Scaffolding question
- Oupa Stig
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Scaffolding question
How high can I build scaffolding before needing someone to "sign off" on it to certify it as safe?
Here's the setup:
I am contracted to most home-owners insurance companies, major banks, SAHL, Outsurance etc.
On occasion high winds cause faciaboards to blow off. We are then required to replace and repair support structures as needed. On a single storey house this is simple, even at the ridges or highest points. You can work off a ladder, with one chap on the roof itself.
However, we often get jobs where the house is double storey, and here working off ladders becomes more of a safety issue, especially if I also have one guy up on the roof - things here can get very high, and if 8 to 9meters high does not sound high, you ain't been up on a double storey roof yet, leaning over the edge, trying to screw in lengths of wood... :wth:
And things get even worse at the eaves, where you are on the corner of the roof....
I refuse to let my guys do such dangerous work, so I end up wobbling around on the long ladder.
Swambo likes this not. And neither do I.
Obvious solution is to erect scaffolding, but that has implications as well, not least of which is costs, which have to be justified to the insurer, who is usually as tight-fisted as can be.
I need to know how high I am legally allowed to erect rented scaffolding (not quickset, proper scaffolding), before I am required to bring in qualified and certified scaffold erectors.
The guys who rent scaffolding simply do not care, amd the guys who erect for a fee will pet you pay them for a 2m high setup. Everyone in it for the bucks, no-one cares about the poor fool who has to wobble along on top of their darned scaffolding.
Because, frankly, if the insurer is not prepared to pay me for conforming to safety regs, then they must find someone else to do the job (which they will, and easily too, meaning I not only loose out on one job, but might also lose my position on the panel..)
The issue becomes one of economics: you needto erect 4k worth of "safe" scaffolding in order to do a 2k job...
Here's the setup:
I am contracted to most home-owners insurance companies, major banks, SAHL, Outsurance etc.
On occasion high winds cause faciaboards to blow off. We are then required to replace and repair support structures as needed. On a single storey house this is simple, even at the ridges or highest points. You can work off a ladder, with one chap on the roof itself.
However, we often get jobs where the house is double storey, and here working off ladders becomes more of a safety issue, especially if I also have one guy up on the roof - things here can get very high, and if 8 to 9meters high does not sound high, you ain't been up on a double storey roof yet, leaning over the edge, trying to screw in lengths of wood... :wth:
And things get even worse at the eaves, where you are on the corner of the roof....
I refuse to let my guys do such dangerous work, so I end up wobbling around on the long ladder.
Swambo likes this not. And neither do I.
Obvious solution is to erect scaffolding, but that has implications as well, not least of which is costs, which have to be justified to the insurer, who is usually as tight-fisted as can be.
I need to know how high I am legally allowed to erect rented scaffolding (not quickset, proper scaffolding), before I am required to bring in qualified and certified scaffold erectors.
The guys who rent scaffolding simply do not care, amd the guys who erect for a fee will pet you pay them for a 2m high setup. Everyone in it for the bucks, no-one cares about the poor fool who has to wobble along on top of their darned scaffolding.
Because, frankly, if the insurer is not prepared to pay me for conforming to safety regs, then they must find someone else to do the job (which they will, and easily too, meaning I not only loose out on one job, but might also lose my position on the panel..)
The issue becomes one of economics: you needto erect 4k worth of "safe" scaffolding in order to do a 2k job...
I feel a lot less wise at 45 than I did at 15.
- Mud Dog
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Re: Scaffolding question
Mickey, unfortunately that's the sad reality of it, they want the cheapest quote, irrespective. IIRC the safety regs kick in at a mere 1.2m off the deck (ladders included) and you may not self erect scaffold to put workers on it without a competency cert. Crazy, I know, but I've always just gone ahead on my own with the smaller jobs (up to four stories), insisting that any crew on the scaffold will wear harnesses and hard-hats. The purpose of doing this is to improve the safety factor but in addition, it looks more professional and if an inspector should happen to drive past, it looks to be legit. There have of course been many instances where I've called in the "pro's", but it's quoted for and the client understands the 'need' for it.
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- ChrisF
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Re: Scaffolding question
1,2m
most guys buy a few sets of scaffold and just get on with the job .... fun starts when somebody gets hurt on site !!
most guys buy a few sets of scaffold and just get on with the job .... fun starts when somebody gets hurt on site !!
- Mud Dog
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Re: Scaffolding question
Exactly, this is why one has to be extra careful and vigilant (private or contract scaffolding) because even though my regular guys have some level of safety training and get reminded EVERY time, they still take chances. :roll:ChrisF wrote:1,2m
most guys buy a few sets of scaffold and just get on with the job .... fun starts when somebody gets hurt on site !!
(90% of the time I'm up there with them as well.)
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
- Oupa Stig
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Re: Scaffolding question
Well, this is the thing: someone gets hurt.
