Help needed: House wiring?

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Jaco Versfeld
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Help needed: House wiring?

Post by Jaco Versfeld »

Hi There,

We are in the process of buying a house. The property is a subdivision, and it seems as if the attorneys are at last ready to lodge at the deed office. However, the attorneys do not have a "certificate of compliance" (CoC) (or whatever it is called) for the electric wiring. The owner (an old lady) says an electrician has looked at the wiring (for R20 k), and will give the CoC as soon as we are lodging. (Which sounds fishy). The attorneys say they will hold R20 k back from the current owner, until they receive the CoC. Is this how it is normally done?

However, the lady asked that we take responsibility for the property at the moment (we do not have to pay occupational rent, as it was stipulated in the sale contract that occupation is upon registration).

In the mean time, which is very risky, we started to do some renovations.

I wanted to prep a wall for painting, but the electrical points had sections underneath them that showed after a first coat of paint. I then tried to rectify this. In this process, I found the following:


1. It seems as if the previous electrician used normal electric cord to connect the plugs. This cable runs in the wall, underneath the skirting, through a cupboard, etc. (see photos below). Also, the electric cord is joined at various places underneath the skirting with only insulation tape. Furthermore, one plug is used to feed 3 different rooms, with this electric cord. There must be at least 9 plugs (single and double points) connected to this one plug. Is this acceptable? Can I just use polyfilla or something similar and close the holes and chased channels, or should I rather use pvc conduit?
IMG00247-20131130-1230_e1.jpg
IMG00246-20131130-0945_e.jpg

2. Also, on the ceiling, because the house is very old, the 3 cables of the lights (Live, Neutral, earth) are connected to strange t-connecters, which are open (not in pvc conduit). Is this still legit?

If both 1 and 2 is not acceptable, where can I find the regulations for electric wiring. In particular:

Is 2.5 mm2 wire sufficient for both my lights and plugs.
Can I run two circuits' wire in one conduit, say lights and one room's plugs?
If there is an existing conduit for a light, connected to a small metal box in the wall, can I run a plugs wires through that, or is this not acceptable?

There was two rooms added later on to the existing house. As such, the old cavity wall (double layer wall) still exists and separates one room with the two added on later. I see there is a water pipe going into the cavity. May I run electric conduits also in this cavity wall? This will enable me not to chase in the wall, but only to make a hole for the metal box.

It seems as if you need an inspection box after each 90 degree bend?

Am I allowed to join wires in a inspection box.

May I use blue wire for the wire going from the light switch to the light, or should this also be red? (Live - red, Neutral - black, Earth - green/open copper)

Your help and suggestions in this regard will be greatly appreciated
Jaco

(PS - I did post this on 4x4community as well, hope it is in order...)
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Re: Help needed: House wiring?

Post by FIRSTGEER »

I strongly recommend that you rather get a licensed elctrician to check the wiring for you.Check with your local Electrical Contractors Assoc or your municipality for a registered electrician to give you a quote to rectify any problematic and incorrect wiring and for the issueing of the coc. R20 000 seems very steep to me .Ask the seller for the electricans name and no and check whether he's registered.Sounds very fishy to me.Good luck.
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Re: Help needed: House wiring?

Post by Pjjvdm »

Jaco, daai R20k is baie! Ek het al baie die idee gekry dan seeker agente/prokuruers ooreenkonste het om die dinge uit te sort sonder te veel kompetiese wat prys aanbetref.
Ek sal self 'n elektrisien kry om te kom kyk!
Tipies moet die draad maar in PVC in die muur wees en ek sal ook nie ligte en plug circuits meng in dieselfde conduit nie.
Sterkte!
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Re: Help needed: House wiring?

Post by ChrisF »

Jaco you are in for a TOUGH RIDE !!!

A COC "Certificate of Compliance" is only valid until the next renovations - by STARTING your renovations you have now absconded the old lady of her resposibilities ..... Her electrician will now walk in and say: "Work has been done since I was last here. The NEW electrician now needs to issue the COC".



I STRONGLY recommend you DO NOT do any further renovations, until such time that SHE issues the COC.


without the COC the Deeds Office will NOT transfer the property, in fact the lawer cant submit the documents to the Deeds Office without the COC.



Let's HOPE, you have done NOTHING to the electrical layout in the work you have done thus far - if so, you will pick up the tab for the repairs to the electrical system ....


PS - 20k is not a lot to get an older property up to spec ... people do renovations at will, and with total disregard for the rules, at the time of transfer these must then be rectified ....
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Re: Help needed: House wiring?

Post by george »

As Chris says.Dont do anything further.Let them do the CoC.I sold 2 properties in the last year and both of them was R6000 and R4000 each to get the CoC and the electric where not in a bad shape.
ChrisF wrote:Jaco you are in for a TOUGH RIDE !!!

