"Bolt-on" recovry points

WayneSchalk · Post by **WayneSchalk** » Mon May 13, 2013 12:52 pm

Where can I find a supplier of "bolt-on" recovery points like the ones in the picture below?

Post by **Mud Dog** » Mon May 13, 2013 4:11 pm

I don't particularly like those units and seriously doubt that they would be acceptable for any competitive event. The first issue is that they have a transverse base (as opposed to a linear base - in line with the chassis rail that they would normally be attached to), so where does one attach them ... bumpers are normally no good for this purpose except for properly constructed and secured integrated bumpers (which normally have recovery points built in already).

Then, even if you have a suitable transverse surface on which to mount it, there is the issue of the recovery angle. Straight would provide the optimum strength for the unit but straight is not always possible or even desired. So what happens if you recover at an angle off the perpendicular? ..... a lot of extra force is exerted on the base plate which could bend / crack / snap off .... additionally, even if the base held, that extra force would be shifted to the two furthest anchor bolts. So now instead of the force being spread evenly across 4 bolts, it's biased to one side and there is a greater risk of those two bolts carrying most of the load, to shear / snap (once they go the remaining two will pop like twigs). The size of those anchor bolts in the pics look very small as well.

Long story short, I wouldn't trust it for recovery purposes.

Cleaner · Post by **Cleaner** » Mon May 13, 2013 4:24 pm

What is the opinion on these?

Just for interest sake. Looks like a gimmick to me and you will only have 1 recovery point. Better than none I suppose.

Sent from my refrigerator using the ice-dispencer

JEEPIE · Post by **JEEPIE** » Mon May 13, 2013 4:33 pm

Cleaner wrote:What is the opinion on these?

uploadfromtaptalk1368455018908.jpg
Just for interest sake. Looks like a gimmick to me and you will only have 1 recovery point. Better than none I suppose.

Sent from my refrigerator using the ice-dispencer

the hooks are supposedly rated
the towbar attachment , well i wouldnt recover with that

Bushwacker · Post by **Bushwacker** » Mon May 13, 2013 4:42 pm

Cleaner wrote:What is the opinion on these?

uploadfromtaptalk1368455018908.jpg
Just for interest sake. Looks like a gimmick to me and you will only have 1 recovery point. Better than none I suppose.

Sent from my refrigerator using the ice-dispencer

Daai afrikaanse taalgebruik skrik my al klaar af. Klink soos 'n program op kyknet

Cleaner · Post by **Cleaner** » Mon May 13, 2013 4:49 pm

Bushwacker wrote:
Daai afrikaanse taalgebruik skrik my al klaar af. Klink soos 'n program op kyknet

Ek moes self twee keer lees, klaar lag en toe weer lees.

Sent from my fridge using the toaster

Post by **Haboob** » Mon May 13, 2013 7:31 pm

Sent from my refrigerator using the ice-dispencer

ThysdJ · Post by **ThysdJ** » Tue May 14, 2013 8:22 am

The "ontkoppelingstaaf met boogskakel" is better than nothing especially on Fortuners where it is near to impossible to fit any other kind of recovery point without cutting bumpers or bodywork.

I also have those recovery points on my Jeep, and spoke to some guys about them to find out if they would be okay for snatch/kinetic recoveries. These experts recon they are okay. Open hook type recovery points are still better, because they remove shackles from the recovery setup, but they only bolt on with 2 bolts, which are also prone to sheering when used at extreme angles.

The only time the mounting bolts on recovery point will bend or twist off is when they are loose. Just remember to re-torque your recovery points after each recovery..

Sent from my desk using my secretary..

WayneSchalk · Post by **WayneSchalk** » Tue May 14, 2013 8:41 am

I might add to always use rated shackles, ropes, bridals, kinetic straps and off course rated HT bolts and nuts.

But where to buy these recovery points

I am building a rear bumper and want to fit these, this is my 2nd go at a bumper for the rear and want to change to these instead of drilling a hole in the plate coming off the chassis as I am sure it is much stronger this way.

