Hilux2.4LTD(22Rto22RE)Dyna/Dyno-Before(Carb)&After(EFI)

Discuss modifications on your 1979 to late 1998 SFA 4x4 Hilux here.
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theo.greyling
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Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:43 am

Hi Guys,

I'm not new to the forum as a member, but new in adding a topic, so please bear with me. :angel:

This is our conversion story (22R to 22RE), with carb (before) Dyna/dyno results and EFI (after), and many more after (extra Dyna) results from different Dyna-tuners.
Hilux2.4LTD_2004.jpg
Our 1998 2.4l LTD Hilux
Hilux2.4LTD_2004.jpg (79.72 KiB) Viewed 1969 times
In 2008 I started research on how to improve fuel efficiency on our 1998 2.4 Hilux LTD (22R). Since I'm no mechanic, and know very little of vehicles, it took me close to 3 years of research before we decided to go with the 22RE (Dicktator) conversion. The main parts (manifold, fuel rail, injectors, air inlet housing with filter etc.) got ordered from USA late 2010, and arrived early 2011. It was extremely expensive to say the least, plus the SA buggers charged us customs and import taxes when the parts arrived on our shores. Anyways, had to bite the bullet and pay the people (can't have them ship the stuff back after I paid US dollars, and waited almost 4 weeks for the parts to arrive). :wth:
Other than getting the main parts, there were so many other little parts (Dictator [ECU], surge tank, fuel pumps and filters, regulator, fittings, sundries etc.) still to source, that we only managed to get going with the actual conversion in Nov 2011. (Got a few parts every month or so.)
The conversion alone took us almost 12 weeks (including December break) before we could get going to the first Dyna/dyno. You can imagine the EXCITEMENT at the time. :razz: :dance1:
So, in 2008 we had our Hilux (22R) Dyna-Tuned for better fuel consumption, and boy, what a difference; 66 to 76 Hp. (I'll add the scans later on...) :clap:
In 2012, she was EFI'ed (22RE) and ready for that Dyna... funny enough, max HP was still around 76, but she felt different, more responsive. Around the block and between robots she felt kinda mean, so at the time I was very happy (a little concerned about the fuel smell and some black smoke coming from the exhaust while she runs, but happy).
So, time to see whether we can beat the 8.2km/l we used to get with our Hilux on the open road (not loaded). Off to Bloemhof we went, and what a different ride; far less down shifting on the gears, and much more stable keeping her at 100km/h (normal cruising speed for us when going on holiday). 350km later, time to refill... when the garage fuel pump's meter started to tick over more than we were used to at filling for our normal fuel consumption (should be around 42/43l at 350km for 8.2 km/l), our eyes got bigger. :wth: As that pump's meter rolled over to 50l our hearts started pounding in our throats. I started looking underneath the 4x4 to see whether we might be leaking fuel somewhere... “Luckily” she was full at around 54l (6.5km/l)... WHAT! How can that be!!!! You can imagine our disappointment! :cry: :o:
So, we discussed it with a few friends, and naturally I came to the hilux4x4 forum for input and advice. It was decided that we'll give it 2 more runs, because it could be that the previous petrol fill-up was probably not full to the rim, wind can be a factor etc.
Off we went for another few trips, and unfortunately the 6.5km/l stayed with us. DANG!!!! :shock2:
The next thing we said was, well, we rarely drive with the Hilux not loaded, so let's hook the trailer and see because she feels like she has a lot more power, and perhaps if the 6.5km/l stays, we still won't be happy, but at least it is in the same fuel economy vicinity of what we got with the carb (in some cases, with no wind, we used to get around 7km/l when pulling the Venter when she had the carb). Low and behold, pulling the trailer, the fuel economy was worse (as probably expected), 5.5km/l. :alvarin: :?:
How can this be? Nothing, except the conversion, was changed. Tires were the same as before, tire pressure was the same (or close at least), the same amount of weight in the Venter and in the Hilux (or close at least) as before the conversion.
