Types of regulators

[ChrisF]

Types of regulators - Shunt charge vs MPP

Shunt charge regulators takes the volts and current from the solar panel, then “throw away” the excess volts, and keeps the current constant

MPP solar regulators – this type of regulator uses the total input power from the solar panel, then puts out a lower voltage and HIGHER current. Thereby keeping losses to a minimum.


This sounds like a lot of sales burble ….


The photo below confirms the following data:
From solar panel 16,37V and 3,25A
After MPP regulator 12,69 V and 3,79A

For this data the MPP regulator has an efficiency of 90,4%.

Under the same conditions a shunt charge regulator would only have been 77,5% effective.


The net result is that you can potentially get 72W from an 80W solar panel under ideal conditions with a MPP regulator. While a mere 62W is available from a shunt charge regulator !!

[ChrisF]

tried something else .... :)

I use a 60W incandescent globe and an inverter as a controlled load.

Switching this on, the volts drop almost 0,1V - as expected.

the MPP charger "sees" this and the current jumps up. :) :)


Preliminary finding - late afternoon sun, on a cloudy day and the 80W panel can easily supply power for the NL Weekender AND still push 1,5A into the battery. :) :)





Would need a standard regulator to test this ON vs OFF load charging .....

[Johan Kriel]

Good work!! . So the ctek 250 was a good choice

[ChrisF]

hehehe ....


well at least now I KNOW that a dc-dc charger (MPP regulator) WORKS !! :)





will have to wait for a day of SUN to do the test I have planned ....


did some other stuff today, so have not started with the mounting structure for the panels.

[Froll]

Very interesting Chris. Make some choices for some of us easier to decide on what to do.

[ChrisF]

right now it is still HEAVILY overcast in Bellville - still getting 0,25A into the battery from a single 80W panel. This with early morning sun and the panel placed horizontally (as it would be on the top of the bakkie)

[Hoppy]

Waneer bou julle slim ouens vir ons n mer bekostigbare DC/DC unit, die components kan nie so duur wees nie?

[ChrisF]

vra ek ook !!!


HCdP is amper daar .... nou moet hulle nog net die kapasiteite reg kry.




Die resep:
- DC-DC charger (alternator input)
- Solar input
- 220V mains input
- monitor the inputs and then charge the battery from the best input.
- variable maximum charge current, from 10 to 30A, depending on the need for fast charge vs battery life
- might as well add a 300W inverter into this unit with a 220V output ....



HCdP already has a single unit with all these features, pity the currents are way too low, and it is PRICY !!


waars die elektoniese manne ?? KOMAAN hier is n lekker besigheids geleentheid. :)

[4x4Maniac]

Ek het nog altyd gedink as mens die regte regulator het, dat jy n beter charge kan kry en amps kan opstoot. Dis maklike wiskunde. Se jy het 80kw paneel en kry so 70kw op n reendag as jy 12.5V kan handhaaf met die regulator gaan jy 5.6 amps kry. As jy n goedkoop regulator gebruik wat werk teen se 16V dan kry jy slegs 4.375 amps.

Watse goeie regulators stel jy voor wat MPP is?

[ChrisF]

Werner as jy bietjie Google sal jy sien al die beter make het die "shunt regulators", en dan as die prys op gaan sien jy die MPP regulators ....

My keuse was baie makliker - ek wou n eenheid gebruik wat beide alternator en solar inputs het. Tans is dit net die Ctek250 S Dual en HCdP wat die eenhede het.


HCdP kan ek net van Joburg af bestel, en dit het n baie hoe 30A laai stroom

Ctek se eenheid is op enige rak beskikbaar, en dit het n maksimum laai stroom van 20A.


soos die fotos wys het ek toe gegaan vir die Ctek eenheid.


PS - Ctek se pryse het in Januarie opgegaan !! Laas jaar kon jy nog maklik die eenheid teen R2800 kry, nou sukkel jy om dit vir minder as R3 300 te kry. Johan Tires het vir my n GOEIE prys gekry :) :)

[ChrisF]

nog lekker bewolk hier.


met die son steeds agter die wolke lewer die 80W paneel 1,25A na die battery.


Die paneel is steeds horisontaal en die oggend son skyn nou teen omtrent 45 grade op die paneel - dus swak toestande, soos wat dit sal wees as die paneel op die dakrak lê.


met die twee 80W panele kan ek dus die yskas se krag lewer teen die swak toestande :) :) :) hierna is alles net n bonus.

