the EFI manifolds? If different, then I doubt I could get them locally?

Your description above sounds inundating, you lost me completely! But I think once I see the EFI fitted and you explain to me - slowly & carefully! - what everything does, I might begin to see the light :)


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White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
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Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:50 pm

I presume its the same as the head stays as it is.

I drew my own diagram for connecting the wiring this morning that makes sense to me as it always help me to visualise and plan a project like this beforehand, rather then having to jump forward and backwards between the supplied diagrams as their's do not have everything on one page. See if this makes sense to you too.

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Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:39 pm

A Diagram is always more worth than 1000 words... it makes perfect sense looking at it like that rather than trying tp picture a batch of hoses & wires! Thanks Benny, I'm looking forward to it :)


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Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:00 am

We started with Eric's 4YE conversion yesterday. We got most of the mechanical work done yesterday, today we will have to fit the fuel pump and then the electrical fitment starts.

Today's challange: find a suitable place inside the dash somewhere to fit the ECU. Checked the left kickplate yesterday and see there is space but it bothered me as I was thinking about it last night, even though Erik said he does not drive into water I still would like to fit it higher up somewhere as I would sleep better at night then.

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Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:28 pm

I tend to agree Bennie as far as the placement goes. Because you never know you might be forced one day to go though deep water and then you will be glad you used the higher mounting point.
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Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:14 am

This is a progress update of what transpired yesterday.

We changed plan and did not fit the fuel pump yet. We started off by fitting the extra water temperature sensor on the block directly above the existing one and then proceeded with the fitment of the ECU and the wiring installation.

We settled on fitting the ECU directly above the radio head unit. First I had to explain to Eric that there would be minor plastic surgery involved. The shock and horror on Eric’s face was quite something…

What followed then involved a lot of Prozacs, some handkerchiefs, also some ropes, chains, tie downs, a bottle of whiskey and some other stuff, which I would rather not mention here as this is a family forum. :twisted: Eric finally agreed but still under huge protest. What finally convinced him was the fact that I reminded him that he has 2 spare dashboards in his store room that he could strip to replace this cover should he ever needed to in future. :shock: :shock:

I forgot to mention we had to tie him down before making the hole in the air cleaner cover to fit the intake air temperature sensor (IAT). He immediately afterwards phoned the manager at Toyota Klerksdorp to order a new one on expedited shipping from Japan to keep in storage with his extra engine and 2 dashboards and other spares he keep in the store room. :shock: If it continues like this we should be able to build up a couple of SFA’s out of the spares that Eric keep just in case. 8)

The fitment of the unit came out very nice. We unscrewed the front panel of it and refitted it outside the plastic dash cover and made holes so that the LED’s and the serial port are visible on the outside. (Eric you can post a picture here if you want to :wink: )

We used 2 existing holes in the firewall, the one is adjacent to the place where the aircon plumbing come through the firewall and was used to route the vacuum pipe that runs from the plenum chamber to the MAP sensor that is situated inside the ECU. The second hole is just off to the right of the centre of the firewall and was used to route the wiring loom through.

From there the harness is split into 2 directions. The wires feeding the TPS, Injectors, the IAT and Idle Control Valve (ICT) were routed to the left of the vehicle and the wires going to the Dizzy, battery, water temperature sensor was routed to the right. All the earth wires and the Fuel pump power will route directly downwards from there but still needs to be done tomorrow.

We worked until about 10:30 last night. We are taking today off and if Eric wakes up eventually and come down here to the river where we stay we might still be able to enjoy taking the boat onto the river ;) I hope we will be able to finish tomorrow but at the latest on Tuesday.

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Family_Dog
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Town: Klerksdorp
Vehicle: Hilux DC SFA, Hilux 2.7 DC, Hilux 2.7 SC, Prado 95 VX
Real Name: Eric
ORRA Call Sign: HC101
Location: Klerksdorp, NW
Contact:

Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:35 am

Here are some of the pics, we took very many but cannot post them all here...
4Y EFI Conversion 039.jpg
Inlet Manifold & Weber carb removed
Willie used a blade (flat side) from a Stanley knife and scraped all the goo off from the head. Then came the new bits and pieces...
4Y EFI Conversion 043.jpg
So carefully cleaned by Bennie. Looks brand new!
Bennie measuring the heat shield prior to cutting of same. This stuff is expensive (from Midas), but necessary . Note the Injectors fitted.
4Y EFI Conversion 045.jpg
Some of the major Inlet components prior to assembly
4Y EFI Conversion 049.jpg
Component assembly commenced. Note the Injectors and Heat Shield
4Y EFI Conversion 061.jpg
4Y EFI Conversion 093.jpg

4Y EFI Conversion 098.jpg
/continued...