In theory, the fuel injection should improve the fuel economy if configured/setup like that. Surely the Dyna-tuners heard us when we said, thousands of times, why the conversion was done; to save on fuel.
We tried it 2 more times (loaded), and still, 5.5km/l. We even had to run around town for a month with the Hilux since one of our day-to-day vehicles had to go into the chop shop for a prang/skid on a wet highway after a heavy rainfall (luckily no one got hurt), and got 4.2km/l. OH NOOOO!!!! :frustrated:
You guys should see the black deposit on the garage wall close to the Hilux's exhaust where she parks; she is so over rich, I can't even explain. So, it was time to take her to another expert Dyna-tuner, the guys who Dyna'ed her when she was still a carb, the guys who gave us 10 extra horses on a standard setup. Unfortunately they could only add 1.3 horses more (to 77.3HP) but hopefully the fuel smell will be gone, no more black deposit and smoke coming from the exhaust, which will ultimately get us at least back to our carb-time fuel economy numbers.
With our first fill-up after a "new" test run, we still did not get the carb-economy, but at least got slightly better from 5.5km/l to around 6km/l (loaded). You can imagine how sad we were at the time. So sad, that we said we have no choice but to take her for another "expert" Dyna, so we coughed up another R1000 for a Dyna. You can imagine how expensive this little conversion is becoming. Last we counted, we spent close to R30 000 on this conversion. Yes, ridiculous right! :oops:
Anyway, so we took her to her third Dyna (third time lucky hey), or so we hoped. These guys we took her to, were supposed to be THE best (we had to make an appointment 3 weeks in advance, and only the lucky ones get in with them... or so we were told.)
Another 1.6 extra HP (78.9HP) and a few extra tweaks (the torque seems kinda nice; flat and high from the start), so maybe this is it. As we drove off from the Dyna property, we could not really feel a difference (not that 1.6 extra HP will do anything, unless you had none to start with :celebrate: ), but the next morning when we wanted to start her, she almost refused, and when she eventually kicked in, a lot of black smoke was present and a heavy fuel smell (over rich once more) and had to book her back in again, and you know what, we had to wait another 3 weeks. Oh boy!
This time she stayed over at Dyna so her cold-start can be checked out.
Luckily she came back and the cold she contracted from that previous visit was all sorted out. :yahoo:
We have now made various long (loaded) trips with her, but never get close to the previous 7.5km/l we used to get with the carb. Best we could get was around 6.2km/l. (Putting the carb back will probably not help, because once one changes a setup, it will never be the same as before. Or so the experts tell us. Which makes sense, because most everything else works like that; if you “fix” what’s not broken, you break it, and can’t put it back the way it was.) :blink:
We really want to enjoy our Hilux again, so are almost at our very last straw (actually second last) to make her better, so thought to give one of the Dyna-tune experts on this forum a chance before we start thinking of some radical changes again.
Perhaps it’s not a tuning issue, but a setup issue. We don’t think it is the setup because various mechanics have had a look, and can’t find anything majorly wrong. Perhaps something small is an issue, like the advance, or ignition or something, but really, something is up with our EFI. It is evident hey. :idea: :?:
Our Hilux only has 98 700km on the clock (yes, less than 100k :angel: ); she still smells new on the inside (well kinda), and everything else is in excellent nick and shape, so it will be a very sad affair if we can't get her back to her previous glory days, or even better, theoretically.
From reading this forum for the past few years, we are extremely positive that it has a magician somewhere out there that can transform our ‘Lux back to (or close to) her former glory fuel-efficient-days.
Any and all advice, stories, add-ons etc. will be very helpful and extremely grateful guys, so please help.

