Engine cutting out

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Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

Hello All,

Have an issue lately where the engine just cuts out momentarily while driving and then suddenly comes back...almost as if one would turn off the ignition and switch back on.
It once died where I had to switch everything off and wait a few minutes before it would start again.

I know it is not the immobilizer as I could crank the engine, but it is as if there is either no spark or no fuel so it just cranks.
Fuel pump is running and no issues up to fuel rail
Replaced the ignition coil
Checked all connections to the TP100 and optic trigger in the dizzy; also went through the distributor cap and cleaned everything.

To me it sounds like it is either the Dicktator itself or the optic trigger or the igniter; haven't checked yet if there is any log entries in the ECU that could shed some light.

Any experts with ideas?
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Mud Dog »

You wrote:To me it sounds like it is either the Dicktator itself or the optic trigger or the igniter; haven't checked yet if there is any log entries in the ECU that could shed some light.
No expert, but it sounds like you are on the right track here. Although these units don't just fail that easily and even less likely intermittently, it's not impossible - however I would check the relevant electrical connections first as I suspect that's a more probable cause for the fault.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Mars »

I'm no expert but in my experience intermittent problems like this are very hard to troubleshoot. When it happens again you must try and see if the problem is spark or fuel related.

I have stated this before but it has been my experience that many electrical faults on vehicles are "mechanically" related. i.e. weak contacts, dry solder joints, loose cables, corroded connectors etc. where the mechanical connection is somehow compromised. Always start with the basics and check the physical condition of the wiring etc. although it seems as if you have done that already.

Good luck and I hope you find it soon.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by LouisZ »

Kyk in die dizzy cap. Haal hom af heeltemal.

Myne se eletrodes was lekker aangepak, 1ste keer toe ek gekyk het was dit laat middag en ek dink ek het dit toe gemis.

Maak hulle skoon totdat daar geen aanpaksel meer is nie dan sal dit al klaar help.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Hilux.e.cape »

Remindes me of my ole isuzu 250d..... was the earth cable from the motor to the body or battery. Tightened bolt on the motor and all sorted..... think my tiburon done the same.... good luck

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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

LouisZ wrote: Wed May 03, 2017 4:16 pm Kyk in die dizzy cap. Haal hom af heeltemal.

Myne se eletrodes was lekker aangepak, 1ste keer toe ek gekyk het was dit laat middag en ek dink ek het dit toe gemis.

Maak hulle skoon totdat daar geen aanpaksel meer is nie dan sal dit al klaar help.
Het dit sommer gedoen toe ek die coil geruil het Sondag
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

Mars wrote: Wed May 03, 2017 10:23 am I'm no expert but in my experience intermittent problems like this are very hard to troubleshoot. When it happens again you must try and see if the problem is spark or fuel related.
That's just the thing...the symptoms are so momentary that that one can't check whether it's fuel or spark. Although the fuel pump was running fine that one time it was dead for a few minutes which directs my suspicions towards spark.

Could also be something as stupid as a 12V sensing line that causes the ECU to shutdown the outputs momentarily.
I have a good mind to get a new harness and just rewire everything; if one could find the injector pins/plugs. The igniter connections were all done with new AMP connectors to eliminate solder joints
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by LouisZ »

Net 'n vraag. Het jy al jou ignition switch vervang?

As jou sleutel kan uitkom terwyl die engin loop dan is die barrel en switch uitgewerk. Daai kan sports maak. :shock2:
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

nee, maar die sleutel kan uit. Sal toets met die spaar sleutel om te sien of hy kan uit trek
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by The Legend »

Stef Jy kry daardie ignition barrel met sleutel te koop by Gemini wat presies soos die oorpronklike Toyota een lyk.Sy partnr is 59057-LN57

Stef ek gaan nou n klip in die bos gooi.Vervang jou Dictator se relay met n nuwe een en kyk of dit nie jou probleem is nie.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

Tx Dawie, die relay socket is ook 'n algemene probleem; is op my "checklist"
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

Definitely not the ignition switch...the actual switch part is separate from the key barrel so whether the key/barrel is worn is irrelevant.
Checked the switch contacts & they are as clean as a whistle.

Remove the white cover to access the contacts...ring setup similar to the steering column switches
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

Might have found the problem...

