Hilux 4x4 Forum

Posted: **Mon May 11, 2015 8:36 pm**

Chris, this is moving into the realm of my thoughts, planning and installation, except that I have gone for two panels and two batteries per system - one 12v(lights) and one 220v inverted (TV's and computers).

ChrisF wrote:And thus the time came to make a decision .....

Well the budget helped .... with the 100k solutions not an option I considered my "cheaper" options.

1) I am partial to a fully automatic solution. This would be something like the MicroCare 1kW UPS unit for about 10k ... except they dont get back to us with a final price or availability

Current Automation has a similar setup from Victron. But is closer to a component approach, which means you would still have to buy the batteries and a few items to make up the UPS .... Very limited stock arrived and are being pre-sold and then sent to the shop nearest where the client paid for it. At least there is "some stock" .....

Try to get information from EXSolar and this is what you get -
exsolar (Small).png

What I thought was going to be a buying spree turned into a serious hunting exercise ......

And the option of a UPS does not really address the issue of backup lighting.

2) So I gradually started making peace with the system proposed but a reputable UPS supplier. Basically his advise comes down to:
- size the batteries to YOUR needs, to ENSURE you wont drain in past 50% SOC. I made the call to limit this sytem to ONE battery, for the tv and lights only. THIS guided my choises on other the other components.
- get the best possible charger !! QUALITY, not high charge rate. I believe the 7A of the Benton BX 2 is perfectly suited to this task. But I took it one step further and got a 100W solar panel to use with a MPPT regulator I already had (from no less than MicroCare :) ) The Benton will be on a 24/7 timer so that it is only on for maybe one hour per day (exact time to be checked once the sytem is in operation).
- my friend recommended the 300W inverter from Victron, enough power for my tv, brilliant wave quality, and the unit is as rugged as they come ... but he did mention that he has been waiting for nearly a year for his third unit. Simply NO STOCK ! I settled on the Mean Well 400W unit. Mean Well is a French company that provides a range of quality electronic products, manufacturing in Taiwan. Even with this unit it is only Current Automation that has limited stock.
PS - IF I wanted to use more power than what one battery could deliver I would have gone for a battery bank, and then the inverter would have been such that I would have opted for the 4x4Direct inverter. At the moment our test unit is powering my neighbours garage door.

This system does mean I had to compromise on my desire for a fully automatic system .... I know it is technically possible rig up contactors to achieve an automatic system, but then my extention lead becomes a permanent fixture exceeding the Regs. Small infraction, but I am really trying to keep this as legal as possible.

Our system is now planned to be a mannual switch on, roll out the lead, and plug in the tv. The lighting circuit will be a permanent second circuit, to best practice, and I can then amend if needed once the new Regs comes into play.

All the components, except the lighting items, are in the garage and I am now playing puzzly games to figure out the layout and a few logistics ...... And my mind is racing thinking about all the various options. Got some nice ideas for the lighting .... Now waiting for my neighbour to pop over to comment on the Regs and legalities of the next few steps ..... tonight I am screwing everything together, en more trek ek draad ....

promise I will post pics and more details as the project unfolds .... thanks to our trusty 4x4Direct the system will have a space-age monitoring heads up display !!

Posted: **Mon May 11, 2015 8:46 pm**

you people must watch out for level 5 load shedding.

Posted: **Mon May 11, 2015 9:57 pm**

Andy maths is one thing .... real life likes to throw us some curve balls ....

One tv is about as much as one battery can carry for a full load shed - without drawing past the 50% mark. Trying to run a second tv or pc and the game CHANGES. Scary just how quickly the costs runs away !!

At least I now have the best possible (available) inverter for my tv/pc.

The lighting circuit should really draw minimal power - then again ours is a classic small town house.

That said, a load shed of even slightly more than 2 hours will push my single battery close to the magic 50% SOC.

