7M-GE for 4x4 challenge vehicle

Alouette · Post by **Alouette** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:53 am

I am planning on driving in the 2010 4x4 challenge (www.4x4challenge.co.za). In order to do this I am preparing a challenge vehicle - I have found a old hilux 1800 with the 4 speed gearbox. This sorts out the gearbox, T/C, diffs and chassis. I need to replace the engine and have pretty much settled on the 7M-GE as the replacement. From reading the other posts here and a bit of my own research it would seem that they battle with head gaskets. Also overheating... Otherwise it seems like a pretty good machine.

In terms of practical issues:
1. What flywheel will fit (I understand the 4Y flywheel need a hole slotted...) Otherwise, is a 7M flywheel available and any suggestions where I find one.
2. Has anyone fitted the machine to the 4 spd box. Any idea if the cressida belhousing will fit to the box? Where would be the cheepest to get hold of the cressida bellhousing IF it would work?
3. What pressure plate would you recommend, the Toy 2.7 or a 4Y?
4. Does anyone have a idea of the gearbox splines - what clutch would fit and suit the pressure plate.
5. I have to put in power steering - I have been advised to install a rack on the front axle - anyone know what would work here?

I know it is really difficult to answer - but any suggestions will help at this time! This vehicle does not need to be "nice" but it MUST work and be able to take a whack of abuse - so nothing fancy!

ThysdJ · Post by **ThysdJ** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:07 pm

Marc, as long as you fit a steel head gasket (Reinz or similar) and up the torque spec your 7MGE will be fine. This fix has also been mentioned on this and other forums before. As far as overheating goes, if you fit a BMW 328 aluminium radiator with an electric fan you should be okay. My 7mge runs with these mods for about 2 years now without any problems.

Fit the 2.7 clutch/pressure plate, it is heavier duty than the 4Y. Kaspaas is also fitted with a 2.7 clutch and it works beautifully.

Alouette · Post by **Alouette** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:40 pm

Thys

Thanks for the advice! Good to hear from people who have done it sucessfully!

In terms of the Head Gasket - I did have a look on the internet regarding the Reinz. Where can I purchase them localy (JHB or PTA)

What flywheel did you use? - I have been able to source a 7M flywheel, but its expensive. The 4Y flywheel is approximately 1/4 of the price. Would the 2.7 pressure plate bolt onto the 4Y flywheel and/or the 7M? I will still need to confirm the splines on the 4speed box before I would be able to use the 2.7 clutch plate.

Hoppy · Post by **Hoppy** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:53 pm

You will have to make a bell housing or adaptor plate.
A 4y flywheel and starter fits with small mods.
The 2.7 clutch will bolt straight on.
Use a 2.7 radiator and BMW/Merc electric fan they fit and are big enough.
Anny rack that sits in front of the axle can be made to fit, but a 2.7 steering box with a cross link is the better option.

ThysdJ · Post by **ThysdJ** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:00 pm

There you have it straight out of the horse's mouth....

Alouette · Post by **Alouette** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:32 pm

Gents
I really do appreciate your quick response! As you can imagine I am under severe time and budget constraints - I have to be running by 6 February and I only collect the Lux tomorrow!

Hoppy:
In terms of the adaptor - would a laser cut flat 12 or 16mm plate with the necessary holes to match the engine to bellhousing, work or do I need to get an engineering works to machine recesses to fit the bellhousing that I will have? If so, any advice on where I should go? Gilo engineering told me today that "Nobody will ever be make a convertor for a 7MGE"

The other option I guess it to buy the Cressida bellhousing, then cut the required parts off the current one and weld it all together, although this sounds expensive....

I have read elswhere that the 4Y bellhousing can be made to fit, I assume that this is not true and that I should discard this idea?

Based on your advice I will get the 4Y flywheel. Glad about the pressure plate bolting directly in!!! Still concerned about the gearbox clutch plate splines though!

Last time I bought a RD28 the starter was still bolted on - does the 7MGE come without a starter? If so I assume its not too difficult or expensive to get hold of the starter?

In terms of the steering - Why do you suggest I stick with box and link (I assume you mean a steering box with a pitman arm and link that crosses to opposite side wheel, ie replace the manual box with a hydraulic assist box)

When the budget allows I need to replace the leaf springs with coils for extra articulation. As far as I understand, this means increased bump steer if I have a box and link? I need to make a informed decision here.

