THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

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THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Scorpion »

So guys, I’ve decided to post this here as Pieter needs our help, but doesn’t want to ask for it. (Sorry for you, Pieter, but sometimes you need a few friends and many hands make light work :tongue: ). Okay so here’s the story:

As we all know Pieter is importing snorkels from China at about 40% of the price of the “branded” rip off’s. Now Safari has gotten wind of this and is threatening to sue the boss for “registered design infringement”. Now I put this in inverted commas because Safari actually does have registered designs, but those designs were only registered in the South African market in February 2010. The rules clearly state that if you want to register a design it must be 1. New and 2. not already available in the marketplace.

They have tried to intimidate companies all over the world that do the same thing as Pieter (even in their home country, Australia), and they have failed dismally when it eventually reached the courts (they even lost a case against Ironman whose snorkels come from the same factory as Pieter’s). As I understand they even tried to shut down the factory in China, but that attempt also left them with their tail between their legs. It seems like they are only trying scare tactics to protect their market share and force the consumers to spend their hard earned cash on their products (and of course you can name your price when there are no competitors :evil: ).

So, to now call on all the members here: Pieter needs our help (no, he doesn’t need money – yet! :twisted: ) to prove that snorkels were on the market long before August 2009. What we are asking you guys to do is to search for pictures in posts (or any literature that can be dated) and post the link here. Nothing more! Below are the pictures of the designs Safari alleges they registered. If Pieter can provide proof (with pictures) that these designs were on the market long before Safari alleges they registered the designs, their designs may probably be revoked and will open the market to affordable alternatives.

Forum links are very useful since they contain dates of the posts.
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Now I don’t think that is too much to ask? Let’s give back a little to the man that gave us this great forum and fostered a love for our Hiluxes in a lot of us :thumbup: .
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Scorpion »

Okay, so I'll start shall I? :twisted: I've found these 2 so far:

http://www.fjccentral.info/showpost.php ... ostcount=1 September 2007.
Also 2007: http://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/ ... ost1941195[/quote]
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by 0000DS »

Here are a few:

http://www.4x4community.co.za/photopost ... photo/2358" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - 14 April 2008

http://www.4x4community.co.za/photopost ... photo/5275" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - 26 Feb 2009

http://www.4x4community.co.za/photopost ... photo/5379" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - 12 March 2009

http://www.4x4community.co.za/photopost ... photo/4517" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - 14 NOV 2008 LR TD5
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Hilux 1 »

i do hope this will also help
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/t ... post168207
02-12-2008

http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/tech_2 ... orkel.html

Tacoma snorkel - Feb 2008 - SA Design F2010/00802 and F2010/00799
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Post by Stef »

Well it is a group buy isn'ts it? Okes put their names on a list and the order was placed. Who are they to say we can't buy elsewhere? What if Pieter is not making a profit... :?:
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Klong se Pa »

Johann

So as ek jou reg verstaan: My KB300 Isuzu se Safari-snorkel is opgesit rondom Oktober 2007. Ek moet daai faktuur soek, dit scan, en dan hier post. Sal dit help?
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Post by CasKru »

Pieter.... ek is seker ek het 'n paar fodies iewers wat ek geneem het tydens die 2007 en 2008 Reg Raid. Sal bietjie gaan soek
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by NicoP »

Nou kan mens sien hoe die mark gemanipiluur word. Manne ek eis bly almal staan saam. Net jammer myne is eers Feb 2011 opgesit. Dammmmmm
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Maddoglips »

I'll gladly try and help no probs, will start looking.

Just a point though, if they have already tried to close the factory and didn't succeed and Iron man can continue, Pieter just needs to use there case studies as evidence and get a letter from the manufacturer stating that he is only purchasing the items from them under a business logo/name.

As long as all permits and import licences are up to date along with any duties paid big TOFFY to them.

Pieter, did they have the designs in there data base, or did you supply design paterns, this is where things may become sticky, but if they had them and can prove there intent was before the patent/registration, I can't see any ligit leg to stand on.

PS. because of this, Pieter you let me know when the container arrives with the SFA snorkels and I'll then buy 1 and take off my Safari even if it means I have to replace the fender and respray it.