IF it does become an issue I will just change the stand on top to fit two batteries in parallel .....

and this is what it looks like tonight -

: DSCN2254 (Small).JPG (31.13 KiB) Viewed 8188 times

MPPT moet nog links-bo ingesit word.

nice "heads up display" from 4x4Direct -

: DSCN2255 (Small).JPG (49.66 KiB) Viewed 8188 times

: DSCN2256 (Small).JPG (35.48 KiB) Viewed 8188 times

.... now the one solder joint on the LED strip in the garage is messing about .... will have to check it out tomorrow afternoon in the daylight ..... you need a lot of patience for these projects ....

Posted: **Wed May 13, 2015 7:59 am**

Found this on other forum just for intrest
http://www.caravanparks.com/index.php?c ... item=16719" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Posted: **Wed May 13, 2015 8:29 am**

ChrisF wrote:DISCLAIMER - We ARE talking of HOUSE WIRING here. A topic which is WELL REGULATED.
......

Gent in Kuilsriver got a nice letter from City of Cape Town.

He has an impressive set of PV panels, drawing some attention, and the battery bank and inverter yada yada ....

Basically the letter requires him to confirm either:
- his system is off grid and cant feed back, OR
- his was an illegal installation and has been disconnected .....

about R100k later he has now found himself in the cross hairs of the City of Cape Town electrical department.

Again I say the wiring code is yet to be updated .... even though many proceed with "best practice" installations it is a RISKY investment !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted: **Sun May 17, 2015 6:43 pm**

Following the previous post we digged a bit deeper .....

Now I have previously referred to the presentation by Brian Jones - http://www.esi-africa.com/wp-content/up ... -Jones.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This was a presentation from the City of Cape Town (COCT) to interested parties. This document has now evolved, and the COCT now works in accordance with this document, even to the point where units rates are now officially documented -

https://www.capetown.gov.za/en/electric ... _10_31.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are various links from this page, covering a range of items.

You may also be interested in this link -
http://web.eskom.co.za/tenderbulletin/F ... ?ID=103822" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This page is also worth a read -
http://goingsolar.co.za/solar-grid-tie- ... th-africa/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Take note of the references to insurance etc in this article ......

SUMMARY (key points as I read it, applying to my house)
- I could have a small system that is NOT connected to my house wiring, ie a stand alone system - NO risk of feeding back into the grid.
- IF I wanted to connect to the grid the following would apply (to my single phase 60A home) :
* MAX inverter size of 3,6kW !! (that is less than 20kW.h per day over a year !!)
* SSEG application compulsory, and only approved equipment may be used !!
* IF I wanted to feed back power into the grid I would have to apply for this and then the following rates would apply for 2015
# R13,03 per day service charge (Thats R400 per month before you have used one single unit of power!)
# R 1,09 per unit you buy from COCT
# Now get seated for this one ... the COCT will graciously purchase power from you at a rate of 49,7 CENTS per unit !!
NOTE - you will be generating CHEAP power during the day and pay more than double to get those units back at night !!
NOTE - DO remember your generating capacity is CAPPED at 3,6kW !! Thus the maths just dont make sense .... unless you are retired and re-arrange your whole life to use all your power between 11:00 and 15:00 .....

* THUS, the next option would be to register as a SSEG and NOT feed power back into the grid. This way you dont pay the R400 per month, but you stay on the R 1,53 rate system ......

One last thing to take note of - until the new Regulations are published the COCT requires your installation to be signed off by a professional engineer.

So after reading all this stuff, the following MAY apply to the gent in the previous post:
- Trying to get off the grid he possible installed more than 3,6kW worth of panels ... in fact the most popular inverter is the 5kW unit - NOT LEGAL
- very short list of approved inverters .... the Victron, Schneider, MicroCare etc all are accredited in accordance with a different standard and thus NOT LEGAL in the COCT
- a typical "grid-tied" system is only legal once the home owner has done the SSEG application and got approval, both on the application and the equipment to be used

Posted: **Sun May 17, 2015 10:26 pm**

Nee wat! They can stick the grid-tied option where it fits and smells the worst! Instead of encouraging SSEG's to diminish the demand on the national supplier they make it difficult as hell and remove the financial incentives.

I'll just carry on making myself less reliant on them.

Posted: **Mon May 18, 2015 7:15 am**

Andy that is about as much as we can say on this here FAMILY forum about the approach of the COCT ...

