New Hilux unsafe

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pietdevs
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Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:26 am

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/if-you ... all-costs/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know the Fortuner and Hilux of a year or so ago was prone to ending on its roof. Check this out about the new one. USA conducted same tests with same results. Toyota came out worst of all the bakkies. Wat nou?
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Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:47 am

hilux is not for sissies lol..... if you can handle 1 you are a dammn good driver. as much as i love it for it unbreakable legendary status, i admit it is a very unstable vehicle
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Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:25 pm

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Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:46 pm

This is goin around over here and I'll say it again. You pull a move like that on the black top then you deserve to roll! It's a 4x4 not a sports car! And who really cares! We all know that we wouldn't own anything else ey!

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Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:53 am

lukestoyzx wrote:This is goin around over here and I'll say it again. You pull a move like that on the black top then you deserve to roll! It's a 4x4 not a sports car! And who really cares! We all know that we wouldn't own anything else ey!

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Can't agree more, I have a few friends that own a 2.8, and have had no issues with the Hilux. Guess if you want to drive like an idiot, you will end up on your roof.
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Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:46 pm

Would like to have the 3rd party test it like the Bosch one on the Ford a while back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qawgq41KUls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:02 pm

LouisZ wrote:Would like to have the 3rd party test it like the Bosch one on the Ford a while back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qawgq41KUls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Now this is a fair test
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Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:15 pm

Forget about the tarr road test.Test it in the bundu.Clock up the kilo offroad usage between the different vehicles and then lets compare.
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Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:11 am

Those few guys that I talk to about the new hilux all said its better than the previous one.

I don't trust the credibility of the that so called moose test anyway, by just watching it.
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Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:39 am

I wonder who sponsor Technikens Varld or whatever they call themselves?

I do feel that if Toyota (japan) have their ducks in a row they should come out with all guns blazing and kill this thing otherwise I can see big damage coming.

We all know the quality and durability of "a Hilux" but my opinion is it is not going to be enough to safe face. Especially in the light that the 2007 model also "failed the test".

Toyota should not remain quiet now.
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Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:10 am

Toyota did respond.
(In Short)
They consider the safety of their clients as highest priority.
They regard the issue in a serious manner.
All Toy products complies to highest safety standards.
Toy is currently in discussion with the idiots that did the test.
(Article in Afrikaans from Maroela Media)
'Moose' Greetings

http://maroelamedia.co.za/tegnologie/mo ... lux-video/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:32 am

Dirka wrote:Toyota did respond.
(In Short)
They consider the safety of their clients as highest priority.
They regard the issue in a serious manner.
All Toy products complies to highest safety standards.
Toy is currently in discussion with the idiots that did the test.
(Article in Afrikaans from Maroela Media)
'Moose' Greetings

http://maroelamedia.co.za/tegnologie/mo ... lux-video/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I know they have responded by saying they take it seriously...it is not sufficient just to say "we are taking it seriously"...show us!!
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Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:20 am

We had this going on Facebook for a long time now, and almost everybody misses the point. The point is not "If you drive like an idiot you will end up on your roof", or "Hilux is made for driving offroad" or "Hilux is the most reliable of all" or even "Hilux has the best resale value" and then of course "Technikens Varld deliberately rigged the test to make Hilux look bad"... Oh, and then the "But we dont have Mooses, meeses, whatever in South Africa"...

Firstly. Technikens Varld was established in 1948 and has been doing the so called "Moose Test" on vehicles in a more or less similar way since then. Any magazine that has been around for that long cannot afford to damage their reputation by rigging tests deliberately to make specific brands look bad. And they could face some serious litigation if it can be proven. Anyway, their target market is the Swedish motorist, who mostly drive Volvos and listen to ABBA..

These guys identified a need to test vehicles that drive on Swedish roads for a specific road hazard they experience in Sweden. The Moose wandering into the road. What is a moose? A moose is a big type of deer. A fully grown moose stands 1.4–2.1 m high at the shoulder and weighs about from 380 to 700 kg and it has huge antlers. All in all not a beast you want sitting on your passenger seat. Their problem is real, and the need for the test as well, as many people in Sweden died in moose collisions, or in the act of trying to avoid moose collisions. So, they didnt think this test up to boost their own sales figures or create sensation as some people think.