[4x4Maniac]

Chris, hoeveel amps trek jou yskas, en watse maak/grootte is dit?

Dink jy nie dalk 80w is meer as genoeg nie, al is dit bewolk?

[george]

Chris, hoeveel amps trek jou yskas, en watse maak/grootte is dit?

Dink jy nie dalk 80w is meer as genoeg nie, al is dit bewolk?

Ek het 'n 40 lt Engel met 'n 90amp battery en 'n 80watt paneel endit was nie genoeg om hom gevries te hou vir 'n onbepaalde tyd nie.Het wel 'n ekstra paar dae te gee.

[ChrisF]

Werner DIT is hoekom ek nou die toetse doen.


Party sê dat n 80W goed genoeg is .... maar dan praat hulle ook van rondloop in die kamp op soek na son kolle om die paneel te rig op die son ... Ek wil nie my vakansie tys spandeer om agter n paneel aan te stap nie


my VERMOEDE is dat n 80W paneel voldoende sal wees, al is dit permanent op n dakrak vas gemaak - hier in ons klimaat. Hier raak dit selde meer as 30 grade, en dan ook maar net vir n paar uur - en op daai dae het jy in elk geval baie son.

In Kgalagadi en Namibie is die somer temperature daagliks mid 40s en die nag temperature bly tot laat bo 30 grade !!! Dan loop daai yskas omtrent heeldag. In daai toestande moet ek omtrent heeldag 70W laai .... en as die paneel nie dan agter die son aangedra gaan word nie, gaan dit maar bars ....


MAAR, hoe meer mens ry met n DC-DC charger hoe minder afhanklik is mens van die solar, so daar is NIE n enkel antwoord vir almal nie !!


Ons het n NL Weekender. Dit trek 2,5A. Ek laai ook die laptop en kamera batterye van die 2de battery af.




PS - ek het die 80W paneel teen R11/W +VAT gekry. n enkel 120 of 130W paneel sou my meer kos as die twee 80W panele .....

[ChrisF]

Chris, hoeveel amps trek jou yskas, en watse maak/grootte is dit?

Dink jy nie dalk 80w is meer as genoeg nie, al is dit bewolk?

Ek het 'n 40 lt Engel met 'n 90amp battery en 'n 80watt paneel endit was nie genoeg om hom gevries te hou vir 'n onbepaalde tyd nie.Het wel 'n ekstra paar dae te gee.

jip, soos per my vorige post kan die 80W paneel net te lig wees - onder warm toestande ......


George wat se tipe regulator het jy gebruik ??

[george]

George wat se tipe regulator het jy gebruik ??

Hi Chris.
Ek het die 30A Stecca.Ek het die een net met die LED liggies gekoop en nie die een met die LCD "display" nie.Dit was 'n fout want ek kon nooit sien hoe goed hy charge nie.

[4x4Maniac]

Dankie George en Chris.

Ek dink ook dit is n beter opsie om 2 klein panele te kry ipv een groot een, makliker om te dra, te skuif en as hy val en breek, dan het jy nog een en goedkoper om te vervang. Die enigste probleem wat ek sien, is om beide panele op die dakrak te monteer, wanneer jy ry. Of is die beste maar eerder om slegs een te monteer, en net die ander een te koppel as jy lank staan.

[ChrisF]

Die 80W paneel kan gemaklik dwars op die Hilux pas, so dit vat nie regtig so baie plek nie.

ons het n enkel kajuit bakkie, dus n lang canopy.

Ek gaan die twee panele in die lengte monteer - dan verskaf dit sommer n bietjie skaduwee vir die canopy :)


HOPELIK is die twee panele goed genoeg dat ek nie panele hoef rond te skuif agter die son aan nie .... DIT, sal ek eers kan sien wanneer ons weer in Namibie is ....

[GI Jane]

Chris sien die weer werk nie met jou die naweek... Gaan die week weskus toe en gaan my solar panel setup toets om te sien of hy my batterye en yskas aan die gang gaan hou... Probeer my beste om te verstaan wat julle ouens hier verduidelik... Nog nie n ctek aangeskaf nie maar na die week en al julle verduidelikings hopelik sal ek an idee he. Gaan Maart maand Kalahari toe en so wil graag my solar panel, battery ens... reg he om vir 3 weke sonder elektriese krag reg te kom...