SAFETY - YES, I fully understand where they come from ... BUT there is a LONG list of European approved equipment for this very purpose ..... interesting that the Victron and Schneider type equipment does not appear on their list

MONEY - The European model is beginning to fall appart due to too many people now self generating, thus not enough money going into the system for the upkeep of the grid ..... now the COCT went ape and over compensated .....

given the current shortage of electricity they should be ENCOURAGING people to go PV.

o-well, at least now we have some facts, and everyone can decide how to work in or around it ......

Posted: **Mon May 18, 2015 8:14 am**

Just ordered some more stuff from 4x4Direct, so shortly the only things I'll be using the grid for is fridges / freezers and the stove / oven. The workshop will be looking at it's own power supply as well. Once I'm done here I'll install night lights for the entrances and passageways of two blocks of flats that we own. :razz:

Posted: **Mon May 18, 2015 10:13 am**

My mond hang oop.
Ek sal maar my bek hou terwyl die son skyn.

:evil:

Posted: **Mon May 18, 2015 10:53 am**

Janee wat...

a totally seperate system like discussed in the other thread...and when the COC gets done you remove your system and take it to the next house...

Best would be if the national code of wiring is updated, even if it is just a basic guideline for a sperate installation without any feedback into the grid

Posted: **Mon May 18, 2015 12:41 pm**

KOBUSL wrote:My mond hang oop.
Ek sal maar my bek hou terwyl die son skyn. :evil:

Jy stel dit nog mooi "saggies" ......

dalk is ek net baie naief ..... maar ek sou wou woon in n land waar mense aangemoedig word om minder steenkool te brand ..... maar nee, hier kyk die gemors net na hul eie mislike paliteit se budget - want wie gaan dan daai anner lot subsidieer .....

my melk tanne is lekker stomp vir die lot !!

Posted: **Mon May 18, 2015 12:49 pm**

Stef wrote:Janee wat...

a totally seperate system like discussed in the other thread...and when the COC gets done you remove your system and take it to the next house...

Best would be if the national code of wiring is updated, even if it is just a basic guideline for a sperate installation without any feedback into the grid

Ek kry die idee die wit-jasse is besig om hulself in n knoop te draai ....

so baie opsies, en erens moet iemand n besluit neem rakende die standaarde wat ons gaan volg .... soos wat ons geliefde COCT nou besluit het dat die beste Europese goed nie die standaard is wat hier in die Moederstad gevolg gaan word nie - feit is maak nie saak wat besluit word nie, iemand gaan vies wees ... ons kort nou net iemand met groot brass goens wat n besluit kan neem dat ons begin beplan ....

kan ook dit bysê - in die verlede het ons generators ingesit volgens die bou regulasies, maar dit was maklik. NOU moet daar n amptelike aansoek gedoen word by COCT, grootte, tipe, ens .... dan kyk hulle eers na plasing en geraas vir die bure, dan na lug suiwerheid, ..... op een van ons terreine het die klient solank die generator ingesit terwyl die papiere in die stelsel is - COCT kom kyk en gee toe eers n boete !!

Posted: **Tue May 19, 2015 3:13 pm**

Neem aan die inspekteur was regerende party met die groen en geel en die klient nie..

dit stink vd mentalitiet

Die punt is, as die slim manne wat die wiring code opstel die standaarde neerle kan COCT ma loop slaap, al wat hulle gaan kan toepas is is munisipale by-wette in terme van omgewingsfaktore soos geraas ens.
Ek wonder net wie COCT se adviseurs was en of die lot ooit ESCA geregistreerd is....

Kan dit dalk opvat met die mense van ECBSA en Tony Macdonald, hy verteenwoordig die kontrakteurs op die raad v manne wat die standaarde neerlê

Dis net vir my so ironies dat solar geysers deur die regering bevorder en gesubsidieer word maar elektriese son panele is taboe

Posted: **Tue May 19, 2015 3:27 pm**

Stefan met name soos "Brian Jones" sit jy die pot mis met die een ... onse eie mense wat die reels op stel.

