Worn Belt Pulley?

the BuTch3R · Post by **the BuTch3R** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:51 am

Gents, I need some input here.

I've got a bit of a "rolling/knocking" noise coming from somewhere in the vicinity of the gearbox. (std 4Y)
The sound is bad in the morning and then quiets down as the bakkie warms up, but not completely.
Depressing the Clutch while in neutral does not affect the sound, but it does seem a little louder during the "clutch control" stage of accelerating.
Was thinking it may be the Thrust bearing that needs replacing. Clutch is still good and strong though.

Any thoughts?

the BuTch3R · Post by **the BuTch3R** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:09 pm

Popped in by the local mechanic. He recons the Clutch is fine and that the "grinding" noise i'm hearing is most probably the Belt Pulley that has packed up (He showed me the pulley has a slight wobble) or maybe even the water pump. Has anyone seen this before. These symptoms?

Either way I'm booking it in for next week. Hope it lasts 'til then. Also hope it does not prove to be a very pricey repair. :|

Post by **Mud Dog** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:22 pm

If it's just the tensioner pulley bearings it's no biggie. I did mine about a year or two ago, cost me about R60 and a half hour of my time.

Sifu-Lux · Post by **Sifu-Lux** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:46 pm

Hopefully its not the crank pulley. Cost me R1100 to replace on my 4Y, but cured the big oil leak I had on the front crank oil seal from the pulley wobbling due to the old keyway being worn and then badly repaired by the previous owner.

the BuTch3R · Post by **the BuTch3R** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:11 pm

Thanks for the optimism Andy, but I don't think I'm gonna be that lucky.

Andrew, your scenario sounds more like it could be my problem. :problem: I'm also using more oil than usual and it looks quite wet under the bottom pully (I assume this is the crank pully)

Did your's also make a nasty grinding type noise? R1100 is pretty steep, surely there's a decent pirate part that could work just as good. What does the job entail, is it a fairly simple swap for someone with limited experience....like me

Post by **Mud Dog** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:33 pm

Shaun, your picture does'nt show a major oil leak down there. Judging by what I can see, I don't think that's the problem. Do the tensioner pulley bearing like your local mech suggested (they can get quite noisy), since this would have to be done at some point anyway and is relatively cheap & easy to do. It may well be the source of the noise and save you a pretty penny.

Post by **CasKru** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:35 am

I nice trick to isolate the sound and find which bearing is noise (my guess is also the tensioner ) is take a pipe of some sort and hold the one end close to each pulley / tensioner and listen at the other end each time. You will be able to more accurately tell which one is making the noise.

PS: The pulleys generally don't have bearings of their own. They're just connected on a shaft to some internal bearing structure.

OOOOMS · Post by **OOOOMS** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:43 am

take a pipe of some sort and hold the one end close to each pulley / tensioner and listen

Tx Cassie, now that's a clever idea

Post by **Mud Dog** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:11 am

CasKru wrote:I nice trick to isolate the sound and find which bearing is noise (my guess is also the tensioner ) is take a pipe of some sort and hold the one end close to each pulley / tensioner and listen at the other end each time. You will be able to more accurately tell which one is making the noise.

PS: The pulleys generally don't have bearings of their own. They're just connected on a shaft to some internal bearing structure.

I use a doctors stethoscope, but with the diaphram head removed and replaced with a metal rod. If it's not available I use a long screwdriver or a plain metal rod.

The bearing on the 4y tensioners are replaceable (not integrated).

the BuTch3R · Post by **the BuTch3R** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:53 am

Thanks Andy. I'll give that a try.

By the way, the quality of the pic is not that great, but there is a bit (not too much) of oil where that botton pulley comes out of the block. This is also the pulley that is wobbling and that the mechanic suggested could be the problem. But I'll check out the tensioner anyway, before I start emptying my piggy bank

Sifu-Lux · Post by **Sifu-Lux** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:49 pm

Mine didn't make any grinding noises, so I would do as the others suggest and check the bearing on the idler pulley. Also check the aircon tensioner pulley bearing if you have A/C fitted.

I stripped my front timing cover off 3 times to sort the leak with new oil seals, silicone etc until I climbed under the bakkie one day with the engine running. I could see the run-out in the main crank pulley, but could never see the leak . The pulley was expensive, but worth the money as it fixed my problem after much work trying to sort it out, so I was happy.