-F_D
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White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
Bull Dog: 1987 4Y-EFI 2.2 DC 4x4
Pra Dog: 1998 Prado VX 3.4
Hound Dog: 2000 2.7i SC 4x4


One Staffie, One Jack Russell, One Ring Neck Screecher, 17 Fish of questionable heritage


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Family_Dog
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Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 10:09 am
Town: Klerksdorp
Vehicle: Hilux DC SFA, Hilux 2.7 DC, Hilux 2.7 SC, Prado 95 VX
Real Name: Eric
ORRA Call Sign: HC101
Location: Klerksdorp, NW
Contact:

Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:51 am

Now comes the heartbreaking part... surgery!
4Y EFI Conversion 067.jpg
Jacques enlarging the 12mm hole with a Dremel tool. Sounded like a Dentist and I'm sure the metal filter cover was screaming in pain.
The completed hole, and the Air Sensor before fitting
4Y EFI Conversion 069.jpg
Tammy is shocked at what is happening, while rusty is 'standing' on guard...
4Y EFI Conversion 070.jpg
Benhur's expression of glee before he started hacking the centre console that Toyota so thoughtfully designed... (Wouldn't you also start to worry?)
4Y EFI Conversion 076.jpg
After surgery, the Dicktator unit will fit behind the brown plastic above the radio cutout, the adjacent cut-out is for the DB9 programming Connector. The Dicktator unit may be seen on Bennie's lap.
4Y EFI Conversion 077.jpg
Refitment of the modified console... my fears are starting to subside and my heart rate is nearly normal
4Y EFI Conversion 081.jpg
Don't go away folks... more to follow...

-F_D
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White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
Bull Dog: 1987 4Y-EFI 2.2 DC 4x4
Pra Dog: 1998 Prado VX 3.4
Hound Dog: 2000 2.7i SC 4x4


One Staffie, One Jack Russell, One Ring Neck Screecher, 17 Fish of questionable heritage


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User avatar
Family_Dog
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Posts: 12521
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 10:09 am
Town: Klerksdorp
Vehicle: Hilux DC SFA, Hilux 2.7 DC, Hilux 2.7 SC, Prado 95 VX
Real Name: Eric
ORRA Call Sign: HC101
Location: Klerksdorp, NW
Contact:

Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:10 am

All the wiring was wrapped in that close-wrap spiral plastic wrapping. This served two purposes:

* Keeps the wiring neat and together, and
* Provides a certain degree of heat-insulation for the wiring.

We used Heatshrink tubing in various places to provide a neat finish and to secure wires to connectors. Not having a heat gun at hand, we used the old-fashioned method of shrinking the tubing.
4Y EFI Conversion 083.jpg
4Y EFI Conversion 086.jpg
The wiring loom was then taped with a good quality insulation tape.
4Y EFI Conversion 088.jpg
Routing the Vacuum Hose to the Dicktator unit through the firewall
4Y EFI Conversion 100.jpg
All wiring connections were soldered before covering with heat shrink tubing
4Y EFI Conversion 102.jpg
The Idle Control Valve fitted in place between the piping of the Donaldson A/F
4Y EFI Conversion 112.jpg
At 10:30PM on Saturday night, a tired but happy Benhur...
4Y EFI Conversion 114.jpg

Next Instalment to follow Monday!

-Benhur & F_D
Image

White Fang: 1999 2.7i DC Raider 4x4
Bull Dog: 1987 4Y-EFI 2.2 DC 4x4
Pra Dog: 1998 Prado VX 3.4
Hound Dog: 2000 2.7i SC 4x4


One Staffie, One Jack Russell, One Ring Neck Screecher, 17 Fish of questionable heritage


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DOELLOOS

Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:53 pm

Well done boys!

The fate of the Hilux 4x4 EFI conversion advice article is resting firmly on your shoulders, not to mention F_D's poor bakkie...

Do us proud.

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Cookie Monster
LR 4WD Full Lockers
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Posts: 940
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:02 am
Town: Port Elizabeth
Vehicle: 1990 4y 2.2 DC Hilux, import rear axile no lockers
Real Name: Justin
Location: Eastern Cape

Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:00 pm

Things are looking good FD looks like you are doing a great job Bennie :mrgreen:
1990 DC 4x4 SFA,Cooper STT, Sony ICE,Bluetooth,BMW Seats,OME shocks and nudgem bar
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BenHur
Monster Truck
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Posts: 5933
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 7:12 pm
Town: Pretoria
Vehicle: '96 D/C Raider
Real Name: Bennie
Location: Doornpoort

Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:54 am

Ja Justin we try to make it appear that we know what we are doing, but the proof will be in the pudding i.e.will it start when we are finnished....


Benhur & F_D (chewing their nails nervously until it bleeds :twisted: :twisted: :wink: )

BenHur
Monster Truck
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Posts: 5933
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 7:12 pm
Town: Pretoria
Vehicle: '96 D/C Raider
Real Name: Bennie
Location: Doornpoort

Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:21 am

Today is off to a slow start, we are still waiting for Charmaine to finish breakfast so that we can get fuel into our bodies to start the day.

I am feeling a "bruised" after playing a bit hard yesterday. It started off with me taking the laaities driving on Eric's nephew Jacques' kid's pitbike. But the problem came in with someone of my size on a 125cc pitbike, its like Goliath on a trike, so I ended up sitting on the rear mudguard with the laaities between my legs and all I can comment on that is a real "gatsaag"...

Later we took Eric's boat onto the river and Jaques were pulling us on a tube. Well Jacques managed to get me thrown off the tube only once (not that he have not tried to get me off more often) but obviously my arm, tummy and chest muscles took a little strain.

Then after that we were dicing the laaities on the water slides at the pool causing a few bruises.... :shock: :shock:

This morning I feel as old as Eric is :twisted: :twisted: but I am so thankful towards our Heavenly Father that after my back-op I am able to play and enjoy being active with the boys again. You do not know how blessed you are or what you have until you suddenly loose it. :D :D :D

Back to the topic, today we must install the fuel pump and finish off the wiring, Then we need to finally assemble the plenum chamber and throttle body with all its plumbing and then we should be ready to give it a try... :? :?

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