A COC "Certificate of Compliance" is only valid until the next renovations - by STARTING your renovations you have now absconded the old lady of her resposibilities ..... Her electrician will now walk in and say: "Work has been done since I was last here. The NEW electrician now needs to issue the COC".



I STRONGLY recommend you DO NOT do any further renovations, until such time that SHE issues the COC.


without the COC the Deeds Office will NOT transfer the property, in fact the lawer cant submit the documents to the Deeds Office without the COC.



Let's HOPE, you have done NOTHING to the electrical layout in the work you have done thus far - if so, you will pick up the tab for the repairs to the electrical system ....


PS - 20k is not a lot to get an older property up to spec ... people do renovations at will, and with total disregard for the rules, at the time of transfer these must then be rectified ....
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Re: Help needed: House wiring?

Post by Mud Dog »

That which you show in the pics is not compliant with regs.

Lights and plugs are to be separate circuits in separate ducting (plugs are to be on earth leakage while lights not necessary).

2.5 is ok for plugs but then I wouldn't put more than 3 / 4 sockets on one circuit. (Especially in a kitchen). LIghts can run off 1.8 ... (Normal electrical flex is not permitted).

Conduit in the wall is the better option, but nowadays they allow 'flat and earth' chased in under the plaster.

Connections must be secure and insulated (earth does not need to be insulated).

I'm not a sparky but am in the construction game and work with sparkies from time to time.
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Re: Help needed: House wiring?

Post by Donkey »

Hi Jaco.

Legally if the previous electrician used what is called norse cable the law allows for no PVC tubing, something I personally I not like doing for two reasons - safety and maintenance, or lack of it in this case.

All joints must be in closed joint/inspection boxes, insurance can and will use this against you should there be an electrical fire and not pay out, besides it being illegal.

CoC is there to protect humans, animals and property so if something happens to you or any of your family members, who will be responsible for that? :think:

My advise is not to take over someone's mess unless it is sorted out 100%, these things have a way of biting you back in the future.
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Re: Help needed: House wiring?

Post by Donkey »

Oh, yes you can mix circuirts in the same tubing, called "mixed circuits" but rather an old school approach to things, as long as you use the correct combination of wire size and circuirt breaker, but I'd rather separate the circuits electrically - that is keep plug separate from lights.

Plug circuirts - 2.5mm wire coupled to a 20A breaker.
Light circuits - 1.5mm wire coupled to a 10A breaker.
But if you are going to mix them, which I do not encourage, use 2.5mm wire.
There is a calculation for the number of plugs per breaker but generally 3 - 4 plugs per breaker is the norm.
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Re: Help needed: House wiring?

Post by Thabogrobler »

Insist on an immediate COC issuance.

With the COC in hand you summonse the issuing Electrician to repair the wiring IMMEDIATELY, threaten to report to the EAC if he does not comply immediately.

And then follow through on your threats. Had to do it once in the past and the sparky jumped to fix his mess - the guys at the EAC does not take lightly to such complaints.
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Re: Help needed: House wiring?

Post by LouisZ »

Get the Electrical certificate immediately. No house as far as I know will be sold these days without one. I think the bank also wants it.

The cost will be that of the seller.

I ask for the compliance certificate of that Electrician, that looks really not right. He have to correct all the Electrical problems, no matter what. Especially if he was the one that signed a Electrical Certificate. Double check it.
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Re: Help needed: House wiring?

Post by Thabogrobler »

Kontak vir AlbertG op community, hy is 'n sparkie en ekn al daai regulasies op die punte van sy vingers - en hy vat ook nie twak van incompetent sparkies nie!
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Re: Help needed: House wiring?

Post by Jaco Versfeld »

Thanks for all the replies/info.

Did I compromise the electricity and CoC by opening up plugs? I needed to fill up alongside 3 plugs, and then unscrew the plugs, shielded the wire and polyfilla to fill up the wall? Was this a mistake on my side? At that stage I did not suspect foul wiring... Other than that, I did nothing to the wiring.
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Re: Help needed: House wiring?

Post by FJCruiser-ZN »

Jaco Versfeld wrote:Thanks for all the replies/info.

Did I compromise the electricity and CoC by opening up plugs? I needed to fill up alongside 3 plugs, and then unscrew the plugs, shielded the wire and polyfilla to fill up the wall? Was this a mistake on my side? At that stage I did not suspect foul wiring... Other than that, I did nothing to the wiring.
Jaco, as long as you have not made structural changes to the building or electrical installation you have not compromised anything. As a prospective buyer you are in your rights to uncover patent defects that have obviously been covered up to mislead you and create the scenario that what you are buying is in good order. The CPA has removed the "as-is" method of contracting out of risk. You are entitled to buy a house that is habitable and free of defects, especially if there is an estate agent involved. T
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