Daar is TWEE sterk pole met die storie :

- VEILIGHEID - en dit is waar ons mense inkom om te kyk na die veiligheid van die eskom werkers wat gaan sneuwel as gevolg van onwettige en onveilige stelsels. (mooi idee, maar ek wonder oor die kodes wat hulle na volg ...)

- MAMON, die owerste van GELD - Die STAD kyk eerstens na hul balanstaat !!!!!!!! Hulle geen nie een wetter om vir my en jou wat in die donker sit met load shedding nie - slegs hul balanstaat .... NIE seker watter groep hier die besluite neem nie.

Moet ook dadelik byvoeg - Brian Jones HET die industrie genader en n telekonferensie aangebied waar al die belanghebbendes kon hoor wat aangaan. Van n TEGNIESE punt respekteer ek hulle proses. Dis die finansiele deel wat n baie bitter smaak laat ...... maar dan (nee wat, los maar die politiek)

Okay, laat ek myself sommer dadelik weerspreek - ek weet waar die finansiele besluite van daan kom - die Europese model is besig om uit mekaar te val !! "n eenheid vir n eenheid" werk nie, want dan is daar geen geld wat inkom in die stelsel om die grid te onderhou nie .... so ek verstaan hoekom daar n verskil in die tariewe moet wees - maar nou loop ruk hulle weer die hoender ...

Posted: **Tue May 19, 2015 8:10 pm**

Okay, laat ek myself sommer dadelik weerspreek - ek weet waar die finansiele besluite van daan kom - die Europese model is besig om uit mekaar te val !! "n eenheid vir n eenheid" werk nie, want dan is daar geen geld wat inkom in die stelsel om die grid te onderhou nie .... so ek verstaan hoekom daar n verskil in die tariewe moet wees - maar nou loop ruk hulle weer die hoender ...

Yes but why look at only the European model, there are countless others that have overcome the grid maintenance funding issue without 'penalising' the consumer. The Aussies had the same problem some time back already and put a temporary moratorium on new grid tied installations until they got it figured out. As I understand they've introduced a basic service charge with grid-tied systems, still unit for unit basis and lifted the moratorium.

Problem here is simply that they want the profit to grease all the outstretched palms and continue funding incompetence.

Posted: **Tue May 19, 2015 9:40 pm**

Dit maak seker nie saak wat die politiek agter, indien enige, die Stad se motiewe is nie, ek is net bly iets gebeur. ( Ek bly nie in die stad nie, maar doen baie werk vir hulle. ) In my bedryf was ook totale onkunde , en moes die manne aan die stuur maar luister na die manne ( lees fly-by-nights ) wat die dienste en produkte aan hulle verkop het. Tot die opposisie ( nou nie die ANC nie, maw ek en firma's soos ons ) in die veld begin inkom en dit gelyk begin trek. Deur jare se onderhandel het daar toe tog sinnigheid gekom.

Die groot manne soos die Victrons, Microcares, ens sal verseker nie stilsit nie, veral nie in 'n mark soos ons s'n waar die nasionale voorsiener sy alie sien en die hele groot groeiende ekonomie braak le nie. Wat ek verder dink aan die gebeur is, is dat die wat enigsins kan, selfvoorsienend gaan word. Met tyd. Dit is dan ook die mense wat gereeld hulle krag betaal het. Dus gaan Eskom sit met die kragstelers, en niemand om daarvoor te betaal nie.

Wat ons klompie se huidige posisie is ?: ek dink veiligheid is die belangrikste oorweging , dan maar wag en sien. Munsipaal en munsipale regulasies is nie juis die vinnigste dinge op aarde om te verander nie. En die skroefkoppe is te dom om regulasies ( op hulle eie ) uit te dink.

Posted: **Wed May 20, 2015 7:58 am**

KOBUSL wrote:Dit maak seker nie saak wat die politiek agter, indien enige, die Stad se motiewe is nie, ek is net bly iets gebeur. ( Ek bly nie in die stad nie, maar doen baie werk vir hulle. ) In my bedryf was ook totale onkunde , en moes die manne aan die stuur maar luister na die manne ( lees fly-by-nights ) wat die dienste en produkte aan hulle verkop het. Tot die opposisie ( nou nie die ANC nie, maw ek en firma's soos ons ) in die veld begin inkom en dit gelyk begin trek. Deur jare se onderhandel het daar toe tog sinnigheid gekom.