Stubs · Post by **Stubs** » Tue May 14, 2013 8:52 am

I personally would mount those rear recovery points vertically, allowing the shackle to move from side to side and keeping the rope central in the shackle, as they are now if you are not performing a direct straight tow/snatch then the rope will move inside the shackle,

Stef · Post by **Stef** » Tue May 14, 2013 9:00 am

Personally I'm not a fan of the hooks, but the more experienced okes swear by them. I also like bow shackles; Here's the link of how I did mine... ORRU guys at the RDW family fun day were more than chuffed with them, so drill into the plate

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=12595&hilit=recovery+points

ThysdJ · Post by **ThysdJ** » Tue May 14, 2013 9:27 am

Here's where you can buy them.. but they are not cheap.. :wth: :wth: :wth:

http://www.northridge4x4.co.za/shop/ter ... ir-4803300" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **CasKru** » Tue May 14, 2013 9:31 am

Keep in mind that the lesser metal objects you use in the recovery the safer it is. In other words if you have the hooks, it's only the hooks and the strap / Rope. Now if you have a recovery point like above, you have to fit a shackle... another hard object. So now you have more metal objects that can become projectiles.

WayneSchalk · Post by **WayneSchalk** » Tue May 14, 2013 9:32 am

ThysdJ wrote:Here's where you can buy them.. but they are not cheap.. :wth: :wth: :wth:

http://www.northridge4x4.co.za/shop/ter ... ir-4803300" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Shoe

Ok so I will be drilling holes :wth:

JEEPIE · Post by **JEEPIE** » Tue May 14, 2013 9:36 am

Stubs wrote:I personally would mount those rear recovery points vertically, allowing the shackle to move from side to side and keeping the rope central in the shackle, as they are now if you are not performing a direct straight tow/snatch then the rope will move inside the shackle,

+1

JEEPIE · Post by **JEEPIE** » Tue May 14, 2013 9:38 am

Stef wrote:Personally I'm not a fan of the hooks, but the more experienced okes swear by them. I also like bow shackles; Here's the link of how I did mine... ORRU guys at the RDW family fun day were more than chuffed with them, so drill into the plate

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=12595&hilit=recovery+points

i had a argument about recovery popints with a instructer one day
this whole rated recovery point thing just didnt make sense
but they have their standard and thats now the rules.

Stef · Post by **Stef** » Tue May 14, 2013 10:01 am

JEEPIE wrote:i had a argument about recovery popints with a instructer one day
this whole rated recovery point thing just didnt make sense
but they have their standard and thats now the rules.

I hear ya, it's only as rated as the mounting bolts...but I think the ORRU guys were pretty reasonable @ RDW.

Common sense tells me the an entire bumper & winch will not become much a projectile even if all 6 rated bolts come undone, and you'll have to really make an effort to shear 2x 4.5 ton shackles

ThysdJ · Post by **ThysdJ** » Tue May 14, 2013 10:32 am

The big thing about weight rating on recovery points and equipment is so that you can determine where the weakest point(s) in your recovery setup is, and deploy countermeasures at that point to prevent damage or injury. Dealing with a whole lot of unknowns makes for unsafe recoveries.

Spreading the load reduces the impact/shock/force over a bigger area and more high tensile steel bolts. The chances of all the bolts on all the recovery points failing at once are slim.

Please dont use gutter bolts.

Boertjie · Post by **Boertjie** » Mon May 20, 2013 2:22 pm

As a ORRU Member a few notes on recovery points:

Those hooks are TROUBLE, even the rated ones as they are only rated at 10,000 lbs which is about 4,5 metric tons and way below spec, especially as users tend to recover on just one hook rather than a bridle and two hooks....

These inserts, if made well, are fine for recovery and will be better/ stronger on a well made towbar than any other home improvised recovery point at the back somewhere...

The idea of drilling a suitable hole on the two drop plates on the back tow bar of a Hilux (where the plates attach to the chassis) is still a good idea and as long as the two or three bolts holding the plate to the chassis are High Tensile (8.8) then, that plate is going nowhere. If you then beef up the hole with the spacers that is also OK.

Stef · Post by **Stef** » Mon May 20, 2013 3:51 pm

Boertjie wrote:As a ORRU Member a few notes on recovery points:

Those hooks are TROUBLE, even the rated ones as they are only rated at 10,000 lbs which is about 4,5 metric tons and way below spec, especially as users tend to recover on just one hook rather than a bridle and two hooks....

These inserts, if made well, are fine for recovery and will be better/ stronger on a well made towbar than any other home improvised recovery point at the back somewhere...

The idea of drilling a suitable hole on the two drop plates on the back tow bar of a Hilux (where the plates attach to the chassis) is still a good idea and as long as the two or three bolts holding the plate to the chassis are High Tensile (8.8) then, that plate is going nowhere. If you then beef up the hole with the spacers that is also OK.

Ja see...told you okes!

