Hilux 4x4 Forum

Posted: **Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:02 am**

Now if i were to have more than one gasifier would it bring my fuel consumption down more?

Posted: **Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:39 am**

Irishman wrote:Hi Tristan, you can put as many cells in series, as you can find space for. One guy has six cells on his Toyota Corolla and is getting 61.13 MPG, and uses 6 amps.
I am going to stick with two for the time being, and play around with the amount of baking soda in the electrolyte. The more baking soda the more gas up to the point where it just makes heat, which you don't want. I have only 1/4 teaspoon at the moment. So far my gasifiers are running cold. The people that supply the s/s elements for the chlorofiers didn't bother to reply. Out in the sticks here we don't have anyone supplying swimming pools.
Cheers,
Ron.

Posted: **Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:40 am**

Hope that answers your question Luke

Posted: **Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:46 am**

Ron... were you able to post that PDF yet?

Posted: **Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:51 am**

Cassie, I put the basic stuff on my website. Have a look at http://www.westcoastinternet.co.za
Ron.

Posted: **Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:41 am**

Sorry ive got the flu,so my brain is a little buggered

should do more research :roll:

Posted: **Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:06 am**

Pieter have you got any updates on your conversion for us yet

Posted: **Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:10 pm**

Guys Thanks to Shaakill the complete manual is on a site of its own. If you open it please be patient it is a big file and takes some time to download (6.8 Mb) If you print it out it is 184 pages
long. The site will only be open for a few days, so if you want it, go for it now.
http://test.testserver.co.za.dedi59jnb2 ... Manual.pfd

Posted: **Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:23 pm**

for some reason the url changes when I try to submit the message. I will spell it out and you can try to open it in your browser
http colon forward slash forward slash test dot testserver dot co dot za dot dedi59jnb2 dot host-h dot net forwardslash User-Manual dot pdf
Ron.

Posted: **Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:50 pm**

Irishman wrote:for some reason the url changes when I try to submit the message. I will spell it out and you can try to open it in your browser
http colon forward slash forward slash test dot testserver dot co dot za dot dedi59jnb2 dot host-h dot net forwardslash User-Manual dot pdf
Ron.

Tried both....

If you click the URL botton and paste the information inside (if you edit your first post with the link you will see how - I edited it for you)

Posted: **Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:36 pm**

No luck with the download.

Posted: **Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:09 pm**

Nor me

Posted: **Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:00 am**

ROn,

you got it wrong.
You put the file extenstion as PFD instead of PDF
Below is the corrected link..I would suggest right clicking on the link, and choose "Save Target AS".. this would be a safer option that trying to open it from the site itself

http://test.testserver.co.za.dedi59.jnb ... Manual.pdf

Posted: **Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:13 am**

Well spotted Dalkill, I got carried away, and was typing with two fingers

Posted: **Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:58 am**

Thanks guys

download is working fine now :D
Hahaha :!: :!:

haven't been through the whole thing yet but its real cheesy how they have super imposed graphics onto the vehicle on the cover page.

I would have serious doubts if it wasn't for the fact that Ron is already having success with this 8)

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:47 pm**

I changed my design so that it is the same as Ron's. I installed it in the Tazz. I guess I must give the Tazz a good service before I test it again. On the tank before the unit was installed I go 11.8km/l and after I installed the unit got 12.9km/l. This is such a small difference. I think even speed or wind can cause the variation. I will service little Tazz this evening and we are going to Cape Town on Friday. So then I can do a test again. I think what I will do is to fill it up, drive to CPT and fill up there again. Then disconnect the Hydrogen thingy, drive back to Langebaan and fill up again, then compare the two.

I can feel a increase in performance, the engine runs smoother and starts easier. So I can feel the improvement, I just expected more of a fuel consumption improvement.

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:18 pm**

Pieter, Did you fit two gasifiers or only one. fitting two in series helped a lot.(elecricitly in parallel)
Ron.