[george]

Chris what do you use for 220v

[Johan Kriel]

Ek skat n 80 watt behoort so om en by 30 Ah gemiddeld per dag te lewer 'fixed' gemonteer, maar laat Chris se toetse ons vertel.

Dit is 30/24 uur is 1.27 A, wat dalk net net nie, of net net, genoeg is vir n 40l yskas oor 24 uur. Geen buffer kapasiteit nie. My gevoel is mens moet ten minste kyk na 130+Watt, dan kan jy seker wees 90% van die tyd is jy ok, in alle omstandighede. In die winter kan 80watt dalk werk want die yskas loop baie minder alhoewel die dae korter is.

[ChrisF]

Val wat het jy als in jou bakkie :
- yskas ?
- vrieskas ?
- inverter vir kamera en laptop ?
- paar LED ligte ?
- wat nog ???

en dan die GROOT vraag - hoeveel gaan julle RY ? die sports begin as jy vir n 2de en derde dag stil staan .....

vir EEN 105 Ah battery, wat EEN yskas, inverter en ligte aandryf is die Ctek 250 S en n solar panel die antwoord.


die grootte van die paneel hang af van hoe lank jy wil stil staan ..... 80W is net net groot genoeg vir meeste mense ..... ek is nie lus vir sukkel nie (en met medisyne in die yskas kan ek nie kanse vat nie!)


WAAR is jou tweede battery ?? Onthou die kommentaar oor die laaistelsels wat ophou werk wanneer dit te warm raak onder die engin kap .... Dit sal help om die laaier onder die cubby-hole te sit ... maar die laaier se sensor sal steeds meet dat die battery (engine bay) te warm is en die laai stroom afbring .....

[SuidWes]

Hi Chris,

Good setup and thanks for sharing.

Since I started using solar on trips a couple of years ago I've not had issues with flat batteries, etc. Not sure if I shared the attached before but it shows what to expect from a 55W panel and a normal 6.6 steca regulator.

I'm now using a 80W panel with a 10A Phocos regulator and it is brilliant


Cheers,
Jaco

[ChrisF]

Chris what do you use for 220v

George when we arive at a powered site I can plug into mains power. This automatically does the following:

- switch the NL fridge to mains

- use the Benton BX2 to charge the battery (will disconnect this once the solar and Ctek is installed)


In terms of using 220V. Only the laptop that is charged from an inverter. I have 12V chargers for the camera batteries.

[SuidWes]

The panel recieved about 8hrs sunlight and was not moved during the day. Fridge was a 40l Engel and the battery was a 102 ah high cycle :)

[ChrisF]

stil cloudy ...., but at least this gives me an opportunity to play and test some more ... :)

At the moment we have a thick set of clouds, and every so often it gets very bright, even though the cloud cover is not broken. During these bright light periods the TWO panels kick out 95W, after the Ctek 86W is supplied to the battery (almost 91% efficiency).


when the clouds thicken and it goes dark again the charge current drops to 2A (still with 160W solar panels)


these values with an angle of about 25 degrees from vertical onto the solar panels



Pity I dont have access to a data logger ..... would be interesting to see the actuall total energy over the full day. At the moment a conservative GUESS would be about 2,5 to 3A average for the day. Not bad for a cloudy day, BUT not enough to keep the battery charged - will need about 1 hours worth of drive to top up the rest.

NOT BAD, considering these are most unfavourable conditions :)

[GI Jane]

Val wat het jy als in jou bakkie :vir die week vat ek my 4x4 trailer. In hom het ek 2 x 105a deepcycles, n national luna 'ding' wat se hoe vol die batterye is, n 90l NL fridge freezer, n paar led lights in die trailer, 130 watt solar panel en solar charge regulator/controller and km's of kable vir die solar paneel.
In my bakkie setup as ek nie die trailer by het nie, die agter sitplek uit, het ek n 40l engel, 115amp probe battery (dink nie dis die deepcycle, dis daai ander cycle, in a 12v snowmaster battery box, met baie plekke in hom vir plugs, yskas, inverter, het n paar los led ligte wat ek kan inplug etc.., hy is gekoppel aan my main battery en dan ook die solar paneel wat ek daar kan aankoppel. Het n inverter vir laptop en kamera batterye..
- yskas ?
- vrieskas ?
- inverter vir kamera en laptop ?
- paar LED ligte ?
- wat nog ???