I'll load the engine pics and Dyna/dyno result scans in order (chronological) as mentioned in the story above, in a few.


Thank you for reading, and hope to hear from you.
Cheers!

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LouisZ
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Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:29 am

Morning,

Sounds if the ignition timing and rotor phasing is out.

Post pics of the conversion and open the distributer(remove dizzy cap), turn the engine to TDC and take a photo of it. Also send your map of Ecu to my e-mail ls.zanoli@gmail.com

Most of the conversions on the 2.4 is not always a "just fit", one have to get the dizzy setup right aswell also by inserting it into the engine again it should be done correct. Also if the mag adaptor is wrongly wired into the harness of the system it could less performance and ignition problems.


I include a dyna underneath, all the 22R I done so far reached +/- the same. Near to 86hp will be the weakest sofar that still fair.

Now you have to just send the info.

Louis
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Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:30 am

Hi Theo
I had the same problem after my conversion so when I took my 2.4 for the dyno they told me that my visco fan don’t release .I replaced it and can already see that there is a big difference in my fuel consumption

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Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:26 pm

Hi Kobus, yeah, my viscous was busted. We noticed it during the conversion, so opted to put in a brand new Toyota viscous, but thanks for the info. It is amazing how sometimes a small issue can ripple into BIG things. Thanks again for the post.

Louis, thank you so much for the response. Really appreciate your wisdom. I'll do so as soon as I have some time (add pic of distributor). The quickest would be to send you the current map which I'll get from my laptop at home. Here are a few pics, pre and post, for th emoment...
Will add Dyna scans in a bit. (Need to resize them.)

Carb:
Hilux2.4LTD_Carb_001.jpg
Carb
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Hilux2.4LTD_Carb_002.jpg
Carb 02
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Hilux2.4LTD_Carb_003.jpg
Carb 03
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Hilux2.4LTD_Carb_004.jpg
Carb 04
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EFI:
Hilux2.4LTD_EFI_001_20140407_161654.jpg
EFI
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EFI 02
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EFI 03
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EFI 04, Surge tank
(206.44 KiB) Downloaded 485 times

theo.greyling
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Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:40 pm

Dyna/dyno result scans:

Carb:
01.Hilux2.4LTD_Carb_DynamometerReport_July2008.jpg
01.Hilux2.4LTD_Carb_DynamometerReport_July2008
EFI:
FEBRUARY2012 - HP
02a.Hilux2.4LTD_EFI_DynamometerReport_BHP_Feb2012.jpg
02a.Hilux2.4LTD_EFI_DynamometerReport_BHP_Feb2012
FEBRUARY2012 - kW
02b.Hilux2.4LTD_EFI_DynamometerReport_kW_Feb2012.jpg
02b.Hilux2.4LTD_EFI_DynamometerReport_kW_Feb2012
AUGUST2012
03.Hilux2.4LTD_EFI_DynamometerReport_Aug2012.jpg
03.Hilux2.4LTD_EFI_DynamometerReport_Aug2012
SEPTEMBER2012
04.Hilux2.4LTD_EFI_DynamometerReport_Sept2012.jpg
04.Hilux2.4LTD_EFI_DynamometerReport_Sept2012

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LouisZ
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Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:20 pm

Was the Dizzy Locked to 40 degrees?

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Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:51 pm

No one touched it as far I know, except to check the timing before the Dyna run starts, and I was at each Dyna, (was not with her when she had to stay over of course). We also did not think it necessary to change anything on the distributor side during the conversion.

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Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:54 pm

The last Dyna-tuner did inform us to think about changing the ignition so the Dicktator can take care of the timing, but we did not think it to be too much of a problem since so many other conversions don't even mention it in that way.

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Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:14 pm

theo.greyling wrote:The last Dyna-tuner did inform us to think about changing the ignition so the Dicktator can take care of the timing, but we did not think it to be too much of a problem since so many other conversions don't even mention it in that way.
Hi Theo,

I have to compliment you on your bakkie and on the conversion, seems very well done. :thumbup: :thumbup:

However, I would think that the ECU must also take care of the ignition, the timing will play a big role under different conditions. That's where the power of the ECU comes in, one can tune it much more precisely than what the original dissy's vacuum and mech advance can do.

Good luck, hope it get sorted.

Cheers,

Chris
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Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:51 pm

I see also the Trottle Position sensor is wired. A bit of hickups like this. Better like Chris say to wire in the ignition and also to lock the dizzy. This way the Ecu can control the ignition much better.

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Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:29 pm

cprinsloo wrote:
theo.greyling wrote:The last Dyna-tuner did inform us to think about changing the ignition so the Dicktator can take care of the timing, but we did not think it to be too much of a problem since so many other conversions don't even mention it in that way.
Hi Theo,

I have to compliment you on your bakkie and on the conversion, seems very well done. :thumbup: :thumbup:

However, I would think that the ECU must also take care of the ignition, the timing will play a big role under different conditions. That's where the power of the ECU comes in, one can tune it much more precisely than what the original dissy's vacuum and mech advance can do.