I really appreciate the advice!

Alouette · Post by **Alouette** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:57 pm

Just to make things more complicated:
I was unaware of the 1 JZ engine! Someone has just suggested I rather use a 1JZ - any comments about this engine?

ThysdJ · Post by **ThysdJ** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:03 pm

Unknown to me too.

Post by **Mud Dog** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:22 pm

1JZ and 2JZ are also popular conversions. They've been mentioned here from time to time, but not too much IRO details .... do a search on both.

ThysdJ · Post by **ThysdJ** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:23 pm

Do you already have a 7mge motor?

Mr_B · Post by **Mr_B** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:31 pm

Marc... how about the Lexus V8... or even better a 2GR-FSE...

Post by **Mud Dog** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:33 pm

These pics were previously posted some time ago ....

1JZ

: 1jz.jpg (46.01 KiB) Viewed 6092 times

2JZ

: 2jz.jpg (44.33 KiB) Viewed 6092 times

The JZ'z replaced the MG's

Post by **Mud Dog** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:36 pm

Here's another of the 2JZ .....

: 2jz 2.jpg (46.14 KiB) Viewed 6091 times

Mr_B · Post by **Mr_B** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:41 pm

Ok... the 2GR-FSE is a super engine, but it's probably not available in SA second hand yet... I did see some 2nd hand for sale... for $3500...

The 2GR-FSE engine is rated at 315 PS (232 kW; 311 hp) at 6,400 RPM

Mr_B · Post by **Mr_B** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:53 pm

For those you that would like to know more about the 2GR-FSE... read here:

http://www.sae.org/automag/techbriefs/0 ... 4-1-17.pdf

mr b

Alouette · Post by **Alouette** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:31 pm

Thanks for all the advice! I think some debate is called for! I need to know what to get by Monday morning!

I have not bought the engine yet. So I need a firm decision!

Here are my requirements:
1. Budget - I dont have much more that R8 - R10k to get the machine and get it matched up to the gearbox. (Including clutch and flywheel).
2. I need about 140kW and 260Nm. Anything above that will probably mean that something in the transission is going to break really soon. With the abuse that it WILL get, I expect things to break but dont want it to happen really quickly.
3. Fuel injection is a must. Due to the steep gradients. Electronic mangement is good too.
4. Mass - As light as possible.

What I am evaluating:
a. 7MGTE, (3L-S6) Cheep to buy, expensive to install. Head gasket problems
b. 1JZ. (2.5L-S6, twin turbo) Middle of price range. Middle price range to install. Too much power (210kW, 363Nm) HEAVY
c. 1UZ. (4L V8)Most expensive to buy, Expensive to install. Too much power (191kW, 353Nm). Light
d. 3VZ (3L-V6). Middle lower price range. not sure about installation. Power ok. Heavy.

After all that it seems that I should go with the 3VZ camry engine at the end of the day?
I have been advised by other compeditors that this is probably the safer route... Allan and Thys your imput would be much appreciated!

Bretton, that 2GR engine looks GREAT! But has WAY to much power and IS WAY out of my price range!!!

Mr_B · Post by **Mr_B** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:40 pm

The non-turbo 7MGE should be good enough for your requirement... the 7MGTE turbo version is probably to powerful and not suited to 4x4 off-roading...

- The 7M-GE was produced from 1986 through 1992. Output was 190-204 hp (142-152 kW) at 6000 rpm and 185-196 ft·lbf (250-265 Nm) at 4800 rpm.

- The turbocharged 7M-GTE was produced from 1987 to 1993. Output was 232 hp (173 kW) at 5600 rpm and 240 ft·lb (325 N·m) at 4000 rpm for most 5 psi (0.34 bar) versions

Be careful the 3VZ is not configured for a rear wheel drive vehicle... you can get a rear wheel config 3VZ, but they sell 2nd hand for about R 11000... again too expensive!

mr b

Clarence · Post by **Clarence** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:48 pm

Firstly if you have not bought the motor yet another idea would be. The motor is great but too heavy for a challenge vehilce. Rather go the route of a lighter more reving motor. Speak to Lukas

zepplin · Post by **zepplin** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:50 pm

The JZ motors are also available as non turbo.