They started testing a variety of vehicles, a long time ago. Some passed the test, some failed the test. When a vehicle fails the test, the manufacturer is informed of said failure of moose test and they then go and attempt to fix the problem. The Mercedes A Class rolled over on the moose test, and later when the new models came out in a follow up test the A Class didnt roll over. Well done Mercedes Benz.... Jeep Cherokee and others also failed the test and mostly came back with improvements in later models etc etc. To date no manufacturer has actually came up with any concrete evidence that the tests are rigged, and therefor no law suits have been filed against Technikens Varld for defamation or crimen injuria or whatever they call it in Sweden. And I am sure that a big company like Toyota would sue the pants off them at the drop of a hat if the evidence was there.

The test might not be 100% scientifically worked out, and only consist of a few cones and a piece of tarmac, but it is based on a maneuver that 100's if not 1000's of drivers execute every day. It is called an "Emergency lane Change (ELC)", or a basic accident avoidance maneuver. I see Giniel de Villiers also commented somewhere that it is well known fact that one does not swerve to avoid something in the road, one simply brakes, and then collides with said object. What if that something in the road is a 3 year old kid running after a ball?

So in order to keep you Hilux on its 4 wheels is to NOT do an ELC maneuver. Great, that settles it then, problem solved, lets have a braai and a beer.

The fact of the matter is, the majority of people WILL perform an ELC as a first instinct, and will probably end up upside down in a ditch when he/she drives a Hilux. Also bear in mind that the moose test was done at 37mph (<60km/h). That is in the case of the Hilux, the other bakkies managed to stay in their wheels at higher speeds than that. So "driving like an idiot" does not really hold water, as our poor inexperienced driver will probably execute the ELC at more than 60km/h.

So, what is the point then?

We will get there... They tested a Hilux in 2007. It almost fell over. Toyota was informed, and they were extremely concerned about it. Then in 2016, 9 years later with a new and improved, better and safer Hilux on the market, the Moose test was done again... With similar results... mmmm

Now here is the point. After the initial test in 2007 and the shock and awe in the boardrooms of Toyota at the results (or so we would hope), nothing has been done to improve the Hilux's ability to do an ELC.

That is my take on it, but then again.. maybe I am wrong. I read up a bit on Technikens Varld and it looks like the testing these guys do is pretty ligit. I also read about Mooses... They are huge... And they kill occupants of vehicles that crash into them. Like kudu's sometimes do.. And I read about our own pedestrian road death toll problem... We might not have mooses wandering into our road, but we have people... and in the rural areas, we have cattle... Somehow I think they (and us Hilux drivers) deserve to be able to avoid each other when we meet unexpectedly on a road somewhere... :surrender: :surrender: :surrender:
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Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:17 am

Uitstekende post Thys! (waar is die like button).

Volgens my is Toyota tjoepstil oor die hele storie (behalwe hulle eerste reaksie soos reeds genoem hierbo).

Die bohaai gaan nie 'n stille dood sterf nie - dis alreeds te veel opgeblaas in die media - Toyota sal iets moet se of doen. Al is dit net om te se.."Reg manne, ons nuwe Hilux kan nog steeds nie rondom 'n moose hardloop nie maar julle moet darem besef behalwe vir dit is dit die beste bakkie :naah: :D: "

of

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Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:20 pm

Ek dink dis all genoem.

Daai Rooi Hilux was die model SONDER Esc. Ons modelle in SA het in. Dit behoort beter te doen.

Ek weet Bosch in Aus het die Ford in 2014 getoets std en dan met Ome in, ek het die link gepost.

Ek verneem nou dat Bosch vroeg die jaar die 2016 Hilux ook so getoets het met Ome in, dis om die Australiaanse wet ADR(Australian Design Rules)035-5 te slaag. Hulle noem dit ESC sine with dwell performance test. Die padwette daar is nogals stram. Net onthou die wet geld vir voertuie sonder(standard) of met ander suspensies in.

Hulle se die toets word gedoen met bewegings op die stuurwiel tot op 70 grade teen 'n snelheid van 80km/h. Hulle noem dit " Double lane change manoeuvres", nie die moose test.