Posted: **Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:23 am**

Hi Ron, No I only fitted one. Will pay around with it more. What milage do you get with your Hilux now?

Posted: **Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:53 am**

Pieter, I haven't had a chance to do a further test yet. What I did do, was increase the amount of baking soda to a level teaspoon, and I am making much more gas, and using more amps. The 5amp fuse holder melted!! The way I read it the more baking soda you use, the more gas you produce up to the point where your jar starts getting hot.
Ron.

Posted: **Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:29 am**

Mine is making a lot of gas and I used a 15 Amp fuse from the beginning. I reckoned that it only have to melt the fuse if there is a short. I measured mine and it uses about 3.5 amps. I will replace the electrolyte before I go to CPT and then sommer make it stronger.

Posted: **Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:21 pm**

hi
irishman i have a hilux with a 4y engine and would love to do this mod, if you have any extra pics of all the pipe work and electrics that would be great, you can email them to me if you want. stazza_1992@hotmail.com
cheers

Posted: **Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:05 pm**

After about 600Km it used about half the water. On the first picture below it shows that the water is brown. Ron is yours the same? I think the brown might be from the bakalite lid since it has a strong bakalite smell.

The second picture shows how much gas comes from the system, with fresh electrolite.

Posted: **Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:09 pm**

Is there anybody who can perhaps organize us a gas analysis? Where are the scientists among us? The proffies or doctors?

The only way we will know for sure what gas is coming off is if we do a proper gas analysis.

Posted: **Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:36 pm**

Pieter, my electrolyte is a little discolored, but not brown like yours. I think the gas dosen't like that bakelite cover.I made the cover for the second gasifier from perspex. I did a trip the other day, and I thought my engine wasn't pulling as well as normal. When I stopped and looked under the bonnet one of my gas pipes had come adrift. So I am definitely getting more power with the gas system.
Ron.

Posted: **Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:17 am**

Last day guys

The manual will be removed from the server by this afternoon 3pm
Get it while you can

http://test.testserver.co.za.dedi59.jnb ... Manual.pdf

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:53 pm**

Hi Chaps,
I always find the site interesting but I think we must all admit This subject has caught a lot of our attention. FIRST thanks to the guys brave enough to try all this. Just before I started to follow this discussion re. Hydrogen from water, I had read a artical in the August Bike SA Mag. Where 2 chap by the name of Spinks & Bazz came up with what they call a WATER SPLITTER. And that they have done tests and have installed thier units to a number of vehicles ( They are marketing thier product ) Well after giving Bazz a call and having a chat to him, he has informed me they have just installed a unit into a 2.7 Hilux as well as a 3.0 Hilux. the test results are not available as yet. They claim a saving of up to 40%

I will make up my own as you chaps have done as I believe Bazz & Spinks charge around R1200.00 for a unit. They claim they have different size units. R 1200.00 !!!

Well I will rather do it muself.
:) SO PLEASE any other pictures or help you can spare please send it to my email > andy@butlerhomes.co.za
**** And one more question**** Are ther any members of this Forum that live in Richards Bay or close. Would be great to meet up .
Keep up the great work guys.

Andy :D

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:06 pm**

Hi Andy
I dont want to drift off topic here but you will have better luck finding members in Richards Bay If you start a new topic under General Discussions.
That way more people will get to see it.
I used to live up that way on a game farm near Hluhluwe and my sister lives in in Richards Bay so next time Im up there we can meet up

Now back to the Hydrogen Conversion :arrow: Im also very keen to try but need to learn a bit more about engines first

Thanks Ron and Piet for being the pioneers

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:07 pm**

Gaseous Boffs

Question:

I've got some 1.2mm s/s Stranded (bare twist) wire in stock - use it for Electrified fencing - how suitable would that be please

Rich

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:01 am**

Hi Rick, that's exactly the recommended wire. Check if it is 316S/S
Ron.

