"Bolt-on" recovry points
- WayneSchalk
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"Bolt-on" recovry points
Where can I find a supplier of "bolt-on" recovery points like the ones in the picture below?
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
I don't particularly like those units and seriously doubt that they would be acceptable for any competitive event. The first issue is that they have a transverse base (as opposed to a linear base - in line with the chassis rail that they would normally be attached to), so where does one attach them ... bumpers are normally no good for this purpose except for properly constructed and secured integrated bumpers (which normally have recovery points built in already).
Then, even if you have a suitable transverse surface on which to mount it, there is the issue of the recovery angle. Straight would provide the optimum strength for the unit but straight is not always possible or even desired. So what happens if you recover at an angle off the perpendicular? ..... a lot of extra force is exerted on the base plate which could bend / crack / snap off .... additionally, even if the base held, that extra force would be shifted to the two furthest anchor bolts. So now instead of the force being spread evenly across 4 bolts, it's biased to one side and there is a greater risk of those two bolts carrying most of the load, to shear / snap (once they go the remaining two will pop like twigs). The size of those anchor bolts in the pics look very small as well.
Long story short, I wouldn't trust it for recovery purposes.
Then, even if you have a suitable transverse surface on which to mount it, there is the issue of the recovery angle. Straight would provide the optimum strength for the unit but straight is not always possible or even desired. So what happens if you recover at an angle off the perpendicular? ..... a lot of extra force is exerted on the base plate which could bend / crack / snap off .... additionally, even if the base held, that extra force would be shifted to the two furthest anchor bolts. So now instead of the force being spread evenly across 4 bolts, it's biased to one side and there is a greater risk of those two bolts carrying most of the load, to shear / snap (once they go the remaining two will pop like twigs). The size of those anchor bolts in the pics look very small as well.
Long story short, I wouldn't trust it for recovery purposes.
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
What is the opinion on these?
Just for interest sake. Looks like a gimmick to me and you will only have 1 recovery point. Better than none I suppose.
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Just for interest sake. Looks like a gimmick to me and you will only have 1 recovery point. Better than none I suppose.
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Re:
the hooks are supposedly ratedCleaner wrote:What is the opinion on these?
Just for interest sake. Looks like a gimmick to me and you will only have 1 recovery point. Better than none I suppose.
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the towbar attachment , well i wouldnt recover with that
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if you want to change this to recovered , first recover me - and have a relevant picture / foto to prove it !
ADVANCED 4x4 DRIVER COURSES DONE : US 254135 / US 254154
(STILL AWAITING SO-CALLED TETA CERTIFICATION VIA THE SERVICE PROVIDER AFRICAN OFF-ROAD ACADEMY - WHAT A JOKE)
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Re:
Daai afrikaanse taalgebruik skrik my al klaar af. Klink soos 'n program op kyknetCleaner wrote:What is the opinion on these?
Just for interest sake. Looks like a gimmick to me and you will only have 1 recovery point. Better than none I suppose.
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
Ek moes self twee keer lees, klaar lag en toe weer lees.Bushwacker wrote:
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
The "ontkoppelingstaaf met boogskakel" is better than nothing especially on Fortuners where it is near to impossible to fit any other kind of recovery point without cutting bumpers or bodywork.
I also have those recovery points on my Jeep, and spoke to some guys about them to find out if they would be okay for snatch/kinetic recoveries. These experts recon they are okay. Open hook type recovery points are still better, because they remove shackles from the recovery setup, but they only bolt on with 2 bolts, which are also prone to sheering when used at extreme angles.
The only time the mounting bolts on recovery point will bend or twist off is when they are loose. Just remember to re-torque your recovery points after each recovery..
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I also have those recovery points on my Jeep, and spoke to some guys about them to find out if they would be okay for snatch/kinetic recoveries. These experts recon they are okay. Open hook type recovery points are still better, because they remove shackles from the recovery setup, but they only bolt on with 2 bolts, which are also prone to sheering when used at extreme angles.
The only time the mounting bolts on recovery point will bend or twist off is when they are loose. Just remember to re-torque your recovery points after each recovery..
