You Drive Me Crazy !!!

Here we discuss Hiluxes in general. Your view of the Hilux. For other general discussions please see "open Discussions" under the "Around the Campfire" heading.
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branyster
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Town: Leicester
Vehicle: Toyota Hilux Surf 4Runner
Real Name: Nick

Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:50 pm

Hello,

I bought a Toyota Hilux Surf 4Runner 3.0 litre Automatic 2 weeks ago from Lytham St Annes and drove it home to Leicester. Half way home the car developed a terrible shaking from the front, the steering wheel was going crazy. I've had my MOT garage mechanic examine the car and he checked steering, ball joints, bearings, and suspension, all good. I then had the 2 x front wheels balanced. My mechanic has also done an Oil change on the engine and gearbox, he has also checked the Oil in both Axles which actually look New too. Engine pulls strong. But there is a Vibration when engaging the Auto box into the Drive position driving down the road. On Saturday after the wheel balance, I took the car out into the countryside, driving about 40 or 50 mph. The vibration from the front happened again. It felt like something was holding back the car. I am worried this is a Drive Shaft or Axle problem or worse the Auto box ???
Does anyone know what the problem is ?

I've owned a Toyota Land Cruiser Prado 3.0 Automatic for 14 years and It's been the most reliable car I've ever owned and I've been driving since 1985. So know something serious is wrong with the SURF.

Please Help. :beg: I only bought this 4x4 due to a catastrophic engine failure on my BMW 520 Touring.

Thanks
Nick
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Rigger
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Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:23 pm

I will next replace the universal joints in the drive shaft and check the center carrier bearing if it is fitted with one. Not that familiar with the Surf.
branyster
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Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:35 pm

On Friday 21/9/2018 I took the Surf to a very good 4x4 Mechanic in Leicester, The Garage is called D&G 4x4. Geoff said "how many Garages have you taken this to ?" Only my Mechanic and the MOT Garage he uses called Graham Goode Racing" Geoff then asked If I'd like to see what he had discovered on the Toyota Surf !  YES of course. Geoff got his Mechanic to sit inside the car to operate the Steering and then Raised the 4 Post Lift. We then Took a L@@k !  Well I was Gog Smacked !  It was So Obvious to See the FAULTS with the Car from Underneath.

Oh WOW !  How did the MOT garage mechanic who examined the car who checked the steering, ball joints, suspension, and found NO Issues have Missed these Faults??

The Steering Rack and the Bar above it ALL had Shot Warn Out Rubbers or are they called Bushes ?  The Bar on the Rear had similar Fault too.  Surely these are all MOT Failures ? The Ball Joints may also be Suspect. I am Hoping these items will FIX the Shacking Steering and Vibrations.

 No Idea how much this will all Cost.
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Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:44 am

Check your steering damper shock as well...
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HABOOB means "Dust Storm"
branyster
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Vehicle: Toyota Hilux Surf 4Runner
Real Name: Nick

Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:36 pm

D&G 4x4 have fitted the new Power Steering rack mounting bush kit and the Drop Link Anti Roll bar bushes to for the Front but the 19mm Drop Link Anti Roll bar bushes on the rear were the wrong size.

The Steering has improved alot but there is still an issue, but what ? The steering through the rack feels a little loose around 40 - 50 in the countryside. Or is it the BF Goodriche tyres ?

Finally, turning left into my driveway this morning after returning from a Sunday Car Booty (turning almost at full lock the car felt like it was being held back) But I got out and the Wheel was not touching the Wheel Arche.

No idea if this is a Steering or Driveshaft Issue...
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branyster
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Vehicle: Toyota Hilux Surf 4Runner
Real Name: Nick

Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:07 pm

UPDATE:

REPLY FROM https://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/ne ... &p=3997542
This is a common issue on the Surf and 90 Prado, it is play in the steering column.
There are a few fixes on various websites, some involve removing the column and doing a spot welding. Other fix it with some sort of rubber gaiter. If you can LIVE with it, it's not a MOT failure, just a bit annoying on uneven ground.