Been driving with the ECU out in the open where I could monitor the LED's to see if there might be any indication as to which direction I should focus. As it turned out I had another cut out and I could clearly see that the orange and green LED's were completely dead when cranking the motor. The red LED stayed on, did not even blink, clear indication to stop looking on the 12V supply side of the system.

Found an old Benhur post describing the LED functions (as the Dictator manual didn't make any mention); orange means trigger signal is coming in from the dizzy and green means that the ECU is sending signals out to fire the injectors, igniter and enable the fuel pump.
Thus I marked & removed the dizzy completely to properly inspect it it & saw that the business end of the optic was dirty. Washed it out with a non caustic nano tech solution and a cotton bud, dried it out with SWAMBO's hair dryer and reassembled.

Before finally fitting the dizzy, I ran a little test. Plugged the optic back in, switched the ignition on and rotated the dizzy by hand. As I started rotating the shaft, the fuel pump kicked in and the injectors started firing (and they are surprisingly quiet) with the orange & green LED's flashing accordingly. Stop rotating the shaft and the orange & green LED's are dead.

Hopefully that is now the end of it. I have a handful of similar optics in my electronics stash so I'm going to make up a spare unit to throw in the cubby.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Mud Dog »

That would almost definitely have been the problem. Glad you found it!
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Mars »

I certainly hope this resolves the issue. As stated before I have often found that these mystery "electrical" faults have a mechanical cause. Thank you for the feedback.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Mud Dog »

Just as a matter of interest ..... when we did mine we opted for a magnetic sensor for the trigger pulse because they are the least problematic. So we modified the dizzy and right from the get go we had a problem with a dirty signal - the motor ran fine at revs but would miss a beat every now and then under 2000rpm. We had used shielded cable throughout and so suspected that the dizzy was the cause of it. So we added resistors to the trigger cable to the ECU until the signal cleaned up and all was fine except that there was a problem with cold starting. Sometimes it would fire up immediately but other times it would need a lot of cranking and if the battery was low it wouldn't fire up at all. After checking all we could think of we eventually checked the ICU and found a similar problem to the one you discovered - no trigger pulse. We removed a couple of the resistors from the trigger cable and the pulse was back but dirty again. We decided that either we modify a Golf dizzy which we knew worked well or we discard the dizzy pick-up and put a pick up on the crank. We did the latter, having a trigger plate machined up to fit on the rear crank pulley (the front ones have a rubber damper vulcanised into them so we couldn't use those because of the vibrations).

After all that effort and setting everything up again to the new trigger, we still had the same problem and were now scratching our heads much better, even tried re-routing the cable to eliminate interference even though it was shielded. Re-connected to the dizzy again (everything was still there) - same problem. Then we decided to replace the shielded cable to the ECU with one that's used in Hi-Fi sound applications (also shielded). Walla! Clean, strong signal!

So ja, it seems like one of the first things to check is that the ECU is getting a clean, constant trigger pulse.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

Eish...that is super annoying; funny how it almost always is the thing you least suspect.


I got the optic as part of the entire setup and at the time thought it to be better than the magnetic pickup, simply because it worked flawlessly with the TP100 and did not require having that extra little box wired in between i.e fewer connections. Never thought about the dirt being an issue as the optic is buried nicely in the dizzy; having said that I fitted it as is 5 years ago and just ran it. Thus not really a frequent maintenance item.

Off Topic - From an electronic point of view I prefer optic over magnetic; the latter normally employs a Hall Effect Transistor in conjunction with a ferrite type core and is finicky wrt differentiating between a trigger and just magnetic field variances as far as the circuitry is concerned, but works well once you've got the recipe. The quality of the circuitry will determine the quality/stability of the output signal

With infrared light it is either there or not, the challenge normally is the wide beam angle which is sorted with a narrow slot in the housing. The receiving end is usually a NPN transistor in an open collector config so one is really just switching a supply voltage, it could easily be incorporated it into any circuit without additional components.

Of course it depends on the application; for example, optic pickup is more suited to applications where multiple pulses per rotation is required and where there is little room for magnets. By varying the slots in a rotating disc one could also generate different pulse widths more accurately
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

Problem still persists....wired a led straight onto the optic sensor output so I can see whether it is the optic or the dicktator messing around. Personally I think it is the latter so I'm looking at Spitronics models & prices

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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Mud Dog »

There's no doubt that you know more about electronics than me, so this may be a little too obvious, yet sometimes the best of us don't "see the forest for the trees".