Here you can see the oil running down from the seal.

If this is your problem, fit a new oil seal at the same time. Oil seal - otherwise #FS42/60/07

Post by **CasKru** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:51 am

And here is another tip. When installing new oil seals, use generous amounts of red rubber grease on the seal and on the shafts where it needs to seal. I always had issues with seals starting to leak again after only a few months untill I started using this stuff

the BuTch3R · Post by **the BuTch3R** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:51 am

Thanks for all the advice so far

Hope this info is useful to others as well.

Asterix · Post by **Asterix** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:01 pm

Cassie,

Thanks for the red rubber grease tip. I will definitely give that a try due to my poor sucess rate replacing oil seals :D

Post by **CasKru** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:10 pm

Asterix wrote:Cassie,

Thanks for the red rubber grease tip. I will definitely give that a try due to my poor sucess rate replacing oil seals :D

Pleasure. It is a bit pricey but considering the fact that is saves you on having to replace the seals again and the time spent, it is worth every sent. (IIRC it was R147)

the BuTch3R · Post by **the BuTch3R** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:33 am

The noisy pulley finally came to a complete standstill a few days ago

The noise had subsided altogether since my previous posts, but it suddenly returned, and much worse than before. When I noticed the pulleys slowing down (and stopping) with the motor still running, I realised there was a serious issue. :problem:

Got my buddy to tow me home (made sure nobody took any photos), popped the pulley off and my heart sank when I saw what the problem was.

It looks like due to poor workmanship on a previous repair, the keyway had worn loose and damaged the pulley........

: pulley

............as well as the crank

: crank

Fortunely, my good man Bretton was able to source some good organs from a matching donor (Dadz' old mouter) and we're in the process of prepping for the transplant, scheduled for this coming weekend.

: engine out

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:44 am

I've prep'd the donor organ pulley for transplant Shauny, it's a good one

Post by **Mud Dog** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:10 pm

What about the crank? You just gonna switch motors or transplant the crank.

If you do a transplant, just have the crank mic'ed up to check for any excessive wear .... there should'nt be, but just for peace of mind. Obviously then you're going to replace the crank bearings / big-end bearings / crank seals and you should be able to do the piston-rings from the bottom as well.

Asterix · Post by **Asterix** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:41 pm

Hi Shaun,

That is definitely a backyard job that went sour. The key is suppose to be made with a softer metal in order to shear without damaging the interface parts.

Good luck!

the BuTch3R · Post by **the BuTch3R** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:23 pm

Mud Dog wrote:What about the crank? You just gonna switch motors or transplant the crank.

If you do a transplant, just have the crank mic'ed up to check for any excessive wear .... there should'nt be, but just for peace of mind. Obviously then you're going to replace the crank bearings / big-end bearings / crank seals and you should be able to do the piston-rings from the bottom as well.

Yep. Crank transplant! Already have the new bearings and washers. Seals on order from the stealers.
Wasn't really considering doing the rings, but maybe worthwhile. seeing as the motor is already out...

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:28 pm

Mud Dog wrote:What about the crank? You just gonna switch motors or transplant the crank.

If you do a transplant, just have the crank mic'ed up to check for any excessive wear .... there should'nt be, but just for peace of mind. Obviously then you're going to replace the crank bearings / big-end bearings / crank seals and you should be able to do the piston-rings from the bottom as well.

Bretton lifted the crank from my old Jap 4Y and it's in outstanding condition.

I have the pulley that goes with that crank, it's on ice ready for the big op'

Young Shaun then spend his well earned pennies on good quality bearings and seals.

I agree, it would be a great idea to re-ring whilst everything's out hey Shauny

Mr_B · Post by **Mr_B** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:04 pm

Ummm... the pistons cannot be removed from the bottom(will take pics for you Andy to prove)! I asked Shaun about oil consumption/exhaust smoke before we started... and the HG... the engine has no oil consumption(or very little) and the HG is 100%... so I can see no need to redo rings, as this would entail a new HG and rings... etc... so we've opted for a bottom end job only... the donor crank is in excellent condition, the surfaces are 100%... I will mic them up on Sat just to be 100%... but it looks good! The previous rebuild did have a few issues, the intake/exhaust mani gasket was leaking on both sides badly... not sure how it was missed... the nuts securing the mani were definitely not torqued to spec... very loose!