Ek het aangevra vir die Report. Ek sal julle laat weet as ek dit het.
Last edited by LouisZ on Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:20 pm

I still think the test is inconsistent. Maybe the Hilux has an issue yes but if you do not remove all the variables and do the test consistently you cannot measure the brands against each other.

Look at the point if turn in and the direction of the front wheels for each of these pics and make your own conclusions:
AmarokTurnin.JPG
AmarokTurnin.JPG (23.45 KiB) Viewed 2204 times
NavaraTurnin.JPG
NavaraTurnin.JPG (21.54 KiB) Viewed 2204 times
HiluxTurnin.JPG
HiluxTurnin.JPG (22.69 KiB) Viewed 2204 times
Amarok.JPG
Amarok.JPG (22.28 KiB) Viewed 2204 times
Navara.JPG
Navara.JPG (24.16 KiB) Viewed 2204 times
Hilux.JPG
Hilux.JPG (24.28 KiB) Viewed 2204 times
On both the Navara and the Amarok they come in from a wider angle and seem to turn in sooner. At the mid point of the lane change the front wheels on both the Navara and Amarok are already pointing in the other direction and the Hilux still pointing straight ahead. They would then have to steer more aggressive to try and keep it in the other lane.
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Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:31 pm

Ek sien.

Ook dan. Vergelyk hulle Appels met Appels? VW, Ford, Navara het Esc in, daai Hilux nie.

Kyk na hoe so toets moet gedoen word Appendix 2, van Para 4 af.

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2013L01848" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:36 pm

Point taken Cassie. But, the test is not a Hilux vs Navara vs Amarok test. It is a test to see if the ELC maneuver can be completed. Let's forget about our brand bias here for a moment.

The inexperienced driver is not going to go through the motions of noting exactly where the left front wheel is when turning the steering wheel this way or that and when the exact right time is to change direction. The inexperienced driver is going to make a sudden movement to one side and then the other.

We can argue this until the cows come home, but we must never loose sight of the fact that the danger exists, clearly, that the Hilux can tip over during such a maneuver.
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Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:45 pm

https://youtu.be/8oZ-dcApWuw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c42LBLiG9Bw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

En die?

Weet nie om hulle te laai om te speel nie. :shh:
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Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:54 pm

En?
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Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:55 pm

Daar slag dit die toets. Geen wielle wat in die lug is.
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Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:11 pm

Maar met aftermarket modifikasies Louis?

Die Swede het 'n standaard Hilux gevat. En as jy verder in die video kyk het hulle 'n Hilux met 17" wiele ook getoets en 'n beter resultaat gekry.

Weereens, ons moenie toelaat dat ons verblind raak deur brand bias nie. Die toets is wat dit is, dis gedokumenteer en dis gepubliseer.

Met allerhande tweaks en mods kan mens die Hilux sekerlik so kry dat hy nie wiele oplig nie, maar nie almal wat 'n nuwe Hilux gaan koop spandeer daardie ekstra geld nie. Die goed is so duur min mense kan dit bekostig..

Ek se weer, die punt is dat Toyota 9 jaar gelede al geweet het van die probleem, maar dat daar tot nou toe nog niks daaraan gedoen is om dit reg te stel nie. Ek byt nie aan die storie dat mens R500K + vir 'n voertuig betaal, en dan moet jy self op eie onkoste die aftermarket suspensie en bande opsit om hom veilig te maak nie.. Daardie basiese veiligheid moet ingebou wees by die R500K..
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Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:36 pm

Daai is die Std Hilux Revo met Esc wat slaag. Ek wag vir die report op swart op wit van Bosch/Arb af wat hulle die toets gedoen het met Ome in.

Klaar mail gekry dat die Bosch toets geslaag het.

Let op dat die toets deur 'n Rekenaar gedoen is en nie deur 'n mens nie. Die input kom van die rekenaar af om by die toets kriteria te voldoen soos die ADR dit vereis.
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Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:50 pm

CasKru wrote:I still think the test is inconsistent. Maybe the Hilux has an issue yes but if you do not remove all the variables and do the test consistently you cannot measure the brands against each other.