Forget all the legal stuff, fact is, if I or one of my guys get hurt, we can not support our families. In fact, if one of my guys gets hurt on the job I'll have to continue to pay an unproductive employee until he's productive again, and legally he can bankrupt me if I did not adhere to all the safety regs, and having scaffolding put up by a pro is one of those regs. For a small operator like myself it is a nightmare, and yet I also hear too many horrorstories of guys getting hurt on the job and then being fired and not understanding their own legal recourse.
Point is, the insurers want me to do the job, they have to provide a safe environment for me to do it in, and if they are not prepared to use the money they take from their customers to provide a safe environmemt for their service providers, then they must find someone else to do the job. Me, I looked at my kids tonight, thinking about a 2bl storey booked for Friday, and decided I am no longer prepared to risk my neck in order to save a multibillion Rand company a few Rands.
Guess I'll be taking double-storey jobs off my menu...
Forget all the legal stuff, fact is, if I or one of my guys get hurt, we can not support our families. In fact, if one of my guys gets hurt on the job I'll have to continue to pay an unproductive employee until he's productive again, and legally he can bankrupt me if I did not adhere to all the safety regs, and having scaffolding put up by a pro is one of those regs. For a small operator like myself it is a nightmare, and yet I also hear too many horrorstories of guys getting hurt on the job and then being fired and not understanding their own legal recourse.
Point is, the insurers want me to do the job, they have to provide a safe environment for me to do it in, and if they are not prepared to use the money they take from their customers to provide a safe environmemt for their service providers, then they must find someone else to do the job. Me, I looked at my kids tonight, thinking about a 2bl storey booked for Friday, and decided I am no longer prepared to risk my neck in order to save a multibillion Rand company a few Rands.
Guess I'll be taking double-storey jobs off my menu...
I feel a lot less wise at 45 than I did at 15.
- ChrisF
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Re: Scaffolding question
Mickey the other option is to invest in the training to be able to officialy erect scaffolding legally, and to be able to sign it off.
small investment for a large return :)
now maybe one of the members can help guide you to a place that can provide you with this training and accreditation.
small investment for a large return :)
now maybe one of the members can help guide you to a place that can provide you with this training and accreditation.
- ChrisF
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Re: Scaffolding question
hope this helps :
http://www.sascaffolding.co.za/index.ph ... &Itemid=28" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.safetytraining.co.za/courses ... 20Training" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thetrainingacademy.co.za/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.sascaffolding.co.za/index.ph ... &Itemid=28" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.safetytraining.co.za/courses ... 20Training" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thetrainingacademy.co.za/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Mud Dog
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Re: Scaffolding question
I see Chris posted while I was typing ........ and having some coffee ....
Another option is to do the accreditation course yourself, but it's not just a once of thing as I understand ... one has to do annual refreshers and of course there are costs. If the amount of elevated work you do warrants the extra effort and cost, then do it. For me it was never worth it, especially since these updated regs are fairly new (last 5 / 6 years or so), and I've scaled down a lot since then - probably only do two or three scaffolds a year now, most of which are two storey only.
Another option is to do the accreditation course yourself, but it's not just a once of thing as I understand ... one has to do annual refreshers and of course there are costs. If the amount of elevated work you do warrants the extra effort and cost, then do it. For me it was never worth it, especially since these updated regs are fairly new (last 5 / 6 years or so), and I've scaled down a lot since then - probably only do two or three scaffolds a year now, most of which are two storey only.
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
- ChrisF
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Re: Scaffolding question
Andy not sure how involved you still are.
The "beloved" HSE (health and safety) guys are going to be MUCH more important from next year !! The new construction regs calls for REGISTERED HSE guys to runs virtually all projects, much more involved than just the old HSE report ....
we are yet one step closer to the European model of a few years back already. good for safety, not so for productivity ....
The "beloved" HSE (health and safety) guys are going to be MUCH more important from next year !! The new construction regs calls for REGISTERED HSE guys to runs virtually all projects, much more involved than just the old HSE report ....
we are yet one step closer to the European model of a few years back already. good for safety, not so for productivity ....
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Re: Scaffolding question
Isn't it cheaper on the long run to buy your own?
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Re: Scaffolding question
the problem with the regs is that is must be checked and signed off before EACH use - this is why we recommend he attend the training to be able to sign off himself.
fine for the large companies. Absolute PAIN and totally unaffordable for the small guys.
using your own, or using rented scaffold makes no difference to the legal process.
fine for the large companies. Absolute PAIN and totally unaffordable for the small guys.
using your own, or using rented scaffold makes no difference to the legal process.
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Re: Scaffolding question
Eish, where are the days when you could just pitch a scaffold and do your work?
The aim of some of these laws seem to try and make it impossible to do anything.
The aim of some of these laws seem to try and make it impossible to do anything.
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- ChrisF
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Re: Scaffolding question
two sides to this coin ....
during a recent project we were involved in TWO people died ! (part of the builders team, not our guys)
These new safety rules aims to reduce deaths on sites - so surely not a bad idea ...