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:44 am**

Irishman wrote:Hi Rick, that's exactly the recommended wire. Check if it is 316S/S
Ron.

Aye it be that Ron, to be sure

If my memory serves me correctly (it's been a few years since Uni);

Kyky so.....

An Electrical Resistant Element works as so:

LENGTH OF ELEMENT = DETERMINES VOLTS DROP

THICKNESS OF ELEMENT ; DETERMINE AMPS CONSUMED

So, I can't see how an expanded metal grid can work efficiently BUT
This wire should be Highly Efficient yar :D :D

Did you do the Calcs Big Ron, or was it Trail and Error (The Luck Of the Irish :D )

Rich

Posted: **Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:20 pm**

Rich, what does that calculate to when are using a 4mm stainless rod, each electrode 1 meter long coiled to a diameter of around 5 cm.

I have been playing with my concentration and at around 4 amps my electrode points that come out the container get nice and hot, but the water stays fairly cool for a while, but seem to run into thermal runaway after about 10 minutes and the amperage just does not seem to want to stay down. As the temp increases, the amps increase, the production goes up and the temp increases and there we have our circle.

This however is on the bench and is on a constant power supply. My feeling however was to supply my generators from a variable circuit that derives it's pickup off the accelerator as I did not want the diesel to be fed HHO while idling.

Comments please, I want to finalize my unit before I take on the road to the West Coast end of September for my holiday.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:08 am**

Bfreesani wrote:Rich, what does that calculate to when are using a 4mm stainless rod, each electrode 1 meter long coiled to a diameter of around 5 cm.

I have been playing with my concentration and at around 4 amps my electrode points that come out the container get nice and hot, but the water stays fairly cool for a while, but seem to run into thermal runaway after about 10 minutes and the amperage just does not seem to want to stay down. As the temp increases, the amps increase, the production goes up and the temp increases and there we have our circle.

This however is on the bench and is on a constant power supply. My feeling however was to supply my generators from a variable circuit that derives it's pickup off the accelerator as I did not want the diesel to be fed HHO while idling.

Comments please, I want to finalize my unit before I take on the road to the West Coast end of September for my holiday.

David

TURN IT OFF!!!!!

It's Moosa Unstable Bru!!!!!

Those Electrodes are way too BIG

Please Note:
1. NEVER connect ANY electrodes to a voltage greater than 24V
2. NEVER connect to AC Current

I'll post a photo of the s/s wire suitable for Electrode, incl. Price, Manufacturer, Retail Suppliers.

(that's once I've been to the Bank for round 2)

Rich

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:08 am**

I agree with Rich. 4 mm wire is way to thick. It should be 1.2m, and you start with a piece of wire 1.6 meters long before braiding. The guys in the states have experimented, and this size gives the best results. I ended up with snicking off about 15 mm after winding it round the tower. The voltage is 12 to 13.4 from the alternator, and the amps pulled depends on the strength of your electrolyte, which is controlled by the amount of baking soda you have added. If you overdo the baking soda the electrolyte gets hot, and you are just waisting energy. I am up to 3/4 of a teaspoon with no overheating, and it must be distilled water.
After two weeks with the system working, my engine is running as smooth as a baby's bottom, and one touch of the starter and it bursts into life. When I get my electronic dizzy fitted I will run another test. Trouble is I can't get the tank low enough to put in some more petrol

(Just Kidding)
Ron.

Posted: **Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:34 pm**

Photo and details as promised.........

Supplier: Security and Remotes Unlimited
http://www.remotes.co.za
Retailed by: Builders Warehouse + other Hardware Retailers (as per photo)

Price: Approx - R50 for 40 meter roll (cheaper if you buy 100 meters plus)

Spec:

1.2mm Twisted Stranded 316 s-steel wire

See attached:

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:06 am**

Hi

One of my collogues was at a manne kerk kamp about a month ago. One of his friends also at the camp showed him the contraption he build and installed in his Opel Astra 1.6. It is a hydrogen from water system and the gas is fed into the engine with the air/petrol mixture. He claims to get 40 km/l on petrol consumtion with this setup. He uses about a litre of water on 200 kms I think.