If the rings/ head /hg eventually need a recon... this can be done in place(motor in vehicle)... very easily... unless a rebore is needed...

Let me tell you something... I'm very jealous of old 'not-so-noob'... for an oke with limited interest in the mechanical side of things ... he has, not one but 2 huge(read cavernous) garages that many of us can only dream about! I can only dream about space like that!

mr b

Mr_B · Post by **Mr_B** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:13 pm

Oh... besides the obviously crank damage... I think the wobble/ unbalanced rotation caused the thrust bearings to pack up... there hard chroming was chewed of... with the flakes evident at the bottom of the sump... looks like one or two on these bits got sucked into the oil channels, did a bit of damage to the big end bearing and journals of the old crank... observed from the bottom... the cylinder walls are still ok... no damage there... thank goodness!

mr b

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:42 pm

Just a word of Caution Manne. Once we unpack the donor organs we have very limited shelf time

Therefore it's imperative that Shaun has at least two ice cold six packs at the ready to compensate

the BuTch3R · Post by **the BuTch3R** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:54 pm

Moenie worrie Rich. There will be plenty of Coolant

speaking of which.....how much anti freeze do I actually need for Mr Roy?

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:17 pm

Not-so-Noob wrote:Moenie worrie Rich. There will be plenty of Coolant

speaking of which.....how much anti freeze do I actually need for Mr Roy?

6x Toyota 1 ltr Pink Coolant, +/- R35 per ltr from Stealers

R

Mr_B · Post by **Mr_B** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:07 pm

Thats a bargain Shaun... R35/ltr... Rich can you give the glycol content %... ?

mr b

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:42 pm

RustyRod wrote:
Rich can you give the glycol content %... ?

mr b

Doesn't say old chap

Just says:

"Genuine TOYOTA Pre-mixed Anti-rust Anti-freeze Super Long Life Coolant is a new generation ethylene glycol-based premium engine coolant, offering excellent corrosion protection ... blah blah blah fish paste.....

Not a bad price for a combi coolant I'd say

Mr_B · Post by **Mr_B** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:49 pm

Dadz Toy BFI wrote:Not a bad price for a combi coolant I'd say

Yes so it's ok for a VW... and a Toyota?

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:57 am

Mr B, Shaun and myself will be putting Rattling Rooi back together this weekend (minus the rattles), so do pray that the transplant goes to plan good Hilux Manne.

So far I'm struggling to find my spare pulley bolt so if anyone in Slaapies has one that they'd be happy to part with we'd sure appreciate it asblf

R

Post by **Family_Dog** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:24 pm

Rich, have you still not tidied up that back room of yours?

-F_D

Mr_B · Post by **Mr_B** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:52 pm

Found your bolt in my toolbox, it's damaged, allan has come 2 the rescue with gratis bolt! So we're ready to go!

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:16 am

Family_Dog wrote:Rich, have you still not tidied up that back room of yours?

-F_D

Got it nice and tidy - lasted a couple of months :roll:

Nou got the house on the market so maybe time to buy a bigger shovel

R

Post by **Family_Dog** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:13 pm

Where are you moving to - Klerksdorp?

-F_D

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:52 pm

Part 1 of 4

After packing the kidz off with Mum I eventually got my stuff together and sought out Mr.B and Not-so-noob Shaun at Shaun's cavernous workshop in Parow. The day was over cast with a strong wind but a strong UV count was evident - jeepers I thought I'm glad I'm indoors today not doing another desolate trail up the coast at the mercy of the baking sun and biting sand/sand flies :roll:

On my arrival at Parow, Mr.B and Shaun were well into navel contemplation and it wasn't long before Shaun declared that the "boeing had officially gone over"- hence the Amstel brewsky bottles in most of the peekchaz :shifty:

The donor Crankshaft was looking nice and shiny but Mr.B. discovered that he'd left the donor pulley on the matlepiece - moene wori - manyana

All went swimmingly well (pun intended), much lubrication and Forum type chat banded around, Bretton even got our old pal Andy (Mud Dog) on the phone for a little break-time natter - think he was just missing you Andy!

We all learnt a few tricks and shared the highs and highs of seeing Rattling Roy's heart surgery exude life.