BUT, not cost effective for the small projects !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THIS is the challange going forward - finding a balance between project costs and safety ...
during a recent project we were involved in TWO people died ! (part of the builders team, not our guys)
These new safety rules aims to reduce deaths on sites - so surely not a bad idea ...
BUT, not cost effective for the small projects !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THIS is the challange going forward - finding a balance between project costs and safety ...
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Re: Scaffolding question
as soon as your guys are 1.2 off the floor they need working at heights certification
you will need 1 of your guys to have a erector certificate
and you will need a inspector certificate
call mike
Mike Saunders
Senior SHE Advisor
MS Occupational Health & Safety Services
P.O. Box 4762
Brits 0250
079 466 4466
086 611 6730
you will need 1 of your guys to have a erector certificate
and you will need a inspector certificate
call mike
Mike Saunders
Senior SHE Advisor
MS Occupational Health & Safety Services
P.O. Box 4762
Brits 0250
079 466 4466
086 611 6730
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Re: Scaffolding question
So you can qualify yourself with and erector certificate. Then buy your own scaffolding and then you can do your own erections ?you will need 1 of your guys to have a erector certificate
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Re: Scaffolding question
pietpetoors wrote:So you can qualify yourself with and erector certificate. Then buy your own scaffolding and then you can do your own erections ?you will need 1 of your guys to have a erector certificate
I though men were born with ERCTORS certificates do do our own erections.
(haal maar af as dit onvanpas is en onsmaaklik.) - maar net n grappie
- Oupa Stig
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Re: Scaffolding question
Cost effective....
When I have to go and replace 3 or 4 facias maybe once a month or every two months, with a profit of perhaps R1000 per job...
Frankly, I don't mind the rules and regs, safety is after all important, but what it means is that I lose the business. If that was all that I do I'd set myself up in a blink with certificate, scaffolding, but fortunately I have enough other work not to want to do work at a loss.
Problem is when you turn work away from the insurers, they twke note and then stop giving you other work.
Essentially they force you to do dangerous stuff in order to save them money. But if you get hurt while saving them money, then you are on your own. The industry is quite cutthroat, and they'll always find another guy who's prepared to take the risk. Then all business goes to him.
When I have to go and replace 3 or 4 facias maybe once a month or every two months, with a profit of perhaps R1000 per job...
Frankly, I don't mind the rules and regs, safety is after all important, but what it means is that I lose the business. If that was all that I do I'd set myself up in a blink with certificate, scaffolding, but fortunately I have enough other work not to want to do work at a loss.
Problem is when you turn work away from the insurers, they twke note and then stop giving you other work.
Essentially they force you to do dangerous stuff in order to save them money. But if you get hurt while saving them money, then you are on your own. The industry is quite cutthroat, and they'll always find another guy who's prepared to take the risk. Then all business goes to him.
I feel a lot less wise at 45 than I did at 15.
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Re: Scaffolding question
Kyk na Skyjack se AM Reeks, dis 'n eenmalige uitgawe en hulle kan die operateur oplei en sertifiseer. Dis lekker kompak en hoort by die meeste plekke te kan bykom. En dis veiliger as scaffolding.
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Re: Scaffolding question
i'm planning to do my home renovation myself with my dad, and buddies who are in the building trade.
do i still have to go thru all this safety signoff stuff for scaffolding ?
do i still have to go thru all this safety signoff stuff for scaffolding ?
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Re: Scaffolding question
Shaakir, single, and even double storey with rented scaffolding is usually OK, especially if the ground is fairly level. But then the issue becomes if someone gets hurt you can get into trouble if not using certified scaffolding etc. It boils down to common sense, and not letting someone else work where you yourself is not prepared to work/feel unsafe.
I feel a lot less wise at 45 than I did at 15.
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Re: Scaffolding question
YES !dalkill wrote:i'm planning to do my home renovation myself with my dad, and buddies who are in the building trade.
do i still have to go thru all this safety signoff stuff for scaffolding ?
The fact is you have just described - "Minor building work", thus municipal plans are required. And this means you MUST work in accordance with the SA National Building Regulations.
"who" does the actual work is of no concern to the regulators. They still insist the work be done to code.
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Re: Scaffolding question
exactlypietpetoors wrote:So you can qualify yourself with and erector certificate. Then buy your own scaffolding and then you can do your own erections ?you will need 1 of your guys to have a erector certificate
you can have your guys do working at heights (minimal costs involved)
you are then scaffold erector
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if you want to change this to recovered , first recover me - and have a relevant picture / foto to prove it !
ADVANCED 4x4 DRIVER COURSES DONE : US 254135 / US 254154
(STILL AWAITING SO-CALLED TETA CERTIFICATION VIA THE SERVICE PROVIDER AFRICAN OFF-ROAD ACADEMY - WHAT A JOKE)