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Post by Hilux 1 »

if in need of a brilliant lawyer, please contact me (PM) as my Brother is a lawyer. :crazy: ain't it.
Just thought i'll drop that add in here. :dance1:
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Bugzy »

Here is a link to a report tat Safari published with referance of the Africa market: http://www.dont-get-burnt.com/report.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Maddoglips »

Ok been doing some surfing, here's a link to 1 company that supplies and manufactures accessories for vehicles and 4x4's since 2002.

I will look further into it and see what else I can find, but there designs are extremely similar to these posted above, now please keep in mind I haven't read all the details yet just putting a pile together and then will look more into it.

http://jrautic.en.alibaba.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pieter, again best of luck and I'll keep looking and making a stink, it's bull that asshoiles like this can dictate and control a market.
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Post by Doctor V »

ek dink net mens begin maar net daai bliksemente se produkte te boikot. En vertel jou tjomme, en hulle tjomme. en elke ou wat jy by `n 4X4 dag ontmoet
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Post by ChrisF »

I just had a CLOSE look at my Ironman snorkel - EXACTLY the same design as those in the pictures in the first post - apart from the "Ironman" imprint.

Clearly somebody copied somebodies designs .....

BUT, and this is a very important but, there are very clear guidelines for registering a design\trade mark. For starters it must be a new CONCEPT. The "concept" of a snorkel has been around for decades !

Did previous (early) snorkels have the ("A") design to prevent rain from entering the system - as the Safari one DO make claims on this .... ?


Note: If Safari can make a case that these imports are "knock off copies", then they can get customs to impound the next shipment ! :(

Best we get our ducks in a row.
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Post by legend35 »

http://www.4x4community.co.za/photopost ... photo/1105" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Post by legend35 »

http://www.4x4community.co.za/photopost ... photo/2241" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fortuner - March 2008
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Post by Scorpion »

ChrisF wrote: Note: If Safari can make a case that these imports are "knock off copies", then they can get customs to impound the next shipment ! :(

Best we get our ducks in a row.
I wouldn't worry too much about that. They will not be able to convince the authorities that Pieter's snorkels are "fakes', as it is not purporting to be a Safari product. It is purely another brand. Nope, Safari will have to fight this in court if they want to try and bully Pieter into submission! If they confiscate a shipment it will amount to theft.
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Vir 'n feit! Ek soek self na 2 snorkels (nog steeds een vir my Hilex en een vir my nuwe bakkie) en sal beslis nie 'n Safari produk meer koop nie, hoewel hulle heel bo aan my lys was voor hulle met Pieter begin skoor soek het. :evil:
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Traveler »

I am scouring magazines, let's see, should find something there as well.

Safari will not get any support from me. :evil: I'll sommer boikot Safari Dried Fruit as well. :laugh2:
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Maddoglips »

Morning All

Gotta say this sucks, looking at Big Red this morning with the Safari Snorkel didn't have the same taste, although she looks good with it on, can't deny it.

Well abit of "Hear Say" for you all, now please note the words Hear Say.

Sounds like the SA side of Safari has the following outlook.

It's rumoured that they gave their clients who wanted to sell Chinese and Safari snorkels a big No and as a result, many of these places are no longer allowed to sell the Safari Snorkels.
This has also I believe, lead to some places been prevented from further buying from them.
I'm also lead to believe that some big outdoor group wanted to sell some of the chinese snorkels up until they were given the same Story from them.

Now if this is all true, isn't it a load of bull, how 1 place is able to manipulate the others, and in so taking away our freedom of choice. Maybe it's Safari's instructions to them, or maybe it's there own idea of how to do things.