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
I might add to always use rated shackles, ropes, bridals, kinetic straps and off course rated HT bolts and nuts.
But where to buy these recovery points
I am building a rear bumper and want to fit these, this is my 2nd go at a bumper for the rear and want to change to these instead of drilling a hole in the plate coming off the chassis as I am sure it is much stronger this way.
But where to buy these recovery points
I am building a rear bumper and want to fit these, this is my 2nd go at a bumper for the rear and want to change to these instead of drilling a hole in the plate coming off the chassis as I am sure it is much stronger this way.
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
I personally would mount those rear recovery points vertically, allowing the shackle to move from side to side and keeping the rope central in the shackle, as they are now if you are not performing a direct straight tow/snatch then the rope will move inside the shackle,
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
Personally I'm not a fan of the hooks, but the more experienced okes swear by them. I also like bow shackles; Here's the link of how I did mine... ORRU guys at the RDW family fun day were more than chuffed with them, so drill into the plate
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=12595&hilit=recovery+points
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=12595&hilit=recovery+points
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
Here's where you can buy them.. but they are not cheap.. :wth: :wth: :wth:
http://www.northridge4x4.co.za/shop/ter ... ir-4803300" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.northridge4x4.co.za/shop/ter ... ir-4803300" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
Keep in mind that the lesser metal objects you use in the recovery the safer it is. In other words if you have the hooks, it's only the hooks and the strap / Rope. Now if you have a recovery point like above, you have to fit a shackle... another hard object. So now you have more metal objects that can become projectiles.
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
ShoeThysdJ wrote:Here's where you can buy them.. but they are not cheap.. :wth: :wth: :wth:
http://www.northridge4x4.co.za/shop/ter ... ir-4803300" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ok so I will be drilling holes :wth:
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
+1Stubs wrote:I personally would mount those rear recovery points vertically, allowing the shackle to move from side to side and keeping the rope central in the shackle, as they are now if you are not performing a direct straight tow/snatch then the rope will move inside the shackle,
OFFICIAL HILUX 4x4 RECOVERY VEHICLE
if you want to change this to recovered , first recover me - and have a relevant picture / foto to prove it !
ADVANCED 4x4 DRIVER COURSES DONE : US 254135 / US 254154
(STILL AWAITING SO-CALLED TETA CERTIFICATION VIA THE SERVICE PROVIDER AFRICAN OFF-ROAD ACADEMY - WHAT A JOKE)
if you want to change this to recovered , first recover me - and have a relevant picture / foto to prove it !
ADVANCED 4x4 DRIVER COURSES DONE : US 254135 / US 254154
(STILL AWAITING SO-CALLED TETA CERTIFICATION VIA THE SERVICE PROVIDER AFRICAN OFF-ROAD ACADEMY - WHAT A JOKE)
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
i had a argument about recovery popints with a instructer one dayStef wrote:Personally I'm not a fan of the hooks, but the more experienced okes swear by them. I also like bow shackles; Here's the link of how I did mine... ORRU guys at the RDW family fun day were more than chuffed with them, so drill into the plate
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=12595&hilit=recovery+points
this whole rated recovery point thing just didnt make sense
but they have their standard and thats now the rules.
OFFICIAL HILUX 4x4 RECOVERY VEHICLE
if you want to change this to recovered , first recover me - and have a relevant picture / foto to prove it !
ADVANCED 4x4 DRIVER COURSES DONE : US 254135 / US 254154
(STILL AWAITING SO-CALLED TETA CERTIFICATION VIA THE SERVICE PROVIDER AFRICAN OFF-ROAD ACADEMY - WHAT A JOKE)
if you want to change this to recovered , first recover me - and have a relevant picture / foto to prove it !
ADVANCED 4x4 DRIVER COURSES DONE : US 254135 / US 254154
(STILL AWAITING SO-CALLED TETA CERTIFICATION VIA THE SERVICE PROVIDER AFRICAN OFF-ROAD ACADEMY - WHAT A JOKE)
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
I hear ya, it's only as rated as the mounting bolts...but I think the ORRU guys were pretty reasonable @ RDW.JEEPIE wrote:i had a argument about recovery popints with a instructer one day
this whole rated recovery point thing just didnt make sense
but they have their standard and thats now the rules.