MY REPLY to https://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/ne ... &p=3997542
You are a good person for telling me this IS indeed a FAULT, like you say, I'm convinced this has been an Ongoing Issue and No MOT Station (garage) has Picked up on this FAULT with the TOYOTA. I cannot LIVE with this, I won't enjoy driving the SURF and it will have to GO if I cannot get this FIXED.

Why are you so sure it is Play in the Steering Column? Can you point me to the FIX for this? Welding is Fine and or the Rubber Gaiter FIX. And why when turning left into my driveway at almost full lock, the car felt like it was being held back, but the Wheel was not touching the Wheel Arch?

This Might Resolve my Problem? But I'm not sure I have this Steering Box...

Steering Box: Steering Box Adjustment on a Toyota 4Runner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3KFaAbCr2Y
branyster
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Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:35 pm

OH DEAR !!! More Bad News ! Email from RoughTrax.

We don’t list a steering box for your model, I see the link in the email states the video is of a 4Runner which is the earlier model to yours so I don’t think it will be of any use.
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Mud Dog
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Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:24 pm

Ouch! :blink:
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.

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Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
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Mud Dog
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Real Name: Andy
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Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:34 pm

Man, the Surf was basically an adaptation of the Hilux / 4Runner - there might be some cosmetic differences besides the fact that one is an SUV and the other a truck but there must be commonality in the drive trains, motors and other mechanical spares incl.steering components . I would look at images of the different Surf, Hilux / 4Runner boxes and compare them. :think:
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.

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Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
branyster
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Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:51 pm

I think I have found the article to Weld the loose slip joint on the Steering.

https://www.ttora.com/forum/2-early-...ay-rattle.html
branyster
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Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:57 pm

UPDATE


1.) I've Bought and Replaced the "STEERING RACK BUSHES, ARB LINKS and BUSHES"
https://www.milneroffroad.com/toyota...-rack-bush-kit

2.) The Loose Slip joint on the Steering column is on my List to Do !
The problem is that a slip joint along the steering column, (which is designed to collapse during a front end collision), develops a small amount of play over time. Toyota has never done a recall for this issue, so it's probably safe to say that the slip joint won't actually come completely loose to the point that you cannot steer the car. The upper steering assembly can be replaced completely, but many people who have done this report having the problem come back after some time.


3.) The stiffness on full lock, is also a common fault.
I will get D*G 4x4 to examine the TIE ROD ENDS (inner and outer), UPPER AND LOWER BALL JOINTS.

I also heard a clunk from front left steering when parking yesterday (Monday) Moving the small gear lever out of 4x4 drive yesterday took some time to do. While in Park, I did hear noises and whinning... But I eventually got it back into 2 wheel drive and the Steering was smoother / easier including full lock...

I do also hear a vibration pulling away, but I've No idea what that noise is.... drive shaft ? Gearbox ?
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Tim86
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Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:26 pm

If you are hearing gearbox noises and whining then the vibration may be from the box. Are you hearing vibration, feeling it, or both? Does it only occur in 4wd or both 4wd & 2wd. Try and isolate the noise/vibration - gearbox area, middle (rear prop), or rear(axle/diff). Is it only when pulling away (don't know autos - torque converter??), or within a certain speed range (prop or diff bearings maybe, or prop unbalanced, or rear diff pinion loose, wheels unbalanced). Feel for play on all bearings down the driveline.

It doesn't have a front auto locker by any chance?
branyster
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Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:48 pm

Thanks for reply Tim. The vibration moaning is usually when pulling away. I will pass on your thoughts to Geoff at D&G 4x4 Specialists in Leicester.
branyster
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Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:40 pm

I've just been to see Geoff at D&G 4x4 Specialists in Leicester. His 4 post lift had a vehicle on it. So my car did not get inspected. Geoff has asked me to find out if anyone sells a Steering Damper for the Toyota Hilux Surf 4Runner 3rd Generation ? It was shaking from the Front again
branyster
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Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:41 pm

:blink:
Geoff today also advised I get the Toyota Surf's Wheel Alignment check done next too. That and replace the Rear Anti-Roll Bushes which I ordered today.
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Mud Dog
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Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:44 am

Glad to see that you haven't given up Nick and that you're still plugging away at the problems. :thumbup: You're going to get to the bottom of it sooner or later. :winkx: :D:

The steering dampers should be readily available from after market spares outlets or shock absorber distributors. Good luck.
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.