Tx for the info Boertjie

Juan21 · Post by **Juan21** » Mon May 20, 2013 7:40 pm

WTH.... Lol, people on this form crack me up :-)

Sent from my refrigerator using the ice-dispencer
Sent from my fridge using the toaster
Sent from my desk using my secretary..

Thunder02 · Post by **Thunder02** » Mon May 20, 2013 7:51 pm

Juan21 wrote:WTH.... Lol, people on this form crack me up :-)

Sent from my refrigerator using the ice-dispencer
Sent from my fridge using the toaster
Sent from my desk using my secretary..

Why

How are you doing your posts?

Sent from my hilux using the dip stick

Post by **Mud Dog** » Mon May 20, 2013 9:40 pm

Still waiting to see the one that says "Sent from my PC using my neighbour's WiFi connection."

Hoppy · Post by **Hoppy** » Mon May 20, 2013 9:45 pm

The 4 bolt ones are the "Military type", they are very strong and can be snatched on if mounted correctly
Every type of recovery hook has it's advantages / disadvantages, forget about ratings, ratings depends on who rated it, a 10 ton SABS rating will get a 30 ton rating in Taiwan. Use common sense and choose the right one for your vehicle.

sent from my keyboard using one finger

Stef · Post by **Stef** » Mon May 20, 2013 10:54 pm

Mud Dog wrote:Still waiting to see the one that says "Sent from my PC using my neighbour's WiFi connection."

Problem is that the neighbour is probably also a forum member

So you'll only be able to say it once LOL

No touch screens were cursed at/ abused during the typing of this post.

PS the neighbour's connection is too slow anayway

Stef · Post by **Stef** » Mon May 20, 2013 10:57 pm

Hoppy wrote:Every type of recovery hook has it's advantages / disadvantages, forget about ratings, ratings depends on who rated it, a 10 ton SABS rating will get a 30 ton rating in Taiwan. Use common sense and choose the right one for your vehicle.

sent from my keyboard using one finger

Also true

Post by **Mud Dog** » Tue May 21, 2013 12:27 am

Stef wrote:
Mud Dog wrote:Still waiting to see the one that says "Sent from my PC using my neighbour's WiFi connection."

Problem is that the neighbour is probably also a forum member So you'll only be able to say it once LOL

No touch screens were cursed at/ abused during the typing of this post.

PS the neighbour's connection is too slow anayway

And you know this how?

MOFASA · Post by **MOFASA** » Tue May 21, 2013 7:40 am

ThysdJ wrote:Here's where you can buy them.. but they are not cheap.. :wth: :wth: :wth:

http://www.northridge4x4.co.za/shop/ter ... ir-4803300" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Would it be possible to make these out of MILD STEEL or should it be made out of EN8 or EN19

I will do a costing on these and see if we can get some made and sold here cheaper then those.....

Sent from my oil heater using the work router.

Post by **CasKru** » Tue May 21, 2013 8:07 am

Keep in mind that the piece sticking out from the back plate is bevelled so even if the welding fails, the bevel will keep it in place

Post by **Mud Dog** » Tue May 21, 2013 8:33 am

CasKru wrote:Keep in mind that the piece sticking out from the back plate is bevelled so even if the welding fails, the bevel will keep it in place

To me it looks like the "bevelled" section is the actual weld.

Post by **CasKru** » Tue May 21, 2013 8:48 am

Mud Dog wrote:
CasKru wrote:Keep in mind that the piece sticking out from the back plate is bevelled so even if the welding fails, the bevel will keep it in place
To me it looks like the "bevelled" section is the actual weld.

Made a quick drawing so you can understand what I'm saying... (not to scale or anything... just the concept)

Recovery2.JPG: (31.68 KiB) Downloaded 262 times

Recovery4.JPG: (35 KiB) Downloaded 262 times

ThysdJ · Post by **ThysdJ** » Tue May 21, 2013 8:53 am

Cassie you forgot to mention that you sent that from your Albert using your Einstein!!!

Stef · Post by **Stef** » Tue May 21, 2013 8:55 am

Mud Dog wrote:[And you know this how?

'cause I had to fix it on a few occasions

MOFASA · Post by **MOFASA** » Tue May 21, 2013 9:02 am

I was thinking of this...

Machined from a solid block... NO WELDING....

It may be expensive but cant see it costing the same as those ones.....
Will do a costing to see if im right....