Common sense tells me the an entire bumper & winch will not become much a projectile even if all 6 rated bolts come undone, and you'll have to really make an effort to shear 2x 4.5 ton shackles
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
The big thing about weight rating on recovery points and equipment is so that you can determine where the weakest point(s) in your recovery setup is, and deploy countermeasures at that point to prevent damage or injury. Dealing with a whole lot of unknowns makes for unsafe recoveries.
Spreading the load reduces the impact/shock/force over a bigger area and more high tensile steel bolts. The chances of all the bolts on all the recovery points failing at once are slim.
Please dont use gutter bolts.
Spreading the load reduces the impact/shock/force over a bigger area and more high tensile steel bolts. The chances of all the bolts on all the recovery points failing at once are slim.
Please dont use gutter bolts.
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
As a ORRU Member a few notes on recovery points:
Those hooks are TROUBLE, even the rated ones as they are only rated at 10,000 lbs which is about 4,5 metric tons and way below spec, especially as users tend to recover on just one hook rather than a bridle and two hooks....
These inserts, if made well, are fine for recovery and will be better/ stronger on a well made towbar than any other home improvised recovery point at the back somewhere...
The idea of drilling a suitable hole on the two drop plates on the back tow bar of a Hilux (where the plates attach to the chassis) is still a good idea and as long as the two or three bolts holding the plate to the chassis are High Tensile (8.8) then, that plate is going nowhere. If you then beef up the hole with the spacers that is also OK.
Those hooks are TROUBLE, even the rated ones as they are only rated at 10,000 lbs which is about 4,5 metric tons and way below spec, especially as users tend to recover on just one hook rather than a bridle and two hooks....
These inserts, if made well, are fine for recovery and will be better/ stronger on a well made towbar than any other home improvised recovery point at the back somewhere...
The idea of drilling a suitable hole on the two drop plates on the back tow bar of a Hilux (where the plates attach to the chassis) is still a good idea and as long as the two or three bolts holding the plate to the chassis are High Tensile (8.8) then, that plate is going nowhere. If you then beef up the hole with the spacers that is also OK.
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
Boertjie wrote:As a ORRU Member a few notes on recovery points:
Those hooks are TROUBLE, even the rated ones as they are only rated at 10,000 lbs which is about 4,5 metric tons and way below spec, especially as users tend to recover on just one hook rather than a bridle and two hooks....
These inserts, if made well, are fine for recovery and will be better/ stronger on a well made towbar than any other home improvised recovery point at the back somewhere...
The idea of drilling a suitable hole on the two drop plates on the back tow bar of a Hilux (where the plates attach to the chassis) is still a good idea and as long as the two or three bolts holding the plate to the chassis are High Tensile (8.8) then, that plate is going nowhere. If you then beef up the hole with the spacers that is also OK.
Ja see...told you okes!
Tx for the info Boertjie
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
WTH.... Lol, people on this form crack me up :-)
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
WhyJuan21 wrote:WTH.... Lol, people on this form crack me up :-)
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
Still waiting to see the one that says "Sent from my PC using my neighbour's WiFi connection."
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Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
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It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
The 4 bolt ones are the "Military type", they are very strong and can be snatched on if mounted correctly
Every type of recovery hook has it's advantages / disadvantages, forget about ratings, ratings depends on who rated it, a 10 ton SABS rating will get a 30 ton rating in Taiwan. Use common sense and choose the right one for your vehicle.
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Every type of recovery hook has it's advantages / disadvantages, forget about ratings, ratings depends on who rated it, a 10 ton SABS rating will get a 30 ton rating in Taiwan. Use common sense and choose the right one for your vehicle.
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
Problem is that the neighbour is probably also a forum member So you'll only be able to say it once LOLMud Dog wrote:Still waiting to see the one that says "Sent from my PC using my neighbour's WiFi connection."
No touch screens were cursed at/ abused during the typing of this post.