en dan die GROOT vraag - hoeveel gaan julle RY ? die sports begin as jy vir n 2de en derde dag stil staan .....
ek vat nie die trailer saam kalahari toe so dis net die setup in my bakkie. Ons gaan baie rondry, so ek wil my solar paneel op my canopy dak vasmaak, en dit lyk my ek moet die ctek koop, want ons sal al ons kos moet saam vat.
vir EEN 105 Ah battery, wat EEN yskas, inverter en ligte aandryf is die Ctek 250 S en n solar panel die antwoord.


die grootte van die paneel hang af van hoe lank jy wil stil staan ..... 80W is net net groot genoeg vir meeste mense ..... ek is nie lus vir sukkel nie (en met medisyne in die yskas kan ek nie kanse vat nie!)


WAAR is jou tweede battery ?? Onthou die kommentaar oor die laaistelsels wat ophou werk wanneer dit te warm raak onder die engin kap .... Dit sal help om die laaier onder die cubby-hole te sit ... maar die laaier se sensor sal steeds meet dat die battery (engine bay) te warm is en die laai stroom afbring .....

My tweede battery in my bakkie setup is in by agter sitplek vasgemaak lanks die yskas wat ook in die agterste sitplekke is, so sal seker die ctek daar erens moet sit

[GI Jane]

Chris the battery I have in the snowmaster battery box looks like the one in your photo, but I see that this thread is about regulators, do I have to get that as well as the ctek dc -dc charger... The solar panel came with a 10v controller is that the same thing? Also what 12v charger do you have for your camera batteries, I have lots of spare camera batteries, so have never needed to charge camera batteries on a trip, but as they get older they lose charge quicker so may need to look at that, is it not a good idea to use the inverter.... My laptop battery also does not last that long any more, so does the inverter use up a lot of the battery charge, and how will the solar panel impact with that..

[ChrisF]

Val n Ctek en daai 130W paneel en jy is SORTED vir daai trippie !! :) Jy kan selfs me Family-Dog gesels oor sy 30A DC-DC charger ... hy soek juis iemand wat dit kan TOETS, en die sal n lekker toets wees.

NEE, die Ctek het nie n ekstra regulator nodig nie (en tog will daai groot nsionale 4x4 verspreider in Somerset Wes n regulator saam met die Ctek verkoop !!)

MAAR as jy FD se DC-DC charger gebruik sal jy wel n regulator nodig hê (sal nog steeds goedkoper uitwerk)


Ek gebruik n Hahnell Power Station PRO V Twin eenheid om die battery te laai in die 4x4. Dit kan 220V of 12V inset vat. en kan tot twee batterye op n slag laai. Dit het verskillende "base" plate, en kan verskillende batterye laai.


O-ja, die feit dat jou yskas IN die bakkie is, is GOED. Die bakkie se aircon beteken dat jou yskas minder werk as myne wat agter in die warm canopy is .... Die meer gematigde temperatuur beteken ook dat die battery vinniger kan laai.

[GI Jane]

Val n Ctek en daai 130W paneel en jy is SORTED vir daai trippie !! :) Jy kan selfs me Family-Dog gesels oor sy 30A DC-DC charger ... hy soek juis iemand wat dit kan TOETS, en die sal n lekker toets wees.

NEE, die Ctek het nie n ekstra regulator nodig nie (en tog will daai groot nsionale 4x4 verspreider in Somerset Wes n regulator saam met die Ctek verkoop !!)

MAAR as jy FD se DC-DC charger gebruik sal jy wel n regulator nodig hê (sal nog steeds goedkoper uitwerk)


Ek gebruik n Hahnell Power Station PRO V Twin eenheid om die battery te laai in die 4x4. Dit kan 220V of 12V inset vat. en kan tot twee batterye op n slag laai. Dit het verskillende "base" plate, en kan verskillende batterye laai.


O-ja, die feit dat jou yskas IN die bakkie is, is GOED. Die bakkie se aircon beteken dat jou yskas minder werk as myne wat agter in die warm canopy is .... Die meer gematigde temperatuur beteken ook dat die battery vinniger kan laai.

Chris ek het n Benton BX-2 charger wat ek laas by Erik gehoop het, waarmee ek my batterye laai, hy werk uitsteken.. Dink ek sal met n ctek loop soos ek na Tonto en jou poste kyk.. lyk vir my die minder ingewikkelde stelsel... Die goed maak my genuine deurmekaar, al lees ek die poste oor en oor,,, soek die maklikste, mees automatieste stelsel... hoe minder boksies, en goed, en drade hoe beter..