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:23 am**

HiluxJunkie wrote:Hi

One of my collogues was at a manne kerk kamp about a month ago. One of his friends also at the camp showed him the contraption he build and installed in his Opel Astra 1.6. It is a hydrogen from water system and the gas is fed into the engine with the air/petrol mixture. He claims to get 40 km/l on petrol consumtion with this setup. He uses about a litre of water on 200 kms I think.

Hi Simon..

Very interesting topic this. That is incredible milage! Does that mean that if you take the open road, you have to fill up your water container frequently after every +- 200km if the container only takes 1 litre?

Petrie

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:42 am**

Im sure Ron will come along with a better answer here but a Litre sounds like allot compare to what he is using

As far as toping up goes I would guess the guy is using more than one bottle so it is probably a litre among the lot so the bottles wont run dry after 200km.

Ron how low can the water level drop before it needs to be topped up

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:15 pm**

Hi Tristan, I started with the electrolyte 25 mm below the top of the bottles (to allow for sloshing) and after 600k's haven't put in any water. That guy must have a very strong mixture of baking soda/water and is boiling off his electrolyte. His jars must be getting pretty hot.
I reckon you shouldn't let the electrolyte get more than three quarters down the bottle. I am waiting to get my electronic dizzy fitted ( I waited at Motolek for three hours the other day in vain) before more tests, meanwhile my 4Y is running like a dream.
Ron

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:06 pm**

Thanks for the warnings guys. I ended up with this "rod" as I could not source the wire I really needed. I saw this rod being used and copied a design of a German guy. I think the rod could work if a tone down amount of soda in my mix. I am using a small consol glass preserve bottle and not a large one. That halves my water and I was using a quarter tea spoon. I played again and got a fairly stable setup on half the soda.

BUT, I think I need to have a look at the wire you guys are talking about here. I just need to relook the twisting to optimize the surface area of the stainless to the water.

Thanks again.

By the way, has anybody had a blow up in the garage yet??? I made a mistake a while ago and got flashback into my bubbler. My wife thought I had shot myself. Besides that, it just about cleared a half meter of tools and bits from the workbench.

SO YES!!!!!! SAFETY is so important, this stuff is seriously potent.

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:55 pm**

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:06 pm**

finally somebody "tested" the flashback.
Sorry David, don't mean to be insensitive, but the safety issue was concerning me all along.
I now fitted my hilux with LPG kit, and still have to sort out some backfires. THis is the reason why I have not yet added a booster to my lux. One of those backfires caused a tear in my air filter. I can just imagine what that, with hydrogen will do.

I'm thinking of putting on my k&n cone filter I have lying around at home. Should be able to handle flashbacks better.
If a bubbler was to go in the engine bay, how much damage could one expect???

David did you manage to take some pics of the hydrogen bomb??

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:50 pm**

LOL, no pictures.... Lucky thing is the consol fruit preserve bottles are designed to blow the lid off. So the glass did not shatter and cut anything (especially me) to pieces. I see the guys use a plastic bottle with fairly big plastic clip on lid for the bubbler and use it mostly as a anti flashback devise. It just pops off the lid and stops the whole feed to the engine. I am not sure how you rig a warning device for yourself that this has happened, or do you just find out that the car has very little power.

That flashback occurred through more than a meter of fishtank tube pipe. The pipe was so small/thin that I could just about watch the flash back happening down the pipe. All I managed to do was hit the deck. It burns off so fast that once inside the bubbler and the explosion was over, even though the generator was still producing and bubbling, there was nothing left to ignite the next bubble coming up, Ok the bottle had "jumped" around a bit, but the process was stopped by the bubbler/flashback arrestor

Also not sure how much of the workbench clearing was caused by the explosion, or by me trying to pull the pipe out the bubbler before the flame got to it. Either way, it leaves a horrible smell in the air.. Oh no, wait, that was me

. The HHO burns with no odor that I noticed.