What I'm thinking - if it was an electronic component failure it would almost always be constant (unless a resistor or something such like is becoming weak and loosing it's value). So I'm more inclined to suspect a poor connection somewhere, either a corroded connector socket / pin or a dry joint in solder somewhere, maybe even on the ECU pc board. Maybe a wire got 'hurt' and has a break in it. Have you tried running replacement cables to and from the optic? Does it take it's "earth" from the ECU or is is grounded at the dizzy, and if so is it a good earthing?

You might replace the ECU only to find that the problem still persists. :think:
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by The Legend »

Stef het jy jou Dictator se relay al vervang en gekyk of die probleemn ie daar is nie?
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

Was kinda my thinking as well....component failure should be permanent not intermittent; what I find strange is that it comes right after it has been left off for a while.
Wiggled every wire & plug while the engine was running; haven't tried a replacement wire yet (new harness is R380 so contemplating it)
Checked the circuit board as well, nothing obvious there.
The optic gets its 12V & ground from the TP100, output then goes directly to the ECU. The wires from the TP100 are crimped directly in the AMP connector

The extra LED is now wired between the 12V line & the output line; the ECU pulls that line to a TTL low, so with the ECU powered up the test led will be on but dim, and start flashing between dim & bright as the engine is cranked.
Thus if it cuts out again and the led is completely dead, the input to the ECU is dead or there is no 12V from the TP100; if it flashes between off & bright while engine is cranking it means that the optic and the TP100 has power & is triggering, thus confirming the ECU is not seeing the input.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Mud Dog »

Let us know what you find. :winkx:
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Family_Dog »

I had something similar happen at high revs with Bulldog when we did the EFI conversion. Intermittent, only at high revs and fine at normal revs. Turned out to be a loose connector in the plug wires from the distributor. Recrimped, problem solved.


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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Borntofish »

Mine did the same thing and I found the plug on the distributor had a loose connection. Never did it again.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by LouisZ »

Bring hom bietjie verby eendag by my. Wil bietjie 'n log maak van die Ecu. Op Rudi sin was dit ou drade wat op die Altenator was wat sy enjin laat uitsny het.

Kon dit duidelik op die log op die Ecu sien
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

LouisZ wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:35 pm Bring hom bietjie verby eendag by my. Wil bietjie 'n log maak van die Ecu. Op Rudi sin was dit ou drade wat op die Altenator was wat sy enjin laat uitsny het.

Kon dit duidelik op die log op die Ecu sien
As ek daar kan uitkom... vandag elke 200m gaan staan

Hoe maak jy die logs? Ek het sagteware en die kabel ma kry nie die logs gesave nie
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

Ok so when it died again tonight about 3 times on the way to the local Spar which is less than a km away, I noticed on my test LED that I wired in that there is 12V on the sensor, There is a TTL low from the ECU trigger input (in other words the connections are fine) and the led flashes when I crank the engine, but there is nothing on the Dicktator, amber led dead as a door nail.

But the pulses on the test led are a bit faint,not as distinct as during normal operation; it is as if the sensor is battling to pull the line to a proper low during a trigger. I'm convinced that input IC ( a hex buffer with logic level conversion) on the ECU is on its way out
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

Could it perhaps be the battery that is on its way out?

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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by LouisZ »

Stef die Dicktator hou nie van 'n pap battery of enige spikes wat die battery of altenator kan gee nie. As die volts onder 10. 8 volt gaan dan sny alles uit. As jy 'n hoe spike van die altenator kry dan dan sny alles ook uit.

As joune gewire is met die mag adaptor op 'n over voltage spike dan gaan die mag adaptor. ( in lyn met die groen signal draad en swart draad van die ecu af)

Wat is die volts as jy idle, terwyl jy ry? Kyk bietjie verder dan. Skakel die ligte aan, die aircon as jy het, radio, dan gebruik die flikkerlig. Kyk of jy 'n voltage drop het. As jy het is dit of Battery, Voltage regulator of die altenator.

Enige over voltage is altenator.