Alouette · Post by **Alouette** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:53 pm

Bretton
What would the difference in configuration be for the FWD 3VZ and the RWD 3VZ?

Zepplin - I have been trying to source a non-turbo 1JZ but so far no-one seems to have stock! A non turbo would fit my criteria pretty well.

Clarence - What motor would you recommend that is lightweight but still in my price class. The 3SGTE is ideal but WAY out of my price range!

blom · Post by **blom** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:57 pm

i would build the car different for the individual classes
the 7m is NOT an option though (power to weight is silly)

Alouette · Post by **Alouette** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:00 pm

Blom
Agreed - I will be in production modified. I am going to shorten the Hilux chassis to about 2.45m wheelbase.

Correction here - I will be in MODIFIED

blom · Post by **blom** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:08 pm

Raait
the definately NOT the 7m
either the supra motor 2 litre multivalve with the charger (not turbo)
or lex
4 speed is cool
just make sure you would be allowed to cut the chassis in the production classes (i don't think you can, but do not know the rules that well)

Alouette · Post by **Alouette** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:18 pm

Blom - I assume the 2L supra is the 3SGTE - its allmost R10 grand just for the machine! There is no way I can afford it!
You dont think that the lexus has too much power??

ITO cutting the chassis - its modified class so you can as per the rules on the website:
"4.4 Modified Vehicles
There is no limit to changes or modifications except for the following:
4.4.1
Pneumatic and/or hydraulic suspension types will not be permitted.
4.4.2
Rear wheel steering is not permitted.
4.4.3
Limited slip or locked differentials in the front and/or rear axle will not be permitted.
4.4.4
Vehicles fitted with lockable differentials may compete in these classes provided that the locking facilities are disabled to the satisfaction of the Scrutineers.
4.4.5
The vehicle must have a minimum “cab” width of 1200mm. This size must be maintained for a minimum of 500mm between the 2 axles.
4.4.6
Driver and co-driver must be suitably protected from rotating engine and driveline components well as hot or pressured fluids.
4.4.7
Minimum body panels required are:
a)
Bonnet to cover top of engine,
b)
Area from pedals to back of seat on side of vehicle must be adequately covered to protect the driver and co-driver."

blom · Post by **blom** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:45 pm

i am seriously happy with my lex
move the lex backwards to totally behind the front diff !!!!!!! cut the firewall if needed or relocate the cab !!!
the 8" axles will keep up if you upgrade the birfields to "solid" or bobby longs
keep the drum brakes in the rear as yo will need them for handbrake function "act as lim ited slip"
do not make to short (rear prop at least 400mm long !!! after motor is moved backwards(remember to leave aditional 6 inches for future crawler upgrade)
run a steering rack on the front diff (iveco bus,normal cars 90mm stroke iveco 120mm stroke, get the ackerman angle right, for superior turning ) i think i still have one somewere they are scarse !!!
remove the rubber boddy mounts from the front section(the boddy will last longer) in the rear just use the front mounts and remove the bolts from the rest (allows the chassis to twist/ articulaytion)
ad longer shackles to the front and 14" shocks, weld little plates inside the bumpstops as they sometimes misses and damage the shocks, drill the lex powersteering pump for more volume atr low rpm, bla bla bla bla bla

enjoy !!!!!

Post by **Mud Dog** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:55 pm

Have you also considered the 3RZ (2.7l in line 4 cyl petrol) .... maybe not as gutsy as those above but not toooo far off the mark, it's light and it's almost a bolt on conversion except for mounts, peripherals and radiator ... already EFI .... The motor might be a little pricey but the install could save a few pennies if you're happy with the output, which could also be tweaked a bit I'm sure.

Hoppy · Post by **Hoppy** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:35 pm

Smaller lighter engines is the latest trend, even in the states where V8's used to rule.

I have a complete Twin cam 2l Celica motor in my store wich will fit straight onto your 4spd box and bell housing.

A challenge vehicle shouldn't be to complicated and expensive, readily available parts should be used unless you have a good sponsor.

blom · Post by **blom** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:19 pm

Daar is jou enjin Marc
gryp hom en sit hom in !!!

Uncle hoppy is reg die trend deesdae is die Celica
nee wat oom modderhond die 2.7 sal nie die pyp rook nie

Alouette · Post by **Alouette** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:59 pm

Allan

I will PM you regarding your engine!