Good luck, hope it get sorted.

Cheers,

Chris
Thank you for the feedback Chris, and the compliments. Yeah, I try and keep my rigs clean :smile: .

I've been pondering about that ignition, so perhaps I should make that my next project. You probably noticed it takes me a while to get things done, especially now, since I'm studying again. Yeah, crazy, I know :D: . So will see how I manage that change. Will keep you posted here.

Cheers, Theo!

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Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:41 pm

4x4megaworldpta wrote:I see also the Trottle Position sensor is wired. A bit of hickups like this. Better like Chris say to wire in the ignition and also to lock the dizzy. This way the Ecu can control the ignition much better.
Hey Louis, nice to see you catching the "small" things. Correct, I spent all that money on the Throttle Position Sensor, but none of the Dyna-Tuners want to use it, so we also have the vacuum towards the Dicktator, and currently uses that for the mapping.

I'm battling to find the current ECU map (hope the wife/kids did not erase it :-) ), but when I have some extra time, and can't find the map anywhere, I'll hookup to the ECU again and download it.
As far as the pics of the distributor goes; finding it more challenging than I thought. :-)
Will see what I can plan (very dark and mysterious in the garage) :think: , but will get them taken sooner rather than later. :lol:

...........

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Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:14 pm

Also, what's the thingy on the tappet cover where the other small air breather pipe is supposed to go? First time I see that?
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Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:32 pm

cprinsloo wrote:Also, what's the thingy on the tappet cover where the other small air breather pipe is supposed to go? First time I see that?
Hehehe, good eyes Chris. That is a small little K&N Filter L&C Engineering sent with the kit. ;-)

If you guys feel it needs to be connected to the throttle area with all those little pipes/outlets/inlets, then we do that. I'm all ears. :thumbup:

We just need to be 100% sure of what we do, and not do too many things at once. :wink2:
But baby steps, considering with what we have, are most welcome. :thumbup:

................................................

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Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:25 pm

It was a bit of a mission, but fun, to take these shots without moving the 'Lux out of the garage, in the dark. :celebrate:
Hilux_2.4LTD_Distributor__CRW_0005_TDC.jpg
TDC
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Hilux_2.4LTD_Distributor__CRW_0010_Rotor.jpg
Rotor position at 0deg...
Hilux_2.4LTD_Distributor__CRW_0010_Rotor.jpg (139.86 KiB) Viewed 1866 times
I hope this is what you were looking for Louis :angel:

......................

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Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:37 pm

Almost.

The dizzy is not locked, ie one see it as your photo shows still the centrifugal weights and springs. This means your rotor phasing is out.

The Efi dizzy setup is almost 80% of the success of the Conversion.

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Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:49 am

4x4megaworldpta wrote:Almost.

The dizzy is not locked, ie one see it as your photo shows still the centrifugal weights and springs. This means your rotor phasing is out.

The Efi dizzy setup is almost 80% of the success of the Conversion.
:yahoo:
Slat my pap met a nat snoek. :lmao:

WOW, is all I can say Louis!

Shows one (unexperienced) how easy it is to miss something so small that is actually so BIG/Important.

Shall I still get the ignition timing done from the Dicktator, or shall we go ahead and fix the dizzy (pun intended)?
I guess what I'm trying to say, is it worth forking out even more money for the timing conversion?
Even if it makes for a better robust system, I'll do it.

Wow once more Louis :thumbup:
Thank you so much for picking that up. :thumbup:

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Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:11 am

Hi Theo,

You'll need a mag adaptor (from Dicktator), and a TP100 ignitor module. The dissy fix consists of removing the vacuum advance and welding the weights in place (so that the dissy doesn't do any ignition timing change), it will be done by the Dicktator ECU. The ECU will then get a trigger pulse from the dissy, and according to the ign timing map, it will fire the coil at the calculated angle. As Louis said, the initial set-up is quite important, so that the rotor is at exactly the right position when it fires (aligned with the HT lead terminals), but you can do it yourself. Again, like Louis said, hugely important.