Dan, is die drade van die altenator na die battery te oud? Kyk vir weerstand. Kyk na enige plug veral die ene by die altenator. Ek dink is die wit draad. Die ding raak maar oud en gee nie die regte charge na die battery toe nie.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

Hi Louis, omtrent so 14.2V op idle, maar dan het die batt oornag gelaai op die Benton.
Gister die NL solenoid uitgebrug en die clamp op die hoof batt + los gemaak en geisoleer. Hele ent gery met 2de batt sonder probleme...tot ek die ligte aangeskakel het, toe elke 200m gaan staan....Alhoewel die rooi LED nog steeds aan is op die Dicktator is daar geen trigger pulse nie behalwe op my toest LED.

Laaste ruk as hy uitsny kan jy die starter dalk so 3 kere karring vor die batt heeltemal pap is; hazards maak hom gou gou mooi pap. Vanoggend weer so ent gaan ry, NL voltage indicator wys hom mooi groen tot heel bo maar gaan geleidelik af soos ek ry. Die battery is verseker besig om sy dinges te sien.

Gaan die week kyk vir 'n nuwe batt, sommer groter gaan as 60Ah. Wil die earth vd batt engine toe ook vervang en sommer loop na die head toe waar die ignitor se earth is. Gaan die alternator kabel vervang en die winch se kabel ook oor krimp terwyl ek besig is..daai hele spul daar op die + pool irriteer my al lankal.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Mud Dog »

Klink belowend dat jy nou op die regte pad is om die probleem op te los. :thumbup:
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

I sincerely hope it is that although it would still not explain only the signal disappearing unless the batt has an internal short somewhere.Will have to put an oscilloscope on that trigger line with a new batt fitted

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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by The Legend »

Stef hulle verkoop hier by ons n 80A battery vir die SFA met n 2 jaar waarborg.Buiten die krag draad wat deur die harnas loop na die alternator toe,het ek n 16mm draad direk van die battery alternator toe gevat.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

Tx oom Dawie...het vmiddag n 70Ah gekry vir R1490.
Sover nog nie gevrek ni...hoop maar dit was die fout

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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by The Legend »

Ek is bly vir jou part Stef. Dit is die laaste plek waaar ek vir n fout sou gaan soek het.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by LouisZ »

Mooi man.

Ek het al dit so 3 keer al gehad. een was over voltage van die Altenator, een was battery oppad uit en die laaste was ou drade tussen altenator na die battery wat hoe weerstand gehad het.

Ook ure op ander plekke gesoek. Dan skop dit eers in, "basics 1s"t :dash:

Kom verby een of ander tyd dan wys ek waar jy die log op die ecu kan opneem. :thumbup:
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

Made it from pta to OR Tambo without cutting out

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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by The Legend »

:thumbup:
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

Sal sien of ek kan terug kom.... :D:
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Mud Dog »

Sounds promising. :winkx:
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Mars »

Nee wat dit lyk my jy het hom nou!!!
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

OK....so the problem persists, but not as bad as before. A failing battery just highlighted an underlying problem.
What still gets me is the trigger line that doesn't go lower than 8V ....thus a slightly flat batt will reduce the signal amplitude.

Checked all ground connections, wiring etc. In my mind it is either the optic or the ECU. Thinking of converting to magnetic if a replacement optic is not readily available

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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

Right .....completely rebuilt the dizzy with a brand new optic...and it cut out 4 times again tonight.
So I guess optic triggers are not as unreliable as most people think as the old one was still fine...that basically leaves the ECU...maybe not as reliable as most believe?

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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Mud Dog »

Do you know anyone with a spare dictator ECU that you could use to check if it is in fact the ECU? If you need to replace the ECU I would go for Spitronics at this point - Dictator have just fallen back too far IRO development.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

I've been told the same thing 5 years ago....maybe its time...I'd rather replace with Sptronics than deal with Dicktator's poor after sales service.

MRD racing here in Pta offered to test it for me, so fortunately I won't have to go to Dicktator themselves, maybe they have a loan unit I could use to test in the bakkie.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by The Legend »

Ai Stef dit is maar n gemoers om so te sukkel met n ding. Jammer jou Dictator gee jou soveel probleme. Myne is al 7 jaar in en ek het nog nie n dag se moeilikheid nie.

Ongelukkig is dit nou maar so dat Dictator se na verkoop diens van die swakste is wat jy kan kry. Hoop jy kan hom reg kry.