[The Legend]

Hi Chris
Ek gebruik tans n 10A regulator op my sonpaneel.Sal daar enige voordeel wees indien ek n 30A regulator sou gebruik?

[ChrisF]

Dawie die verskil is tussen "Shunt" tipe en die MPP tipe.

n 10A MPP tipe sal beter wees as n 30A Shunt tipe



kan ook bysê, dit is raadsaam om DUBBEL die kapasiteit te hê - vir n 80W paneel dus ten minste n 10A eenheid

[ChrisF]

so when is your battery fully charged ???


been surfing the web in search of some info, then found these two sites:

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Batter ... tm#Battery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Voltages

http://www.trojanbattery.com/batterymai ... sting.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


PUNCH LINE :

12V and you need to make a plan to get that battery CHARGED !!

11,7 V and most fridges will cut, but by this time the battery has already taken a hammering .....

[Froll]

very interesting that table.

[Haboob]

SHORT version - solar enerrgy comes at a premium and we NEED every "watt" we can get out in the buch to keep our refreshments cold.


MPPT is more expensive, BUT it is MUCH more effiecient than the cheaper shunt type regulators !!


The Ctek 250 S Dual is definately one of the best units out there !! and YES, it is a MPPT solar regulator, and then of course it is also a DC-DC charger. Not cheap, but definately a great buy

Thanks Chris, now how do you connect the C-Tek D 250 S, so that it can also use Mains to help charge your batteries when they they are available in a camp site. I do not want to take off solar panels in a campsite and be following the sun around on my OFF DAY, where I have electricity available.
i.e. You do not sit outside barking all night if you have a dog...This is what the dog is for.
This is my biggest concern with the C-Tek D 250 S, but Warwick Leslie from Alu-Cab in Cape Town, has told me that he has been told by C-Tek that you can add this to one of their other models & run them together. I then presume that the feed in from the Alternator/Solar Panel can be connected together with the electrical feed out of one of their other models, so that if the alternator /Solar Panel is not working, then the feed through one of their other models from 220 v through the charger & instead of feeding to the batteries, then goes through the C-Tek D 250 S to the batteries. IS THIS CORRECT, OR HOW DO YOU CHAPS DO THIS? Please HELP.

[ChrisF]

two options comes to mind -

1) I can use a bedlamp type switch in the line from the solar panel to the Ctek. Switch this OFF, and then connect the mains charger.

BUT, now there are more things to remember ... more to get wrong in the haste of packing up camp ....


2) I am considering using a 220V relay. The wire from the solar will then run through a "Normally closed contact" of this relay. Connect the vehicle to mains, and the follwoing happens automatically:
- fridge switches to 220V
- relay disconnects the solar
- mains charger tops up the battery

and when the mains is switched off, everything automatically switches back to "12V mode"

[Haboob]

Hi Chris,
Warwick Lesley from Alu Cab in Cape Town says that he spoke to the C-tek agents & they say that if the D 250 S is connected up in conjunction with one of their other models, then you can work it through 220 v when in a camp site with power. I do not want to park in the sun when in a camp site with power or have to take off solar panels to set up in the sun. Do you know anything about this?
Please help as I need to do something in relation to my charging problems in the next few days. Thanx, Edge

[ChrisF]

Edge I dont know ....


IF I dont get a firm answer before our trip I will do the following (if needed) :

- disconnect the solar
- connect the 220V, which will run my fridge and charge the battery


BUT, I would prefer an automated solution.


For about R150 I can auto disconnect the solar system, using a 220V relay .... BUT, I dont know if it is safe to leave the solar panels "open circuit" for long periods possibly even in full sun.

I would appreciate it if somebody can give me a firm answer regarding leaving solar panels "open circuit" in full sun. The 20V posses minimal risk, but I dont know if the panel can sustain some damage ..... my guess is no it wont, but I would prefer confirmation of this before mounting the relay.

[Johan Kriel]

If solar panels are connected to the ctek 250 and and you connect at 220V ctek, they wil maybe cofuse each other a bit, as they will not be able to see the battery volts but rather each others volt I think at times, but that's it. They will stil charge, if the one sees high volts it will tapers off while the other is still charging.