Cheers,

Chris
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Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:20 am

theo.greyling wrote:
cprinsloo wrote:Also, what's the thingy on the tappet cover where the other small air breather pipe is supposed to go? First time I see that?
Hehehe, good eyes Chris. That is a small little K&N Filter L&C Engineering sent with the kit. ;-)

If you guys feel it needs to be connected to the throttle area with all those little pipes/outlets/inlets, then we do that. I'm all ears. :thumbup:

We just need to be 100% sure of what we do, and not do too many things at once. :wink2:
But baby steps, considering with what we have, are most welcome. :thumbup:

................................................
Hi Theo,

We had some discussions previously of where that pipe must be routed to. That pipe is part of the crankcase ventilation system. On you carb set-up the pipe was at atmospheric pressure, as it is now (through that filter). If you're happy with the size particles the K&N filter wil block, leave it as it is (some people say a K&N will only keep out bigger rocks and animals). Otherwise you can splice that pipe into the air intake pipe (before the throttle), then you get the same air the engine gets (but it seems you already have such a filter, not the original Toyota one?).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crankcase_ ... ion_system" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cheers,

Chris
1998 Hilux D/C Lexus VVTi

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Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:47 am

You guys are AWESOME, in particular Chris and Louis!

I knew I would get some positive answers from this forum, but did not expect to get in in less than 24-hours. WOW.

I'll get the timing sorted in the meantime, not sure how long it will take (with studies and all) but will get back to you guys as soon as that's done.

Oor-en-uit,
Theo

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Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:31 am

If you are not mechanically minded, you can ask Louis to sort it out for you. Louis did the EFI on my Ex-Hilux, and the Hilux is going as strong as ever in Namibia ...
theo.greyling wrote:You guys are AWESOME, in particular Chris and Louis!

I knew I would get some positive answers from this forum, but did not expect to get in in less than 24-hours. WOW.

I'll get the timing sorted in the meantime, not sure how long it will take (with studies and all) but will get back to you guys as soon as that's done.

Oor-en-uit,
Theo

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Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:39 am

Ok there is a certain way to get the pickup aligned to the 4 fins on the shaft after the dizzy is locked. What is nice of the 22R's dizzy this one can adjust to almost perfect. Mainly if you do the Alignment to aprox 80% the setting on the Dicktator Ecu will help to get it to the Trigger angle to desired degrees.

Here is photo of where it is almost done. Point 1 is the pickup, 2a is the one fin on the shaft and then between 2a and 2b its almost 6mm gap. Remember to keep in mind to align the rotor to no.1 sparkplug on the dizzy cap. Then if one go further, if you got this right you also have get the air gap right to almont 0.15 between the dizzy pickup and one of the 4 fins on the shaft. This will make the spark stronger and easier to start.

The wiring like Chris said all is needed is the Igniter(Also called TP100) and the mag adapter. I think it is now R500 for the igniter and and R100 for Mag adaptor. There should be still the wiring in your excisting harness to do the wiring. 3 additional wires, Earth, ignition and Tacho(REV counter) wires will be connected to the Igniter.

Oh yes, on some 22R if you insert the dizzy one have to turn the engine to 5degrees and then insert the dizzy. That you will play around to see if you get the dizzy position right.
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Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:38 am

Good day

Would like to find out as to where I can find/locate fuel injection system for my 22R 97 D/C.
Any info would be appreciated.

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dantjie
Low Range 4WD
Low Range 4WD
Posts: 140
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:40 pm
Town: kuilrivier
Vehicle: HILUX SFA LTD 2.4 EFI
Real Name: Danie

Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:21 am

Hi seebeer the EFI systems is not the easiest thing to get a this point in time anymore the best find is to go on E bay and the other is LC engineering in the states that can help some of the guys on E bay sells the injection system apart in section as to the one hole full thing but just keep looking hopefully you will find something.
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WP_20140616_004.jpg
This is my one.

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Stef
Monster Truck
Monster Truck
Posts: 3108
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:54 pm
Town: Pretoria
Vehicle: '98 LTD
Real Name: Stefan
Club VHF Licence: X107

Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:50 pm

Instead of the magnetic pickup mine works on optical, still with the TP100.
I also had to remove the dizzy and turn a few teeth back to get the timing to work. I adjusted the timing by ear and when doing the dyno it was fairly spot on according to the timing light, we had to adjust slightly in the ECU but that was it.

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