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Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
branyster
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Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:18 pm

Hello Mud Dog !

Regards to the Dampers, Can you point me into the right direction of these after market suppliers ? Sorry I don't have a Clue.
YES, I won't Stop until this Car is Sorted.

Many Thanks
Nick
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Mud Dog
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Real Name: Andy
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Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:15 pm

I don't know the names of UK spares suppliers but I believe you get the Monroe brand of dampers over there. They produce steering dampers and should be able to supply the correct one for your model. The same will probably hold true for many of the other damper brands available to you there. Check with your local shock absorber fitment centres, they must be able to source for you or point you in the right direction.

I mentioned Monroe because they are a decent quality product with a reasonable price range, but brands like Bilstein, Old Man Emu, Fox etc will be able to supply the correct steering dampers as well but they are normally mote pricey because their products are more in the "performance" range.

Good luck, let us know how it went. :winkx:
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.

Image
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Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
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Mud Dog
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Real Name: Andy
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Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:26 pm

P.S. Your man, Geoff should be able to steer you right. :scratch:
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.

Image
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Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
branyster
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Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:49 pm

Oh dear, more problems... I had the Toyota Hilux Surf on a Hunter Alignment machine today (Saturday) at 8:30am and the Front Camber, Caster, and Toe are all out on the Front Wheels. Unfortunately I couldn't get it resolved due to the Caster / Camber Adjusters are Seized. I drove back disappointed. Geoff the mechanic will have to undo these.
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Mud Dog
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Real Name: Andy
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Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:08 am

Not good to hear, Nick.

Sadly when buying an older machine one doesn't know what underlying problems come with it and there's always a risk factor, but if it's not a total pig in a poke and you didn't pay premium, it's mostly worth it to restore, especially if you're the handy type or learn as you go along. That not just from a financial aspect (they command a pretty decent resale value), but also the knowledge gained from the restoration point of view and then of course the pure driving pleasure.

Here's hoping that there are no more surprises. Good luck. :thumbup:
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.

Image
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Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
branyster
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Real Name: Nick

Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:00 pm

Nearly two months later...

My 4x4 garage has sorted the Surf !

They replaced a number of parts, Front & Rear Anti Roll Bushes, Steering Rack Bushes, New Rear Wheel bearings, 2 x New Wish Bones, Camber bolts. Having to CUT OFF the Wish Bones and Camber Bolts and replace with NEW allowed them to have the Wheel Alignment done. So the car drives straight but I'm not happy with the driving experience. It is no where near as comfortable as my Toyota Land Cruiser Prado 90. You feel every bump in the road, the cab roll is terrible over speed humps.

Does the Suspension need replacing ??

My 4x4 garage replaced my Rear Wheel Bearings on the Surf too. The old ones needed to Pressed Out and New Bearings Pressed In. Then the car was sent for and MOT.

At the weekend I wanted to take a look underneath and Grease all my new shiny parts to help Stop them Rusting from the Salt on our UK Roads.

Annoyingly I found my Cigarette Lighter Power Outlet was no longer working. I cannot find a Fuse for this to check. Any idea how to fix this ?

I find the Surf is very easy to spin the rear wheels. I don't like this. It's something the PRADO does not do as it's always in 4x4 motion.

Thanks
Nick from Leicester - England
branyster
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Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:21 pm

However, thinking back… The Front End Still Feels Loose over rough ground,
The steering Column could still be part of the problem, in that a loose slip joint along in the steering column, (which is designed to collapse during a front end collision), develops a small amount of play over time.
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Mud Dog
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Real Name: Andy
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Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:19 pm

The fuse for the lighter socket is usually behind the Driver's side kick panel (RHS ... you guys also drive on the LHS of the road as do we).