Look at the point if turn in and the direction of the front wheels for each of these pics and make your own conclusions:
AmarokTurnin.JPG
NavaraTurnin.JPG
HiluxTurnin.JPG
Amarok.JPG
Navara.JPG
Hilux.JPG

On both the Navara and the Amarok they come in from a wider angle and seem to turn in sooner. At the mid point of the lane change the front wheels on both the Navara and Amarok are already pointing in the other direction and the Hilux still pointing straight ahead. They would then have to steer more aggressive to try and keep it in the other lane.
Cassie ek dink wat dit ten minste wys is dat die toets definitief NIE konsekwent gedoen is nie en ek stem dat 'n rekenaartoets meer gewig sal dra om al die bakkies presies onder dieselfde omstandighede te plaas.

Toyota sal egter hulle monde moet oopmaak en hulleself verdedig. Die stilswye hang swaar in die lug. :shock:
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Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:54 pm

CasKru wrote:I still think the test is inconsistent. Maybe the Hilux has an issue yes but if you do not remove all the variables and do the test consistently you cannot measure the brands against each other.

Look at the point if turn in and the direction of the front wheels for each of these pics and make your own conclusions:
AmarokTurnin.JPG
NavaraTurnin.JPG
HiluxTurnin.JPG
Amarok.JPG
Navara.JPG
Hilux.JPG

On both the Navara and the Amarok they come in from a wider angle and seem to turn in sooner. At the mid point of the lane change the front wheels on both the Navara and Amarok are already pointing in the other direction and the Hilux still pointing straight ahead. They would then have to steer more aggressive to try and keep it in the other lane.
absolutely spot on..... Remember they down played the current model when it was released saying it will do better against the ranger for example...now they are coming up with all sorts of tactics. Go Hilux..i will say it again 'hilux is not for sissies.. :yahoo:
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Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:57 pm

I got the Report.

Only bad thing I do not have the permission to post it here. I can only show it in house. :eh:

Hugo I am near to you so I don't mind showing it to you on my Laptop.
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Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:31 pm

LouisZ wrote:I got the Report.

Only bad thing I do not have the permission to post it here. I can only show it in house. :eh:

Hugo I am near to you so I don't mind showing it to you on my Laptop.
Louis, you are most welcome for a coffee/beer. Sal lekker wees om jou te sien!
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Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:11 am

Hugo dankie vir die koffie. Laat weet maar as jy meer vrae het.
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Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:50 am

Hmmm......my take on things:

Let's all agree that the test is done correctly.

Still, and this is maybe only me.........the fact that a Tata will only roll at 5 MPH faster than a 2,4 Hilux, wo'nt sway me into rushing off to my nearest Tata dealer. Or whatever other make.

BUT......must say, on a R 500 000 + bakkie (that's what it is - a bakkie), I also do'nt want to worry about stuff like a sub standard suspension.

There's a Reader in I think the latest SA 4X4 that complained a LOT about his 2,8's rear suspension on a recent Kgalagadi trip.

A new DC 4X4's very very first and foremost "feature" should be its suspension. It can be ugly, or have an old engine, or a fishfinder glued to the dash, etc etc.........but the suspension is not negotiable on that sort of price range vehicle.

Although - I've driven a 2,4 DC on a bad sinkplaatpad a month ago, and I was VERY impressed with its road holding. There's a specific turn on that road that only a Nissan Patrol could handle so far......not even a VX 200 could. The Hilux felt like it was on rails.
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Low Range 4WD
Low Range 4WD
Posts: 223
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 2:45 pm
Town: Cape Town
Vehicle: SFA Hilux 4Y EFi $ 95 Series Prado
Real Name: Richard
Club VHF Licence: HC 286

Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:04 pm

ThysdJ wrote:We had this going on Facebook for a long time now, and almost everybody misses the point. The point is not "If you drive like an idiot you will end up on your roof", or "Hilux is made for driving offroad" or "Hilux is the most reliable of all" or even "Hilux has the best resale value" and then of course "Technikens Varld deliberately rigged the test to make Hilux look bad"... Oh, and then the "But we dont have Mooses, meeses, whatever in South Africa"...

Firstly. Technikens Varld was established in 1948 and has been doing the so called "Moose Test" on vehicles in a more or less similar way since then. Any magazine that has been around for that long cannot afford to damage their reputation by rigging tests deliberately to make specific brands look bad. And they could face some serious litigation if it can be proven. Anyway, their target market is the Swedish motorist, who mostly drive Volvos and listen to ABBA..