Somethings just leave a bad taste no matter which way you look at it.
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Hoppy »

Think i'm going to grind my Safari logo off and cover the mark with a "hilux 4x4.co.za" sticker
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Post by Doctor V »

wouldn't the same then apply for tires? they look the same?

and what about cars - I'm sure some of those Chinese imports look like more well known brands

and the list goes on and on and on. methinks unless they prove that some part of that snorkel is unique and trademark registered they can forget about it! :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:
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Post by arnize2 »

The tactics that are described here is exactly how it is in the world of business today. I would not worry to much if I was Pieter. If it does not say "Safari" or any other trade mark that they registered, on the snorkel, they have no case. It is all a big BLUFF to try protect their market share. :thumbdown:
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Post by shakir »

It is really not prosperous to use such bad tactics to protect your market share. Why can't they just fight their war with a price war like a good gentleman would do. But don't worry, businesses who use such tactics in the end feel the crunch as the wheel of life turns against them.
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Post by arnize2 »

You are correct in your comment, Shakir. The thing is they do not want to get involved in a price war. They are used to the BIG profits and hate the competition. Something of a Mafia tactic. The more we talk about it, the more people will become aware of it and then one can make your own decisions.
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Post by Thabogrobler »

IF such a case get to court, Pieter should put a question to them: If the stop him from selling his product, will the pay him a monthly fee the same as what he was making of this product?

Furthermore, they might have patent rights on THEIR product but that does not apply to ALL snorkels. Get hold and use the detail of the Oz court case.

Bad business IMHO.
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Post by jan30 »

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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by shakir »

I wonder who copied who, look at this one
Dated 1990/02/27 by Donaldson Filters
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https://dynamic.donaldson.com/webc/WebS ... item=18377
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Post by shakir »

No Piet, really, I think you must tell these guys to make your day and go to court. They will waste millions because you will win and they will have to cover your cost.

Look at the 4th picture our educated friend posted. Looks like the DiD Pajero.
OOOODS posted the link of that snorkel dated June 2005.
http://www.foro4x4.com/foro/index.php?P ... 69#msg9369
That looks like Safari's SS35HF
http://www.safarisnorkel.com/snorkel/ss35hf/ss35hf.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When did we get those Pajero's, 2006? I cannot believe that Safari only started selling those snorkels in 2010.
The best way would be in court to summons their sole distributor to hand in his import documents (which he is obliged to keep for 5 years minimum) and see if he imported some of those models before Aug 2009.

Another point that will make this a brilliant case, I presume this is Piet's competition in Centurion, look at the post
http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/sho ... hp?t=50134" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This guy started selling, already imported, started selling his snorkels publicly on 10 January 2010 and Safari registered their first designs in Feb 2010. Does this tell you a story or not?

The snorkel head in the design pictures looks exactly as the heads on Ironman snorkels, so why is Ironman allowed to sell it in South Africa but not Piet? Is it because Safari already lost the case against Ironman? I browsed the Australian design register and so far I could not find that Safari registered that head design in their own country, why do they come and try and misuse our system in our country?

No my friend, snorkels are not the type of thing we put on our rides but I say tell them to see them in court and make sure your attorney stretches the case as long as he can. They don't have a chance. I hope you have the best and most expensive patent attorney in the country, if not, drop me an email and I will refer you to one.
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by CasKru »

I like where this is going... I think Safari this time picked the wrong fight..... one for all and all for one
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Post by Maddoglips »

CasKru wrote:I like where this is going... I think Safari this time picked the wrong fight..... one for all and all for one

Cassie, we all believe in fairness, I guess.

I'd love to meet the A Hole who instigated this and fit the CRAP snorkel I have on my van to certain parts of his body so every time he takes a dump, he soils on his own head :twisted:
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Scorpion »

Guys, Pieter has a very good attorney, so no worries there, but he needs to provide them with the material to fight this case :aggresive: . In my professional opinion, I also do not believe they have a case, but I posted this here because Pieter is taking strain to get as much info together as possible in the very truncated time periods that Safari has demanded. So please :beg: , keep these images, links, etc. coming - every little bit helps! But we need more, much more!

Thanks for everybody's help and support so far! :thumbup: I'm sure Pieter will pop in here at some time to thank everybody when he has a minute (even though he didn't want me to post this :twisted: )
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by cheetah »

Take them on Pieter :thumbup: but first get al the information, this forum is behind you :aggresive:
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by 0000DS »

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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by 0000DS »

Last Pic of Johan's post
http://www.toyota120.com/forum/showpost ... ostcount=1
April 2007
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by ChrisF »

Here are some pictures of a September 2010 Ironman snorkel.