Maybe play a bit and fill a coke bottle with some HHO from your generator and ignite from a distance and see the affect. Or just check this out....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd6wUQbY ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J264FL5FnvM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3Q1Cc5b32I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcJRtHu5 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tbbDlxZ ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6hKM1I7 ... re=related

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:06 pm**

I imported a Canadian unit which draws 15 amps and produces a lot of gas. I have it fitted to a Mazda 2.5TD and see no change in my fuel consumption. It has no engine management system so there is nothing to negate fuel savings.

The water4gas unit is a load of rubbish and also dangerous.

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:11 pm**

Oh! no!!! and here I thought we had finally made some sort of record with keeping this thread on topic but its just a matter of time till we are all competing and comparing notes on who can make the biggest bomb!!!

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:13 pm**

wigs wrote:I imported a Canadian unit which draws 15 amps and produces a lot of gas. I have it fitted to a Mazda 2.5TD and see no change in my fuel consumption. It has no engine management system so there is nothing to negate fuel savings.

The water4gas unit is a load of rubbish and also dangerous.

Did you notice any difference in performance

or was there just no change at all

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:47 pm**

absolutely no change
and i am sure the gas is going into the engine. Maybe it is just me lol

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:50 pm**

I wanted to check if the gas was hydrogen and lit a flame next to the pipe out the bubbler. Not a clever idea.

After changing my pants, taking a tranquilizer and ordering a hearing aid I can confirm it does burn.

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:29 pm**

Well then Selwyn Im guessing there is something wrong with your setup

Surely with all that extra combustion you would surely feel some sort of difference

If you have read through this entire thread you will know that when Ron turns his system on the revs increase. Does this happen with your setup

I think you can be officially added to the bomb manufacturing list here

Who is going to be the first person to see if they can blow something to smithereens...

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:44 pm**

Tristan wrote: I think you can be officially added to the bomb manufacturing list here
Who is going to be the first person to see if they can blow something to smithereens...

I vote for parliament...

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:30 pm**

No the revs do not increase and i dont understand it.

Just call me Guy Fawks

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:39 pm**

Selwyn clearly you are producing the gas but it isn't getting were it is supposed to

I would suggest you re-inspect your installation (CAREFULLY)

You must be losing the gas in the system somewhere

Posted: **Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:51 pm**

Selwyn se setup het soos 'n bom gewerk :D

After a couple of tests with only one cell in the Tazz I must say the improvement of consumption is not so big that I can say it is definitely better. Here with us and the wind it might as well be the wind. If it is better it is in the region of 8%. I can say for sure that the car are running better with the system switched on. It definitely has more torque.

Posted: **Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:08 pm**

did a trip of 30 km in my v8 ,first one did 5liters for 30 km ,second trip same 30 km i did 2.4liters.their seems to be a lot of tweaking that has to be done.i drive through all my gears without having to use my gas peddle .not fast but moving ,in 5 gear i get 40 km per hour no fuel added ,so it works ,remember to advance timing slightly ,im playing with different constructions of units ,and different electrolyte mixtures .good luck and keep on experimenting

Posted: **Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:12 pm**

barrelage wrote:did a trip of 30 km in my v8 ,first one did 5liters for 30 km ,second trip same 30 km i did 2.4liters.their seems to be a lot of tweaking that has to be done.i drive through all my gears without having to use my gas peddle .not fast but moving ,in 5 gear i get 40 km per hour no fuel added ,so it works ,remember to advance timing slightly ,im playing with different constructions of units ,and different electrolyte mixtures .good luck and keep on experimenting

Good on yer Ian

Great to see the Pioneering Spirit is Soldiering On

Rich

Posted: **Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:12 pm**

I am just wondering whether a standard 2.4 22R engine will be able to "absorb" this "new" type of combustion taking place without damaging valves etc ? My schooldays of running a fifty on racing fuel comes to mind.....and the engine did not like this.