PS the neighbour's connection is too slow anayway
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
Also trueHoppy wrote:Every type of recovery hook has it's advantages / disadvantages, forget about ratings, ratings depends on who rated it, a 10 ton SABS rating will get a 30 ton rating in Taiwan. Use common sense and choose the right one for your vehicle.
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
And you know this how?Stef wrote:Problem is that the neighbour is probably also a forum member So you'll only be able to say it once LOLMud Dog wrote:Still waiting to see the one that says "Sent from my PC using my neighbour's WiFi connection."
No touch screens were cursed at/ abused during the typing of this post.
PS the neighbour's connection is too slow anayway
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
Would it be possible to make these out of MILD STEEL or should it be made out of EN8 or EN19ThysdJ wrote:Here's where you can buy them.. but they are not cheap.. :wth: :wth: :wth:
http://www.northridge4x4.co.za/shop/ter ... ir-4803300" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I will do a costing on these and see if we can get some made and sold here cheaper then those.....
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- CasKru
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
Keep in mind that the piece sticking out from the back plate is bevelled so even if the welding fails, the bevel will keep it in place
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
To me it looks like the "bevelled" section is the actual weld.CasKru wrote:Keep in mind that the piece sticking out from the back plate is bevelled so even if the welding fails, the bevel will keep it in place
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
- CasKru
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
Made a quick drawing so you can understand what I'm saying... (not to scale or anything... just the concept)Mud Dog wrote:To me it looks like the "bevelled" section is the actual weld.CasKru wrote:Keep in mind that the piece sticking out from the back plate is bevelled so even if the welding fails, the bevel will keep it in place
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
Cassie you forgot to mention that you sent that from your Albert using your Einstein!!!
Thys de Jager
Fired as CEO and Refreshments Manager at Team Offroad.
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Fired as CEO and Refreshments Manager at Team Offroad.
2018 FJ Cruiser - #stofgevreet
1984 Mercedes 126 Black Widow Vernon Koekemoer Edition
email: thysdj@gmail.com
Like Team Offroad on Facebook...
- Stef
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
'cause I had to fix it on a few occasionsMud Dog wrote:[And you know this how?
- MOFASA
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
I was thinking of this...
Machined from a solid block... NO WELDING....
It may be expensive but cant see it costing the same as those ones.....
Will do a costing to see if im right....
Machined from a solid block... NO WELDING....
It may be expensive but cant see it costing the same as those ones.....
Will do a costing to see if im right....
- Attachments
-
- Solid Recovery Block.JPG
- (64 KiB) Downloaded 257 times
Live Life in the FAST lane....
Forget the past, Embrace the FUTURE!!!!
To 4x4 or not to 4x4 thats the question....
IT'S A JEEP ..... You wouldn't understand....
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Forget the past, Embrace the FUTURE!!!!
To 4x4 or not to 4x4 thats the question....
IT'S A JEEP ..... You wouldn't understand....
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- Mud Dog
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
I understood that Cassie, and thought that's what you meant, but I don't see anything on the pic to suggest they're made this way. If they are, it may well make them stronger, but to my mind there's still the issue of the 4 small mounting bolts. If the backing plate were bigger and there were 4 bolts on each side or the existing four bolts were thicker I would be more accepting of the concept. Perhaps I'm just being overly critical, but to my mind it's still safety that matters in the final analysis.CasKru wrote:Made a quick drawing so you can understand what I'm saying... (not to scale or anything... just the concept)Mud Dog wrote:To me it looks like the "bevelled" section is the actual weld.CasKru wrote:Keep in mind that the piece sticking out from the back plate is bevelled so even if the welding fails, the bevel will keep it in place
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
- MonsterLux
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
Some good info I came across for me at least the pdf files in link bellow.
http://www.ccvc.org.nz/index.php/ccvc/T ... d-On-Trips" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For interest sake for those that don't know what 4.6 or 8.8 on a bolt head stands for.
The first number represents the ultimate tensile strength of the bolt 400KPa or 800KPa respectively. The second number represents the point at which the bolt will permanently stretch. ( officially, the 0.2% proof load stress). A 4.6 bolt permanently stretches at 60% of its ultimate, and 8.8 at 80%.