Remember that the Prado and the Surf are not in the same luxury class and the Surf is definitely a rougher ride .... could be that your shocks are too stiff but then you speak of 'severe' cab -roll which indicates either poor shocks or poorly functioning sway bar or torsion bar - not familiar with which your vehicle will have.

The Surf is also light in the rear, so yes, spinning the wheels can happen easily with an open diff. If you have a limited slip diff (LSD) fitted, it will stop that. Again, not sure what your vehicle is fitted with, but if it has a diff-lock then you can't fit an LSD - it's either one or the other and of course you cannot use diff-lock on roadways (unless it's a gravel surface).
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.

Image
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Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
branyster
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Real Name: Nick

Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:34 am

I've checked the drivers side kick panel fuses and I couldn't see any that were blown. I've also checked the Main Fuse box in the Engine Bay. All Good.

Yes there is a 4WD drive button on a small gear stick next to my Auto Gearbox Lever. It normally illuminates a light on the dash when I engage it, but not this morning in the car park ! Typical...

So you are saying I cannot use this on a Road ?

Regards,
Nick
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Mud Dog
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Real Name: Andy
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Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:56 am

Unless the vehicle is fitted with a centre diff, you should not engage 4WD on a hard surface that doesn't allow the tyres to slip a little. You can do some serious damage and it's unsafe (the vehicle will resist turning).

In a straight line it's no problem but in a turn, even a slight one, the front axle will travel in a wider arc than the rear - the combined rotation of the two front wheels will be more than the combined rotation of the two rear wheels - the front prop-shaft will therefore want to turn faster than the rear prop-shaft (called axle wind-up). If the surface does not allow slippage, something will break.

A centre diff that is open (not locked) will allow the differing RPM of the two prop-shafts and can therefore be used safely without risk of damage on hard surfaces when using 4WD. A locked centre diff will behave the same as a vehicle without a centre diff.

Engaging 4WD on a hard surface will have the same issues even with a LSD fitted to either one of both front and rear diffs. An LSD will relieve diff wind-up but not axle wind-up.

AWD vehicles (normally full time 4WD) have some form of slippage device/s in the drive-train, usually visco couplings to allow for this. :winkx:
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.

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Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
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Haboob
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Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:26 pm

"I also heard a clunk from front left steering when parking yesterday (Monday) Moving the small gear lever out of 4x4 drive yesterday took some time to do. While in Park, I did hear noises and whinning... But I eventually got it back into 2 wheel drive and the Steering was smoother / easier including full lock..."

This is what I picked up some time ago.
Maybe you are needlessly engaging 4WD on hard surfaces.
This will cause the vehicle to feel as though it is being held back (especially when turning)
and also not wanting to turn sharply or at all.
I regularly get these symptoms and steep hard terrain especially using 4WD Low Range
I honestly think that this is also the biggest part of your problem.
Do not forget about the steering damper I mentioned earlier.
I broke one a few years back which had similar symptoms to what you had,
made driving difficult and caused the steering and whole vehicle to shudder & shake,
after replacing the problem went away...
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HABOOB means "Dust Storm"
branyster
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Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:12 pm

The 4WD drive button on a small gear stick next to my Auto Gearbox Lever fails to illuminate a light on the dash when I engage it, but this use to work, Typical.
Why would this fail ? I'm tired of chucking money at this car. please help.
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Mud Dog
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Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:08 pm

I'm not familiar with the Surf (we never got them here) but when you speak of a button that engages 4WD, then it must be electrically engaged, probably with the use of an ADD (automatic diff de-coupler).

So I'm assuming one of two possibilities - it's not engaging or it is but the dash light is not coming on. First would be to determine if it is in fact engaging or not so that one knows where to start trouble-shooting.
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.