Post by **Mud Dog** » Tue May 21, 2013 8:59 pm

CasKru wrote:
Mud Dog wrote:
CasKru wrote:Keep in mind that the piece sticking out from the back plate is bevelled so even if the welding fails, the bevel will keep it in place
To me it looks like the "bevelled" section is the actual weld.
Made a quick drawing so you can understand what I'm saying... (not to scale or anything... just the concept)

I understood that Cassie, and thought that's what you meant, but I don't see anything on the pic to suggest they're made this way. If they are, it may well make them stronger, but to my mind there's still the issue of the 4 small mounting bolts. If the backing plate were bigger and there were 4 bolts on each side or the existing four bolts were thicker I would be more accepting of the concept. Perhaps I'm just being overly critical, but to my mind it's still safety that matters in the final analysis.

MonsterLux · Post by **MonsterLux** » Wed May 22, 2013 10:49 am

Some good info I came across for me at least the pdf files in link bellow.
http://www.ccvc.org.nz/index.php/ccvc/T ... d-On-Trips" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For interest sake for those that don't know what 4.6 or 8.8 on a bolt head stands for.
The first number represents the ultimate tensile strength of the bolt 400KPa or 800KPa respectively. The second number represents the point at which the bolt will permanently stretch. ( officially, the 0.2% proof load stress). A 4.6 bolt permanently stretches at 60% of its ultimate, and 8.8 at 80%.
All stresses is tensile. For shear One use 0.5/0.6 of tensile I prevere 0.5 for greater safety factor.
Using formula. STRESS = FORCE /AREA. f = F / A
A = pi x D square / 4

F = fs x A. ( fs - shear. ft - tensile)
F = 320000000 x pi x 0.012 squared / 4
F = 36190 N
F = 3,619 tons / 2.5 safety factor
F = 1,447 tons

SWL on three M12 8.8 bolts would then be 4,342 tons
fs is worked on 80% yield on 800 KPa which is 640 KPa and then 0.5 of that to get shear which is 320 KPa.

That's why they recomend using minimum three M12 8.8 bolts in attachment above

Just m2c

Johan

Post by **CasKru** » Wed May 22, 2013 11:37 am

Thanks for that info Johan... at least 3 M12 8.8 bolts it is then

Post by **JohanM** » Wed May 22, 2013 11:57 am

My Rear points are attached with 5x 12mm 8.8 bolts.

Post by **CasKru** » Wed May 22, 2013 12:07 pm

En jou bakkie sin?

Post by **JohanM** » Wed May 22, 2013 12:18 pm

CasKru wrote:En jou bakkie sin?

Ek en my Hilux is een!!! Het nie n bakkie nie. Honde drink en eet uit n bakkie!!!

MonsterLux · Post by **MonsterLux** » Wed May 22, 2013 12:31 pm

CasKru wrote:Thanks for that info Johan... at least 3 M12 8.8 bolts it is then

Pleasure. Just tried to add a bit of figures so that one can get a feeling of what the bolts can do. They are most of the time the weakest link in the whole recovery train. Then people tent to blame the shackles or hooks when they become projectiles.

WayneSchalk · Post by **WayneSchalk** » Wed May 22, 2013 3:42 pm

So on the topic of recovery points, I am going to cut a couple of these. don't know who's pic this is. what would you recon is a good thickness? 12mm? and what material, SS or mild steel

MOFASA · Post by **MOFASA** » Wed May 22, 2013 4:21 pm

WayneSchalk wrote:So on the topic of recovery points, I am going to cut a couple of these. don't know who's pic this is. what would you recon is a good thickness? 12mm? and what material, SS or mild steel

Mild steel is more than strond enough... 8 to 10mm with a bush welded into it should be fine

Post by **Mud Dog** » Wed May 22, 2013 4:59 pm

Mild steel is better than stainless for this IMO. Stainless is hard but it is also more brittle, especially if it fatigues, then it snaps without warning.

MonsterLux · Post by **MonsterLux** » Wed May 22, 2013 8:35 pm

Do not use normal mild steel make sure you use at least a SABS 1431 GR350 WA. Normal mild steel has a UTS of 100KPa where 350 wa has a UTS of 350KPa. Do not go thinner than 12mm. Then make sure the vertical distance from the edge of the hole to the edge of the plate is not less than 20mm top and bottom and the horizontal distance from the edge of the hole to the edge of the plate not to be less than 40mm (the direction you going to pull in). Using the above works out on 5 tons SWL.

MonsterLux · Post by **MonsterLux** » Wed May 22, 2013 8:40 pm

If you are going to cut the plates as per sample in the photo make sure the vertical and horizontal sizes from edge of hole to edge of plate not to be less than 40 mm