All stresses is tensile. For shear One use 0.5/0.6 of tensile I prevere 0.5 for greater safety factor.
Using formula. STRESS = FORCE /AREA. f = F / A
A = pi x D square / 4
F = fs x A. ( fs - shear. ft - tensile)
F = 320000000 x pi x 0.012 squared / 4
F = 36190 N
F = 3,619 tons / 2.5 safety factor
F = 1,447 tons
SWL on three M12 8.8 bolts would then be 4,342 tons
fs is worked on 80% yield on 800 KPa which is 640 KPa and then 0.5 of that to get shear which is 320 KPa.
That's why they recomend using minimum three M12 8.8 bolts in attachment above
Just m2c
Johan
http://www.ccvc.org.nz/index.php/ccvc/T ... d-On-Trips" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For interest sake for those that don't know what 4.6 or 8.8 on a bolt head stands for.
The first number represents the ultimate tensile strength of the bolt 400KPa or 800KPa respectively. The second number represents the point at which the bolt will permanently stretch. ( officially, the 0.2% proof load stress). A 4.6 bolt permanently stretches at 60% of its ultimate, and 8.8 at 80%.
All stresses is tensile. For shear One use 0.5/0.6 of tensile I prevere 0.5 for greater safety factor.
Using formula. STRESS = FORCE /AREA. f = F / A
A = pi x D square / 4
F = fs x A. ( fs - shear. ft - tensile)
F = 320000000 x pi x 0.012 squared / 4
F = 36190 N
F = 3,619 tons / 2.5 safety factor
F = 1,447 tons
SWL on three M12 8.8 bolts would then be 4,342 tons
fs is worked on 80% yield on 800 KPa which is 640 KPa and then 0.5 of that to get shear which is 320 KPa.
That's why they recomend using minimum three M12 8.8 bolts in attachment above
Just m2c
Johan
Last edited by MonsterLux on Wed May 22, 2013 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- CasKru
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
Thanks for that info Johan... at least 3 M12 8.8 bolts it is then
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
Ek en my Hilux is een!!! Het nie n bakkie nie. Honde drink en eet uit n bakkie!!!CasKru wrote:En jou bakkie sin?
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
Pleasure. Just tried to add a bit of figures so that one can get a feeling of what the bolts can do. They are most of the time the weakest link in the whole recovery train. Then people tent to blame the shackles or hooks when they become projectiles.CasKru wrote:Thanks for that info Johan... at least 3 M12 8.8 bolts it is then
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
So on the topic of recovery points, I am going to cut a couple of these. don't know who's pic this is. what would you recon is a good thickness? 12mm? and what material, SS or mild steel
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
WayneSchalk wrote:So on the topic of recovery points, I am going to cut a couple of these. don't know who's pic this is. what would you recon is a good thickness? 12mm? and what material, SS or mild steel
Mild steel is more than strond enough... 8 to 10mm with a bush welded into it should be fine
Live Life in the FAST lane....
Forget the past, Embrace the FUTURE!!!!
To 4x4 or not to 4x4 thats the question....
IT'S A JEEP ..... You wouldn't understand....
[rimg=206x128]
Forget the past, Embrace the FUTURE!!!!
To 4x4 or not to 4x4 thats the question....
IT'S A JEEP ..... You wouldn't understand....
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- Mud Dog
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
Mild steel is better than stainless for this IMO. Stainless is hard but it is also more brittle, especially if it fatigues, then it snaps without warning.
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
- MonsterLux
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
Do not use normal mild steel make sure you use at least a SABS 1431 GR350 WA. Normal mild steel has a UTS of 100KPa where 350 wa has a UTS of 350KPa. Do not go thinner than 12mm. Then make sure the vertical distance from the edge of the hole to the edge of the plate is not less than 20mm top and bottom and the horizontal distance from the edge of the hole to the edge of the plate not to be less than 40mm (the direction you going to pull in). Using the above works out on 5 tons SWL.
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Re: "Bolt-on" recovry points
If you are going to cut the plates as per sample in the photo make sure the vertical and horizontal sizes from edge of hole to edge of plate not to be less than 40 mm