As ever my Olympus was not too far away to document the action, peekchaz asblf, peekchaz!! :roll:

See the titles of the pics, hope they are sufficiently explanatory. :ugeek:

Enjoy

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:03 pm

Part 2 of 4

Mr.B. now getting into full swing, no Amstel Speak as yet.....

but the day was still fresh

See peekchaz No.4

- Those hands are like Lightning - KAT-CHOW :!: :!:

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:14 pm

Part 3 of 4

As the morning slipped into noon the braai was lit and Shaun's family and friends came out the woodwork to join in the banter and ask rather seriously observant questions - time for some Amstel speak Mr.B :shifty:

We were refreshed with some AWESOME burgers, Mr.B said they soaked up his liquid breakfast so well, it was time for......

MORE coolant

Post by **Mud Dog** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:18 pm

Tell me now, .... what's the point of cutting off the plug washers!!?? :?

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:24 pm

Part 4 of 4

The latter stages just continued to go swimmingly well....

must have been all that Coolant Mr.B.

I've gotta say that it's exercises like these that give me the most pleasure from being a member of this Forum.

Trails and GTG's are great but to see okes like Mr.B. so selflessly giving his time and expertise to help out another Forum Member with an otherwise horribly daunting and expensive predicament

Check Shaun's broad smile in pic no.3 ;

priceless :!:

This is not a just a Forum

It's a Freternity

OOOOMS · Post by **OOOOMS** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:27 pm

Lovely seeing Forum Members helping one another

BRILLIANT!!!! Absorlutely BRILLIANT!!!!!

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 pm

Mud Dog wrote:Tell me now, .... what's the point of cutting off the plug washers!!?? :?

Eeeeish Andy, have you not been paying attention in Oom Bennie's Pastorals

Those washers otherwise necessary to lock and seal the plugs only chow the Aluminium Sleeves which provide the gas seal on the Y Series Engine. :ugeek:

Hey Bennie

Post by **Mud Dog** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:11 pm

ok .... never heard of it before, but it does kinda make sense

.... for a moment I thought you were going to tell me that it allows the plugs to set a little deeper and so improving ignition and compression ratio!

I was gearing myself up to tell you that's nonsense!

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:18 pm

Mud Dog wrote:ok .... never heard of it before, but it does kinda make sense .... for a moment I thought you were going to tell me that it allows the plugs to set a little deeper and so improving ignition and compression ratio! I was gearing myself up to tell you that's nonsense!

Go pop out your plugs tomorrow Andy and see how the washer deforms the Aluminium thus hampering the Oil and Gas Seal.

You can quite easily clean up and de-bur the end of the sleeves with wet & dry but in some cases the Aluminium sleeve is so damaged it's worth replacing them with Genuine Toyota ones (approx R50 each). :o

Young Bennie has preached this sermon many times on the Forum, can't believe a veteran like you have escaped the Good News thus far

Post by **Mud Dog** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:21 pm

I've seen it on my motor when changing plugs .... just never seen the topic here ... dunno why 'cause I read almost eveything.

BenHur · Post by **BenHur** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:23 pm

Sies Andy shame on you!!

Post by **Mud Dog** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:14 pm

BenHur wrote:Sies Andy shame on you!!

: sad dog.jpg (27.75 KiB) Viewed 4374 times

Mr_B · Post by **Mr_B** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:26 am

Ok... folks... a little update on the restoration of Roy's bottom end...

Yesterday we completed the fitment of the engine... special attention was paid to fitting new intake/exhaust studs and installing of the intake/exhaust manifolds, cause previously these were a major problem, leaking badly... with everything complete we added the new coolant(toyota brand, not amstel) and poured in the oil, alas we forgot to put the spark plugs back in... hence cylinder no.1 and to lesser extent no.2 filled up with oil... oops... we cranked the engine over to clear the oil from the cylinders... with that done... fitted the spark plugs... but she didn't want to crank to well... she was straining on the no.1 compression stroke... I pulled the plugs out again... dang... oil still in no.1 cylinder... cleared the oil out... crank the engine... hooray she started beautifully... purring... very smooth... unfortunately the utopian state lasted for about 1 minute... the engine speed slowed down and she died... after much soul searching and deliberation(and some diagnostic testing)... I realised the engine had locked, something had seized... to cut a long story short... we removed to sump, checked the main bearing... all 100%... checked the big ends... alas cylinder no.1's bearings had taken a beating... after removing the no.1 bearing the engine turned fine gain... I gave Allan a call to confirm my suspicion and sure enough the bit of oil left in the no.1 cylinder had caused abnormally high compression on no.1... leading to the bearing damage... fortunately no other damaged occured, the crank is still 100% smooth and polished... and we can simply fit another set of big end bearing, fit the sump again and fire her up... as usual I learnt another valuable lesson about engine building, even a small bit of oil in the cylinders can be very detrimental... next time I'll be a little more careful before putting the oil in... spark plugs first! Wednesday evening we'll complete the repair and report back! You win some, you lose some.... you live and you learn ne'