I am planning on putting a small spreadsheet together to compare the engines.

Post by **Mud Dog** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:47 pm

blom wrote:Daar is jou enjin Marc
gryp hom en sit hom in !!!

Uncle hoppy is reg die trend deesdae is die Celica
nee wat oom modderhond die 2.7 sal nie die pyp rook nie

Ok, Flower, ..... maar sê my hoekom nie?

.

blom · Post by **blom** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:57 am

we need a "explosion "off power, at hand, throttle response, and at least 150KW with as much as possible torque,
the motor must also be as flat as possible ie square(ease off fitment and enough place for toplinks in the front)
NO CAST IRON (the 2.7 is a tad bit high)
the 100 of wat Kw of the 2.7 is just not good enough, the Celica gives a good rev range and the lex the "brutality off 8 plugs"
the 2.7 has none
both the Celica and Lex gives you some bragging rights and a bit off aaaawwwww
the 2.7 ????? don't think so

Post by **Mud Dog** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:18 am

Haaaw! .... and here I was thinking that the 2.7 was a decent powerplant .... leastways from all acounts I've heard.

I always liked the idea of the Prado 3.4 V6 ..... but it's a bit too thirsty ..... again by all accounts.

blom · Post by **blom** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:22 am

Modder hond
remember that this has got zero to do with a daily driver(where the 2.7 is cool)
marc want a balls to the wall kinda setup, consumption is off no importance and he will most probably tune it like mad as well

Post by **Mud Dog** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:58 am

Ja, see, I'm not competition orientated .... it was just a (poor) suggestion ....

Alouette · Post by **Alouette** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:32 am

Here is the promised spread sheet:
Engine CC Desc kW N.M Weight Price Cost to Man Comments
3GSTE 2 L4-Turbo (ST205) 175 304 130 9500 2500 Direct bolt on to 4spd gearbox
3GSTE 2 L4-Turbo (ST185) 165 270 145 8000 2500 Direct bolt on to 4spd gearbox
1JZ-GE 2.5 L6-N/A 147 250 220 Not Available
1JZ-GTE 2.5 L6-Twin T 210 363 233 6000 4000 Very high power, possible to drop boost pressure,heavy
2JZ-GE 3 L6-N/A 164 290 270 Not Available
3VZ-FE 3 V6-N/A 149 277 220 5500 ? Need to check if FWD or RWD model
5VZ-FE 3.4 V6-N/A 142 298 230 14500 ? Very expensive!
7M-GE 3 L6-N/A 147 258 199 3500 7000 Expensive to fit to 4spd box. Will need head gasket, heavy
1UZ-FE 4 V8-NA 191 353 150 6500 8000 Light, VERY expensive to install

Unfortunately Allan's machine is a carb machine and I need Fuel Injection :-(
I am no closer to making a decision!!! Looks like I'm in for an expensive ride!!
I would seriously consider the Lexus - BUT where can I get a flywheel, bellhousing and cluch for under the quoted R8000!!!! (I think its a bit excessive). Then there is the coil packs etc which I will need more of. So I think the Lex is going out of my price range.
So maybe I should do the nasty cough and get the 3SGTE, and then the installation is not so expensive. Any idea what flywheel would fit the 3SGTE?

blom · Post by **blom** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:43 am

the belhoiusing andflywheel for the lex is under R3000.00 from a engineering company in Vereeniging
no aditional coils is required

try and steer clear from the turbo motors they are a tad bit difficult to "controll" in high traction manouveres

try the one with the charger

do not go for exotic shaait imho lex or celica
forget the budget for now build with vision the truck need to be competitive for at least 4 years,if not you will have to rebuild , wich will cost RRRRR again. BTW if you start building now and finish mabe in feb2010 you will not be competitive in 2010 annyway . seattime dude seattime, one off the most saught after mods ever unfortunately it can't be baught

then you will need at least 2 even 3 events to sort out the "kraampyne"

Alouette · Post by **Alouette** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:58 am

Blom - If I can get the flywheel and bellhousing for that price, the Lex is back in contention. (I think a V8 is great, and at 150kg is a serious option!) I would prefer more cylinders with no turbo! As you said, easier to control.