Posted: **Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:34 pm**

Hi Ian and Rich, I'm glad some one else is making progress. I am playing around with the amount of baking soda at the moment. According to the manual you can increase it until your gasifiers start getting warm. I am getting my electronic dizzy fitted to morrow, then I want to run another test. Unfortunately the only dyno outfit in Vredenburg closed down, so I can't get a decent tune up. I'm convinced I am running rich which of course wastes petrol.
These crazy guys who are looking for gas with a match are asking for trouble. Thats the oldest joke in the world. Ian how many gasifiers are you using?
Ron.

Posted: **Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:29 am**

TO all those who have tried the boosters in their vehicle, which type of flashback arrestor do you use.
After looking at them vid's of exploding bubblers or gasifiers, I'm scared

Posted: **Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:32 am**

The guys seem to use the bubbler as the flashback device with a plastic cap that will blow off at fairly low pressure compared to a blow up. The amount of gas that is in the bubbler at any time is fairly small and burns off before the next bubble can be pushed up from the generator. Even when you use something like a fish tank bubbling stone that produces very small bubbles, the burn off is so fast that it does not continue burning on the water surface. (if that makes sense).

This is part of the experiments that I did and why I can report on the "bomb" theory.

I was also wanting to try a use the gas for heating and cooking, but it burns so fast that no device that LPG is used for will work. HHO unlike the other gases has Oxygen that it is carrying with it up the pipe. All the components for combustion are right there before it even hits the air at the end of the pipe.

Posted: **Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:35 pm**

Irishman wrote:Hi Ian and Rich, I'm glad some one else is making progress. I am playing around with the amount of baking soda at the moment. According to the manual you can increase it until your gasifiers start getting warm. I am getting my electronic dizzy fitted to morrow, then I want to run another test. Unfortunately the only dyno outfit in Vredenburg closed down, so I can't get a decent tune up. I'm convinced I am running rich which of course wastes petrol.
These crazy guys who are looking for gas with a match are asking for trouble. Thats the oldest joke in the world. Ian how many gasifiers are you using?
Ron.

howzit Ron.
my landy was also over fueling until i set my oxygen screw all the way in.got my best ideal right their.playing around and tweaking is the name of the game .went to P.E. ON QUATER TANK. that suxs,87km, tweaked a bit closed of oxygen and bubbler,My wife drove back home 120,140km/h ,pulled in to the driveway,phoned me saying she,s home .driven 100k,s still not getting to a quarter,reckons can still drive another 50k,s .before a quarter is finished.got one question where u find bubblers locally. almost forgot i ran up to six, then came down to four and now running two,my coils are long and tight,could not get enough ampere with more units running 6amp on one and up to 8 amps on the other ,when i run three i can only get12amps,on four can only get 8 amps,on six only get half an amp each unit,that with 2 tablespoons bicarb ,on one cell runs 18 amps,bit hectic ,happy with two so far 40%to60% increase in consumption,depending on tweaking at the time,wife reckons i fiddle to much,i reckon the more u fiddle the more u learn

Posted: **Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:51 am**

Hi Ian, it's nice to see someone else getting results. We will let our detractors pay for the a-rabs to fly their Lambos to Italy for an oil change.
I can't understand why you are getting a voltage drop over the cells. They must be wired in parallel with a reasonably thick wire. I have a 10 amp in line fuse. The system melted the 5amp fuse holder! I reckon three cells are the best in our vehicles.
People are talking about the gas going through the bubbler. this is wrong. only air should be sucked through the bubbler to replace the gas you have drawn off with the vacuum. It looks as if they haven't fitted the safety valve. That is the one way check valve that you get from the pet shop. see below

Ron.

Hilux 4x4 Forum

Hydrogen from water

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