But if one connect the solar to the ctek with a BH plug or simalar one can pull it out when connecting the 220v charger. but I like Chris' idea with a relay (12v?) that's powered form the 220v charger to disconnect the solars.

[ChrisF]

Johan do you have any opinion/knowledge on what would/could happen if a solar panel is in full sun but "open circuit" (disconnected from the regulator) ? ? ?

[Johan Kriel]

Chris, nothing. No harm. Like a battery only supply when connected. But have a life span of 25?, or what ever, years.

I have 3 water pump installations controlled by float switches to switch off the pump when the reservoir is full. Sometimes off for many weeks. Oldest one can be eight years new. That is 2 x 210 Watt solars with a grundfos sqf pump.

[ChrisF]

BAIE DANKIE !! :)


Now to get that relay ... then I can plug into camp mains and dont have remember this or that switch ...... BUT if this works the way I hope, I wont be needing camp mains :) :)

[Haboob]

Hi Chris,
I want to know how you connect the D 250 S, so that you can use the Power Point when in a campsite with electricity. First Geer (Tony) is going to assist me with the connection, but says that he will need to speak to someone who knows a bit more than me, before attempting something like this for the first time. I do have a C-tek charger, but now want to upgrade to the D 250 S. I have been told by Warwick Lesley from Alu-Cab in Cape Town, that I can run the D 250 S in conjunction withe the other C-tek, to enable us to be able to plug into a Power Point, when in a camp site with 220 v power. Unfortunately Warwick is away for a few weeks, & I need to get the system into the vehicle for a test run for the long week-end, from 20 to 24/03/2013, before I go away on leave during May, 2013. Can Tony phone you to get clarity on the above matter, before attempting the fitting of the D 2540 S ? If this is affirmative, please email or sms me your Cell number.
Thanking you in anticipation,
Edge (Haboob)
edgew60@gmail.com
082 441 9244

[ChrisF]

Edge I sent you an email :)

[ChrisF]

Have a look at the Ctek layout attached – I worked exactly to this.

Alternator to Ctek
Solar to ctek
Ctek to battery


My bakkie has a “caravan plug” – for use at camp sites. Inside the bakkie is a multiplug to distribute this power.

One plug goes to the National Luna fridge (which automatically disconnects itself from the 12V supply)

The other plug supplies TWO items:
1) The Benton charger
2) A 220V relay which disconnects the solar feed from the Ctek

This way everything switches automatically when 220V is available, AND switches back automatically when the 220V is removed. :)


The relay is rated for 10A … but it looks a bit “light” … will keep an eye on this. (my neighbour is an electrician and swears it will work ...) At least I can bypass this in a few seconds ….

[ChrisF]

while I was having fun I added a 10W 12V flood light ....

this is mounted temporarily while in camp, a 30second screw in mount. it can be turned to light up in different directions. :)

[Haboob]

Thanks again Chris, Tony now says that he has a good idea on how to do the connection, which will be done on Saturday morning. Now how do you connect the C-tek battery monitoring system, so I can see how much power I have in the respective batteries?

[ChrisF]

now that one I cant help you with :)


I use the LED indicator on my National Luna fridge ....

[Haboob]

Chris, is this the double layer of LED lights that show the amount of charge in the two batteries?

[ChrisF]

Edge that is the NL battery level indicator you can buy at 4x4 shops.


The NL fridge comes standard with a single row of LED lights to indicate the battery level :)

[Haboob]

Re: Types of regulators
Edge that is the NL battery level indicator you can buy at 4x4 shops.

Chris, I found out from a friend of mine in Kimberley how to connect this NL battery level indicator. By removing the plug in connector from the indicator & looking at the indicator plug with the two plastic guides facing upwards, the plug has four wires.
Starting from your left,
the first will be to the P output to the D 250 S
the second will be to the N output to the D 250 S
the third will be to the N output to the D 250 S
the fourth will be to the P input to the D 250 S

The system now works automatically. Plug into 220 v and the lot works through the 220 v charger. Through the Solar Panel & the alternator when not on 220 v . The connections were made for me by First Geer (Tony) on the forum. He first had it connected as you said on the forum with a 220 v relay. This however only got me charging on .9 v on 220 v power supply. We then saw this guy from Kimberley who showed us how it should be connected, which Tony then did right there by removing the 220 v relay by changing a wire or two & got the system up & running. If you contact him on the forum, he will be able to tell you exactly how he did it. Thanks for your help. My system is now up & running with the battery monitor working.