Could you post or PM me the contact details for the engineering works PLEASE!

I know full well that I wont be compedative next year, not trying to be. BUT I need to be in the dust learning otherwise I'll never get there! I know I have to choose the right engine - I ONLY have one chance there!

blom · Post by **blom** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:14 am

phone a dude Martinus
0733674733
he wil be able to help with b housing and FW

Post by **Mammabeer** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:25 am

Alouette wrote:Blom - If I can get the flywheel and bellhousing for that price, the Lex is back in contention. (I think a V8 is great, and at 150kg is a serious option!) I would prefer more cylinders with no turbo! As you said, easier to control.

Could you post or PM me the contact details for the engineering works PLEASE!

I know full well that I wont be compedative next year, not trying to be. BUT I need to be in the dust learning otherwise I'll never get there! I know I have to choose the right engine - I ONLY have one chance there!

But you will still have enough time to get some learning experiences from the real masters in Extreme 4x4....The Rebels....we have ample events for a learning curve for you.....

*cough* Blom*cough*....you know my address for the choccies......

ToyX4 · Post by **ToyX4** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:28 am

Mud Dog wrote:Haaaw! .... and here I was thinking that the 2.7 was a decent powerplant .... leastways from all acounts I've heard. I always liked the idea of the Prado 3.4 V6 ..... but it's a bit too thirsty ..... again by all accounts.

Andy, the 2.7 is a very good engine, but not for this application.

blom · Post by **blom** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:34 pm

MB as die dude eers saam ons gery het sal hy nie die national manne wil join nie !!!

Post by **Mammabeer** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:40 pm

blom wrote:MB as die dude eers saam ons gery het sal hy nie die national manne wil join nie !!!

Tipies man.....ek was met subliminal messaging besig om hom te oortuig.....en wou die choccies by die beheerraad van die Rebels he vir my poging.....

:roll:

Post by **merwn** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:48 pm

Hallo Marc

Het jy al 'n motor gekry.Ek het vir you twee opsies

1) Ek kan vir jou 'n 7m motor compleet met belhousing en computer box(OEM)
sal more weet vir hoeveel(Die ou het Lexus motor in gesit)
2) Lexus compleet met auto ratkas vir R 6500.00 en daar is 'n plek wat dit fly wheel met clutch op maak vir die handrat en lexus in Johannesburg en dink dit was so om en by R5500

Alouette · Post by **Alouette** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:39 am

Nick
Laat weet asb as jy 'n prys het vir die 7M
Die prys vir die lexus klink reg - Ek het kontak gemaak met 'n Ou in Vereenigning wat 'n lexus bellhousing en flywheel vir R4000 verkoop - ek moet hom dan net 'n pressureplate gee wat hy voor gate kan maak. Hy die die Cresida 3l se pressureplate voorgestel, maar ek het gedink die 2.7 sal ook werk?

Post by **merwn** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:29 am

Ek was gister aand by hom het gese as hy R6000 kry kan hy gaan jy kry alles vir die conversion mountings ,airflow meter,computer,belhousing ek sou hom gevat het maar het toe feul injection vir my 2.4 (22R) motor gekry.PM my jou nommer as jy belang stel dan kan ons relings tref dat jy die motor kan kom sien

DOELLOOS · Post by **DOELLOOS** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:58 am

Onthou net dat die 7M enjins nooit vir 4x4 gebou is nie, en dat die oil pickup in die sump nie ontwerp was vir die angles waarteen jy gaan ry nie. My voorstel is dat jy die sump afhaal en die regte plan daar maak sodat jou olie toevoer altyd konstant bly, self teen 110 gradiente... :wth:

My 7MGTE het met 'n Kometic race head gasket gery, hy is herbruikbaar, en werk soos 'n bom...net duur.

My voorstel is dat jy hierdie winskoop vat en hom geniet...

Alouette · Post by **Alouette** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:39 am

Thank you all for your input.
I have decided to go with the 3S-GTE as it seems to be the most suitable engine.

The hilux has been stripped and I am allmost finished shortening the chassis.

DOELLOOS · Post by **DOELLOOS** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:42 am

Cassie gaan wil foto's sien...

Alouette · Post by **Alouette** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:03 pm

Ek neem fotos - maar is haastig om die werk klaar te kry - sal pos so go moontlik!