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Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
branyster
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Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:31 pm

Strangely I tried it today and after a few minutes it came on. Maybe it needs a minute or so ? So I can only use it off road or in Snow.
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Mud Dog
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Club VHF Licence: HC103

Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:35 pm

OK, then it's all working. The light most likely only comes on when the ADD kicks in .... it might or might not kick in immediately depending on the alignment of the meshing mechanism in the diff at the time. If not aligned it will remain unmeshed with the light off until a differential brings it into alignment, then it slips in and the light comes on to tell you that it is now engaged.

If you're on a slippery surface or one where traction is not good, as soon as the drive axle (rear in this case) wheels slip, that creates the differential for the ADD to mesh and it engages.

There is absolutely no point and no benefit to use 4WD where you have good or even fair traction - as mentioned above it can be unsafe and the risk of damage is high. So yes, only use off-road when there is a need to or in the snow where conditions are slippery. :winkx:
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.

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Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
Mars
LR4WD, Lockers, Crawler Gears
LR4WD, Lockers, Crawler Gears
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Real Name: Marnus
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Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:00 am

Agree 100% with Andy. The system is working correctly. It does not engage immediately like with a manual shifter. I think its time to stop looking for faults and to enjoy your Surf. :thumbup:

It is after all a Toyota.
branyster
High Range 2WD
High Range 2WD
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Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:42 pm
Town: Leicester
Vehicle: Toyota Hilux Surf 4Runner
Real Name: Nick

Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:22 am

Thanks Andy (Mud Dog) and Mars you are Right ! It's is about Time I started using the Surf and enjoying it. I've used it to go to work for the last two weeks and I am warming to it. But It is no where near as comfortable as my Toyota Land Cruiser Prado. You feel every bump in the road, the cab roll is terrible over speed humps.

As I am the 3rd owner, how do I know if the Drive Shafts and 4WD unit is healthy ? It sounds to me if previous owners have used the Surf 4x4 on tarmac they could of done some damage?

I am such a worrier ! lol

Regards,
Nick
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Mud Dog
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Vehicle: '90 SFA Hilux DC 4X4, Full OME, 110mm lift. Brospeed branch, 50mm ss freeflow exhaust. 30 x 9.5 Discoverer S/T's on Viper mags. L/R tank. (AWOL) '98 LTD 2.4 SFA, dual battery system. Dobinson suspension, LR tanks, 31" BF mud's.
Real Name: Andy
Club VHF Licence: HC103

Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:44 am

Oh yeah, definitely not as comfortable as a Prado which is already edging into the luxury market. The Surf is a lot more on the "rough and ready" side. You should try an older SFA Hilux, that solid front axle really throws ride comfort out the window :D: but then it's a choice of what you want to do with the vehicle and the SFA can withstand excessive abuse and still come through smiling.

I don't think that you need be concerned about drive-train damage at this point if everything is still working - when something goes wrong you will know about it. Ride it and enjoy it. :winkx:
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.

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Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
branyster
High Range 2WD
High Range 2WD
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:42 pm
Town: Leicester
Vehicle: Toyota Hilux Surf 4Runner
Real Name: Nick

Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:58 pm

Does the Surf have a problem with the rear end ? I think I nearly lost it going round a corner tonight.
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Mud Dog
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Vehicle: '90 SFA Hilux DC 4X4, Full OME, 110mm lift. Brospeed branch, 50mm ss freeflow exhaust. 30 x 9.5 Discoverer S/T's on Viper mags. L/R tank. (AWOL) '98 LTD 2.4 SFA, dual battery system. Dobinson suspension, LR tanks, 31" BF mud's.
Real Name: Andy
Club VHF Licence: HC103

Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:34 am

Pretty light in the tail .... IIRC the rear body is glass fibre. I would imagine that it behaves more like a pick-up truck ... also seem to recall that it was built on the IFS Tacoma / Hilux platform.
When your road comes to an end ...... you need a HILUX!.

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Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers ... what you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Don't take life too seriously ..... no-one gets out alive.
It's not about waiting for storms to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.
And be yourself ..... everyone else is taken!
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