mr b

Post by **Mud Dog** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:12 pm

Eish! That's not cool! :problem: Are you sure that's the cause? ... nothing wrong with the donor crank? .... hope it's not a serious isuue, but you'll know once you fit new bearings and the same thing happens / does'nt happen. It's gotta be spotless, one small piece of hair can also result in a jammed bearing on those fine tollerances.

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:15 pm

Mud Dog wrote:Eish! That's not cool! :problem: Are you sure that's the cause? ... nothing wrong with the donor crank? .... hope it's not a serious isuue, but you'll know once you fit new bearings and the same thing happens / does'nt happen. It's gotta be spotless, one small piece of hair can also result in a jammed bearing on those fine tollerances.

Are you sure you had all 24x Amstel Empties accounted for the Mr.B

Mr_B · Post by **Mr_B** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:20 pm

Well... Allan has sponsored a new set of big end bearing... so it's just a bit of labour to check which way it goes... I'm positive this is the issue... if not... out with the engine again... and crank and bearing cups etc... off for checking and machining!

Amstels? What Amstels? I know nutting!

mr b

Mr_B · Post by **Mr_B** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:25 pm

Mud Dog wrote:It's gotta be spotless, one small piece of hair can also result in a jammed bearing on those fine tollerances.

Andy...

strange... I was told to add a little sand and a few metal filing to the oil on the bearing... during fitment... to aid with the bedding-in process??

mr b

Post by **Mud Dog** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:34 pm

A little sarcasm and curry powder also goes a long way!

the BuTch3R · Post by **the BuTch3R** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:03 pm

....on wednesday, the Roy Toy will rise from the dead!

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:14 pm

Not-so-Noob wrote:....on wednesday, the Roy Toy will rise from the dead!

A-men Brother

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:38 am

Tis Official.....

Rattling Roy is DEAD

:problem: :!: :!:

Long Live...............

Roaring Roy :razz: :!: :!:

Puuuuring like a kitten, gots peekchaz and video to load tomorrow when I'm not so dog-tired

Cookie Monster · Post by **Cookie Monster** » Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:20 am

I had the same problem after looking for the noise I figured it was the clutch as the noise can be heard there not really in the front and i could also feel it in the clutch pedal. So I pulled the gearbox Monday night but could not really find anything

Anyway I fitted a new Sachs clutch kit and skimed the flywheel on looking her over and checking for end float on the crank I found that I could move the crank pully 15 degrees without the crank turning so I wipped it off to find the key way a little damaged on the crank one times worn key and a very badly worn pully so I fitted a good second hand pully and key some lock tight and talked the Bolt to the correct torque. Reason for the wear is that the bolt comes loose!!!! I would sugest all the guys with 4y motors retorgue the crank bolt and if its loose remove and inspect!!! Have a look how the crank was damaged in the picture that pully was loose!!! Anyway mine is nice and tight but I will have to remove it again soon to do the chain tensioner

the BuTch3R · Post by **the BuTch3R** » Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:58 am

I couldn't agree more Justin. Definitely worth a check. Could save you a lot of unnecessary effort and money if diagnosed/discovered early enough.
For me..I learnt a heluva lot over the past 2 weekends.Roy also received some major TLC during this repair (new bearings, lifters, manifold gaskets, oil change, etc etc). He definitely much happier than he's ever been.
A BIG THANKS to Dr_B and Rich for giving up their time for Roy's Resurrection!

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:45 am

Having a few technical difficulties Downloading and Uploading pics and vids from last night.

:problem:

Can't view the .3gp videos on my pc

Can I upload this format to YouTube or do I have to convert manne

:problem:

Did manage to retrieve one pic of Roy's new heart though, just to wet your appetite nê

:arrow:

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:46 pm

See Mr_B and Roaring Roy in action

Post by **Family_Dog** » Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:10 pm

Rich... why did it keep on stalling?

Oh, wait... that's my slow youtube streaming pausing! ;)

-F_D