If these are not affected by the copyright, then the no-name cant be singled out ....
Attachments
IMG_7607 (Custom).jpg
IMG_6845 (Custom).jpg
IMG_6845 (Custom).jpg (26.95 KiB) Viewed 11537 times
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by george »

"The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.-Saint Augustine"
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by legend35 »

http://www.ttora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32318" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
July 2006

http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/67150" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
June 2003
http://www.g20.net/forum/showpost.php?p ... stcount=30
July 2003

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f5/simple- ... post114458
April 2007
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by ThysdJ »

Ek het hierdie van Petrus Nieuwoudt gekry. Dis van 'n Safari snorkel wat op sy broer se Fortuner ge-installeer is in 2007.

Foto van die snorkel en afskrif van die "invoice".
IMG00095-20110602-1607.jpg
Invoice.pdf
(294.55 KiB) Downloaded 141 times
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by 2.8 d/cab SFA »

http://www.overland.co.za/travel_report ... _07_08.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.overland.co.za/travel_report ... Turner.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.overland.co.za/travel_report ... t_2009.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.overland.co.za/travel_report ... lessis.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.overland.co.za/travel_report ... c_2008.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.overland.co.za/travel_report ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.overland.co.za/travel_report ... y_2008.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.overland.co.za/Photo_Albums/ ... pril_2007/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.overland.co.za/travel_report ... to_Moz.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.overland.co.za/travel_report ... a_2009.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.overland.co.za/travel_report ... t_2007.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.overland.co.za/travel_report ... c_2009.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.overland.co.za/travel_report ... h_2009.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.overland.co.za/travel_report ... l_2009.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.overland.co.za/travel_report ... p_2008.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:thumbup: hope this helps
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Family_Dog »

The overland site John posted above seems to be down?


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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by The Legend »

Family_Dog wrote:The overland site John posted above seems to be down?


-F_D
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by 2.8 d/cab SFA »

ok i can open the links pdf trip reports, not sure why it not working, i will download and mail it. Please which mail adress to mail to?
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Piesang »

Pieter ek kan nou nie by dra by die bewysse nie, maar ek bid jou alle sukses toe in Jesus Naam.
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by pietpetoors »

I would like to thank each and everyone of you for your input and help. Also a great thank you for the hundreds of emails of encouragement and support I received who did not want to openly post on the forum. It really is heart warming to see that we have so much support in this case, and not only from Hilux owners.

At first I was not very impressed with Johann for posting this in public, but now I am happy he did. From this post came some very good ammunition which I did not have before. Like the Donaldson Ram Head, many people wondered who really first invented the nifty ram head. From the links posted by one of you, I studied some of Donaldson's documentation and found literature dating back as far as 1986 with that head design. From the links you guys posted it seems like the designs they registered as "new" designs were in fact available in the open market as far back as 2003.

It seems like Safari's biggest issue is copy right on the templates. Luckily for us we started re-designing the templates soon after we sold the first snorkel. I realised that the templates supplied by the chinese were highly inaccurate and decided to do our own. So when Safari sent me the first letter I did not even bother to get hold of their templates to test it and see if it really were the same, I just told the design team that the templates must all be ready within a week. I am sure that I could get samples from them and prove that ours are not the same, but since they were inaccurate anyway it was not worth the effort. In fact while I am in the thanking mood I would like to thank Safari for forcing us to improve our product much quicker than planned. We still do not know if the old templates were really the same as theirs, but we really do not care, the new ones are much more accurate.

A lot of good came from all of this. I know about at least 5 people in South Africa who are importing chinese snorkels (those who acknowledge it to be chinese snorkels) All 5 are small businesses importing limited numbers of snorkels. Because of Safari's attempts 4 of the 5 are now helping and supporting each other. So where they had a couple of small competitions they are creating one huge competition for themselves. Besides the South African competiton, because of this I also received wonderful support from 2 Australian, 1 Canadian and one UK company. There are one Australian company in particular who were very helpful in helping me with information since they walked this road with Safari before. So all in all they just made us better and stronger. A great thank you for Safari and their team.