Die groot manne soos die Victrons, Microcares, ens sal verseker nie stilsit nie, veral nie in 'n mark soos ons s'n waar die nasionale voorsiener sy alie sien en die hele groot groeiende ekonomie braak le nie. Wat ek verder dink aan die gebeur is, is dat die wat enigsins kan, selfvoorsienend gaan word. Met tyd. Dit is dan ook die mense wat gereeld hulle krag betaal het. Dus gaan Eskom sit met die kragstelers, en niemand om daarvoor te betaal nie.

Wat ons klompie se huidige posisie is ?: ek dink veiligheid is die belangrikste oorweging , dan maar wag en sien. Munsipaal en munsipale regulasies is nie juis die vinnigste dinge op aarde om te verander nie. En die skroefkoppe is te dom om regulasies ( op hulle eie ) uit te dink.

Kobus as ons kyk na die tegniese sy stem ek 100% saam - nou is daar ten minste riglyne en mens kan begin beplan. Uit die aard van ons werk kommunikeer ons gereeld met die tegniese manne rakende potensiele projekte. Daar is n paar goeie manne - net te min vir die volume werk.

Die probleem kom dat die riglyne so opgestel word dat die "betalendes" nie wettiglik self versorgend kan raak nie - die stad stel die reels so op dat die betalendes sal moet aanhou om die res te subsidieer.

DIT is die frustrerende deel ...

My benadering :
- back-up krag vir die tv rekenaar (off grid, dus wettig)
- 12V ligte (nie veel koste besparing as mens dit vergelyk met krag doeltreffende 220V opsies nie, maar ek doen dit promer dat ons lig het wanneer eskom af is in die aand, wat nou n paar keer per week is)
- geyser - as ek hier solar of PV gaan sal dit n besparing te weeg bring .... en as die wetters hul 25% verhoging kry sal die besparing groot wees ...
- stoof (4x plate) - wil oorskakel na gas - bietjie koste besparing, maar hoofsaaklik dat mens nie kooktyd rondom n ewigdurende veranderende loadshed skedule hoef te beplan nie.

Ek wonder nou wat ons krag (eenhede) besparing sal wees as ok die volgende items van eskom krag afhaal:
- ligte
- geyser
- stoof

dalk 50% ????????

maak geen fout - dis n DUUR oefening, en ek betwyfel of daar n gelykbreekpunt in die volgende 10 jaar is ..... maar om elke middag rond te skarel en te beplan rondom n load shed is "bollie". Juis gistermiddag was daar sprake dat dit skedule van 1 tot 2 sou verander - wanneer dit gebeur sou bepaal of ons krag van 16:00 tot 1800 of van 18:00 tot 20:00 sou af wees ..... uiteindelik was die oorskakeling tussen fases so dat ons krag nie af was nie. Maar nou praat hulle weer van vanaand 18:00 tot 20:00 ... maar ons sal eers laat middag weet watter skedule van toepassing is. Nee dankie, so wil ek nie elke dag my lewe beplan rondom ander se onbevoegdheid nie ...

Posted: **Wed May 20, 2015 12:55 pm**

http://mg.co.za/article/2015-03-26-sun- ... s-monopoly" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Posted: **Fri May 22, 2015 9:51 pm**

We had load shedding last night from 6pm to 8pm - we were running 2 TV's, decoder, ADSL router and one PC + monitor. No problem as always, even left everything running off the inverter for an additional 1½ hours after 8pm. Then we get slapped with another shedding early this morning, 6am to 8am with no recharge time since the previous extended session. Checked the batteries when I went to switch on the inverter (I don't leave it running when not in use) - batteries still at 12.2V. Was happy with that and ran exactly the same a last night except that it was just one TV and not two. At some point before 7.30am the panels were supplying charge and the batteries still had 12.2V and remained there until I switched over to the grid at about 8.30am. They were fully charged again this evening at 13.8V and we've just had another 2hr shedding .... I'm still running off the inverter and will switch over again later this evening.