Ken glad nie Spittronics nie. Weet net hy is n meer ingewikkelde stelsel maar hy het ook meer verstellings wat jy kan doen.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

Pra' jy oom Dawie, ek is nou al so g@tvol dis nie eers meer snaaks nie...
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by LouisZ »

Stef.

Kom na my toe as jy kans het. Ons sit myne in en kyk wat gebeur.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

Tx Louis, sal kyk hoe loop my week

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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by WCKD »

Had the same problem with my Dicktator. Used to cut when I'm at a robot or low revs. Then I had to wait about 20-30 seconds with the power of to get it going again.

After trying almost everything I chuked the Dicktator for a Spitronics unit. Didn't even take it for a dyno again just copied the maps and 3 years later I'm still running without any problems anymore.

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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

WCKD wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:19 pm Had the same problem with my Dicktator. Used to cut when I'm at a robot or low revs. Then I had to wait about 20-30 seconds with the power of to get it going again.
The exact same symptoms I'm experiencing...and when you get it going I found that one has to rev the engine to about 2000 rpm for a few seconds before you pull away again otherwise it dies as soon as you shift to second gear (and that is with a new 657 battery and alternator charging over 13V). Sometimes if you switch the headlights back on to soon it also dies.Had to wait 30 minutes one time

I presume you had the 36-1 or 60-2 with magnetic/hall effect crank sensor?
Last edited by Stef on Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Mud Dog »

From what I've heard, the much older after market ECU's were prone to being problematic with voltage spikes and drops, Spitronics included. I believe that most of this has been sorted, however Spits has surged way ahead over that period and is now the better replacement option IMO.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

What I also like about Spitronics is the fact that there is no mag adapter or igniter needed as the drivers are on board
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Mud Dog »

Yep, it's almost plug'n'play. :D:
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Jan 007 »

I have a similar problem with my 2.7 Hilux...

First started a couple of months ago, solved it by cleaning the battery's terminals. So everything was fine for about two months until Saturday then it started again. On my vehicle the petrol supply doesn't seem to be a problem, just loses spark and cuts out (checked). Sometimes momentarily but other times I have to wait a minute or two before it starts again.

Saturday was after driving about 30 km, this morning after about 1.5km. So I think for tonight I am going to first check the earth cable, then connections to the altenator and then the Dizzy...

If anybody has some more smart plans, let me know! I have beer in the fridge...

Jan
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

What are you running Jan, the original ECU or aftermarket?
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Jan 007 »

I bought the vehicle second hand 7 years ago and did not make any changes to the ECU it came with. The previous owner informed me that he did a stage 1 chip conversion at Steve's Auto Clinic.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Jan 007 »

Stef,

My attempts did not work. We have two very small kids at home and my son wants to help with everything. So I started working, turned around to get a screw driver and saw most of my tools already in the garden.... Reading the forum is also problematic, as soon as they see the tabled they want to play games and it is a bit of a struggle (my knowledge on electrical aspects is not that good and I need to read a lot and see pictures!.

So I've decided for the sake of keeping sanity at home to take the Hilux to a previously used auto electrician. I had a very good discussion with him this morning and our plans are ready.

Kind Regards,
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by Stef »

Finally had an opportunity to do proper testing....it failed to start yesterday in the garage and remained in that state for long enough so that i could pry into the harness & hook up my logic tester and a multi-meter.

So with ignition on & the Dicktator powered up and no trigger signal....
check #1:on the signal wire the logic probe first indicated a logic low & then a logic high and stayed in that state even when cranking the engine
Check #2 hooked up a square wave signal from the tester/generator to the signal wire on the harness; pump engaged & injectors were firing
Check #3 removed test signal & cranked the engine; still no signal
Check #4 tested Voltages at the Optic pickup emitter & collector (+V & -V from the TP100) and got 10V & 9V respectively

Switched ignition off and back on, engine started...
Check #5 tested voltages again, 12v & 0V respectively


So it seems the ignitor (TP100) is the culprit. Haven't had a chance to disconnect & test the optic under no start conditions yet as it didn't fail after all that.
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Re: Engine cutting out

Post by LouisZ »

Gebruik jy die Dictator se Igniter(Rooi boksie)?
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