Then, the biggest joke of all is that snorkels are not as big a seller as everybody thinks. The stock are moving slow and it takes lots of space to store. It is expensive to import and expensive to courier. I make more money from my smaller products than from the snorkels. I actually decided that after my next container I will stop importing snorkels and just buy from one of the other importers and sell it on. But now, after having to put in so much effort and after making so many new friends because of this, I think I will continue. So if Safari did not send me their letter I would have been out of the game within 6 months from now, but now they showed me there might be a bigger potential market than I thought.
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by 2.8 d/cab SFA »

excellent, let me know when SFA ones will be ready.
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Piesang »

Now thats the spirit Pieter :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Animul »

Hello Pieter,

Whenever you have one for a Wrangler, I'll be your first client!!

I shall wait then ....
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by sir shrek »

One ant cannot kill a giant.
But an army of ants will eat this giant in minutes.
Good luck to you Piter and please let me know when those snorkels land.

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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Johan Kriel »

Where are Safaris snorkels manufactured. I would not be surprised if its also in China. Maybe nothing to do with this tread, but China manufactured now a days many items inder their own name that was manufactured previously for other brand names. There are numerous.

But what one must make sure what is the originate of it China. The are original brand names, legal and illegal copies, and fakes.

Pieter take them on. Just for the sake of business.

For example the caterpillar machines that we bought are all manufactured in China, and sold here for 3 times the prices that it cost it Chine to manufacture, or put else one can buy the same spec machine with a China name for the third of the prices.
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Scorpion »

See Pieter? Hate to tell you I told you so... :twisted:

Anyway, thank you to each and every person who has helped and wished Pieter well. I am sure that what you guys have posted will definitely help immensely, but please continue to post any pics, links, etc when you stumble upon them. :thumbup:

Then as a side note, nobody has to worry about Safari pulling anybody else into this. Those that bought snorkels, did not buy anything illegal and those that post are merely voicing opinions and/or helping a friend. So IMHO and with all the proof above, it is very clear that Safari is not "playing ball". They are playing the man. What they should be doing is focusing on improving their product, starting a price war and building a good reputation. The money they are spending trying to shut down the competition should rather be used to on positive marketing and giving back to the consumer in the form of discounts and price reductions. Just M2CW... :evil:
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by ChrisF »

Pieter while you are improving the product - have a look at the small bolts used to bolt down the riser pipe on the A-pillar.

These tend to get some surface rust ....

My Ironman has the same surface rust as the Chinese import ......

not sure it just want to "Coat" it, or replace it with SS ones.
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by pietpetoors »

Chris, I saw that rust and it is the same as what some of the chinese products are doing. I cannot understand why they don't spend 50c more and use stainless bolts. If I were you I would rather buy stainless bolts and replace it with that especially because you are down in the Cape. Here by the sea even some stainless products rust.
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Mud Dog »

Way to go, Pieter!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Very happy that you've decided to continue with the snorkels! :D: ;-)
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by ThysdJ »

So ja!! Justice will prevail... :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Polarbear2008 »

Pieter

Bly om te hoor dinge gaan beter! Kyk maar in die Bybel - elke keer wat Farao die Isealiete gekasty het, het hulle beter anderkant uitgekom. Ek het persoonlik die ervaring gehad met die vorige eienaar van die besigheid waarvoor ek werk!

Ek is bly om te sien dat die Hilux manne so vierkantig agter jou staan! Dit wys inbors! Geluk manne (en dames!)
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Family_Dog »

Pieter will come out of this with his head held high! Sort of like David & Goliath... ;)


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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by pietpetoors »

"Life's problems would not be called 'hurdles' if there wasn't a way to get over them" Unknown
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by arnize2 »

Ek dink Safari het met hulle aksie net" slapende honde" wakker gemaak. Rook hulle Pieter!!! :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: THE BOSS NEEDS OUR HELP!!!!!

Post by Family_Dog »

Safari should have read Pieter's signature before "going with the flow"... ;)


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