These guys identified a need to test vehicles that drive on Swedish roads for a specific road hazard they experience in Sweden. The Moose wandering into the road. What is a moose? A moose is a big type of deer. A fully grown moose stands 1.4–2.1 m high at the shoulder and weighs about from 380 to 700 kg and it has huge antlers. All in all not a beast you want sitting on your passenger seat. Their problem is real, and the need for the test as well, as many people in Sweden died in moose collisions, or in the act of trying to avoid moose collisions. So, they didnt think this test up to boost their own sales figures or create sensation as some people think.

They started testing a variety of vehicles, a long time ago. Some passed the test, some failed the test. When a vehicle fails the test, the manufacturer is informed of said failure of moose test and they then go and attempt to fix the problem. The Mercedes A Class rolled over on the moose test, and later when the new models came out in a follow up test the A Class didnt roll over. Well done Mercedes Benz.... Jeep Cherokee and others also failed the test and mostly came back with improvements in later models etc etc. To date no manufacturer has actually came up with any concrete evidence that the tests are rigged, and therefor no law suits have been filed against Technikens Varld for defamation or crimen injuria or whatever they call it in Sweden. And I am sure that a big company like Toyota would sue the pants off them at the drop of a hat if the evidence was there.

The test might not be 100% scientifically worked out, and only consist of a few cones and a piece of tarmac, but it is based on a maneuver that 100's if not 1000's of drivers execute every day. It is called an "Emergency lane Change (ELC)", or a basic accident avoidance maneuver. I see Giniel de Villiers also commented somewhere that it is well known fact that one does not swerve to avoid something in the road, one simply brakes, and then collides with said object. What if that something in the road is a 3 year old kid running after a ball?

So in order to keep you Hilux on its 4 wheels is to NOT do an ELC maneuver. Great, that settles it then, problem solved, lets have a braai and a beer.

The fact of the matter is, the majority of people WILL perform an ELC as a first instinct, and will probably end up upside down in a ditch when he/she drives a Hilux. Also bear in mind that the moose test was done at 37mph (<60km/h). That is in the case of the Hilux, the other bakkies managed to stay in their wheels at higher speeds than that. So "driving like an idiot" does not really hold water, as our poor inexperienced driver will probably execute the ELC at more than 60km/h.

So, what is the point then?

We will get there... They tested a Hilux in 2007. It almost fell over. Toyota was informed, and they were extremely concerned about it. Then in 2016, 9 years later with a new and improved, better and safer Hilux on the market, the Moose test was done again... With similar results... mmmm

Now here is the point. After the initial test in 2007 and the shock and awe in the boardrooms of Toyota at the results (or so we would hope), nothing has been done to improve the Hilux's ability to do an ELC.

That is my take on it, but then again.. maybe I am wrong. I read up a bit on Technikens Varld and it looks like the testing these guys do is pretty ligit. I also read about Mooses... They are huge... And they kill occupants of vehicles that crash into them. Like kudu's sometimes do.. And I read about our own pedestrian road death toll problem... We might not have mooses wandering into our road, but we have people... and in the rural areas, we have cattle... Somehow I think they (and us Hilux drivers) deserve to be able to avoid each other when we meet unexpectedly on a road somewhere... :surrender: :surrender: :surrender:
I agree, every driver once in their lifetime is going to have to perform an ELC, I'd rather do it in a vehicle that"s not gonna flip at even the lowest speeds!

Bet my SFA would pass the Moose test! ;-)


Rich :cooldude:
Back from the Dead!
I dream of a 3UZ, but my 4Y just keeps going 100%
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Blackie gd6
High Range 4WD
High Range 4WD
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:33 pm
Town: Edgemead
Vehicle: Hilux dc 2.8gd6 4x4
Real Name: Ettienne

Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:49 pm

Thanks guys for your insightful responses on the moose test saga.Your making so much sense that I now find myself even more concerned!, surely there's a suspension upgrade/mod out there to remedy this issue. O ja, en ruil him in op n ranger is nie n oplossing nie!
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