That means that my little system can stand up to stage 2 load shedding and more. I'm chuffed!

Posted: **Fri May 22, 2015 9:59 pm**

Andy what is the total A.h capacity of your batteries ?

with the single 100A.h I will go past the 50% SOC if I ran the tv for a second loadshed without any re-charge ....

with our current system our "needs" are more than catered for. :)

Posted: **Fri May 22, 2015 10:28 pm**

I have 204Ah for TV etc. (inverter) and 204Ah for house lights (12V system).

Shortly there will be an extra 306Ah to run my outside lights all night (12 of them totalling 540 LED's), and another 102Ah for flood lighting that will be for 'only as required' (two separately switched 20W units from 4x4Direct).

Posted: **Fri May 22, 2015 11:31 pm**

I wrote:They were fully charged again this evening at 13.8V and we've just had another 2hr shedding .... I'm still running off the inverter and will switch over again later this evening.

Just switched over now ....... that was 3½ hrs running all the same stuff as mentioned above except that we only used 1 TV and that was switched off after the first hour and a bit.

Posted: **Sat May 23, 2015 5:13 pm**

That is great Andy, I am glad to see some cost effective systems been successful.

Well done!

Posted: **Sat May 23, 2015 8:06 pm**

Thanks Pieter! Do you know if the LED strips can handle 24 Volts?

Posted: **Sun May 24, 2015 12:41 pm**

No they can't, one must use a special 24 volt LED Strip.
I can order those but must take at least 200 meters.

Posted: **Sun May 24, 2015 5:25 pm**

Thanks Pieter, but that won't work for what I had in mind. I'm a bit concerned about the voltage drop over the length of the run I need to make up to my gates. I want to use the existing 1.5mm 220V circuit which I think is going to have a significant drop and I was wondering if I could just make it a 24V circuit instead of boosting the voltage. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boost_converter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

I'll just have to measure the voltage at the end of the run when I do the change over and see from there.

Posted: **Sun May 24, 2015 5:35 pm**

Mud Dog wrote:Thanks Pieter, but that won't work for what I had in mind. I'm a bit concerned about the voltage drop over the length of the run I need to make up to my gates. I want to use the existing 1.5mm 220V circuit which I think is going to have a significant drop and I was wondering if I could just make it a 24V circuit instead of boosting the voltage.

I'll just have to measure the voltage at the end of the run when I do the change over and see from there.

consider a 220/12V power supply, with a 12V load output, and a 7Ah battery.

When eskom is playing nicely your 12V lights runs off eskom, via the power supply. As soon as eskom drops away the load is then auto fed from the 7Ah battery via the load side of the power supply.

a friend runs his 12V lights for his house on this principle.

Due to the size of the 7Ah battery one IS limited in the number of lights this system can run ....

Posted: **Sun May 24, 2015 5:49 pm**

... and that is exactly where I will run into trouble. That circuit will be running 5 of my home-made 'bulbs' - that's 15 modules apiece which = 225 LED's. They will run all night (roughly 12 hrs), so it has to run off my battery bank. The controllers that I'm using can select between a 12V or 24V system, they also have the function of being able to switch the load on and off like a day-light switch so I'm basically tied into my existing system for this one.

(Look at the voltage booster link that I added to the above post.)

Posted: **Sun May 24, 2015 7:23 pm**

would be interesting to do an experiment -

temporarily disconnect the 220V and run 12V along that wire with that FULL load ..... then measure the volt drop at start-up and then every half hour - to see if the wire is heating up and causing a higher volt drop ....

yes, a volt-booster can offset the volt drop. BUT, you dont want that wire getting hot. But you know that :)

Posted: **Sun May 24, 2015 10:49 pm**

Chris, I doubt that there will be any heat issues when the full load is calculated to draw only 2.7A .... I think the problem might be to push that 2.7A down that long thin corridor with only 12V behind it.

Posted: **Mon May 25, 2015 7:05 am**

This should do it...

: SDC-8170(R).jpg (58.27 KiB) Viewed 7835 times

viewtopic.php?f=169&t=28066

You would mount downstream it close to the LEDS.

-F_D

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