Household Electrical advise...pls!

[OOOOMS]

In need some advice on the following: 12 Volt lighting only!

Backround:
Currently have a double story so I want to start upstairs where there are x4 bedrooms and x2 bathrooms and a staircase.
All is currently connected to 220volt, and mainly downlights 12 volt.

What I would like to do is:
1) Run all upstairs downlights from deep cycle battery's, using 12 volt / 3 watt LED's, these: http://www.4x4direct.co.za/shop/index.p ... cts_id=139" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2) Powered by a solar panel through a regulator.
3 Via a separate or existing wall switch.

Nou my question is.....a few and perhaps you or someone can assist.

1) Can I just go ahead and do this by myself, which I am pretty capable of, without having any 'electrical compliance' hassles one day when I sell?
2) As it is all 12 volt, Solar panel ---> Battery ---> 12 Volt lights (LED's), do I need to run (any wiring through the DB ? As everything is 12 Volt?
3) Does the battery have to be hosed in a special box as with the older type of transformers (220v / 12v)
4) Anything els I need to know before going ahead with this conversion?

Your help would be appreciated

[ChrisF]

interesting question ....

wonder what the electrical regulations say

[Mud Dog]

AFAIK you do not need a COC for such a 12v installation as long as you do not connect anything to the DB. What you can do is to leave your existing installation in place and fully functional as a backup. Since you're only doing lights it's easy and you can run your 12v wires thorough the existing conduits to your light switches which you replace with "double-up" units ... i.e. if it's a single lever switch, replace it with a 2 lever .... or just add as many levers as 12v lights fitted (one of your limiting factors will be the number of cables in the conduit). All 12v cables should be tagged as 12v. A battery box is advisable anyway to contain any possible battery leakage.

Go for it .... I have been thinking along similar lines myself.

[OOOOMS]

Regarding the light switches, I would put in the 'red' ones for example and leave the 220v ones in place, however I do not want to run a duel system, as it becomes pretty complicated or can unless you have say a centre light in the room (220V) with the rest running off battery power.

The plan is also to have a digital gauge somewhere inside the house indicatin the voltage of the battery should it run low. That will mean the current draw is then larger than the 'input' of say the solar panel and I would then have to increase the number of panels, to keep up the demand.

Yes tx Andy to box the battery is a good idea

[Mud Dog]

Regarding the light switches, I would put in the 'red' ones for example and leave the 220v ones in place, however I do not want to run a duel system, as it becomes pretty complicated or can unless you have say a centre light in the room (220V) with the rest running off battery power.

The plan is also to have a digital gauge somewhere inside the house indicatin the voltage of the battery should it run low. That will mean the current draw is then larger than the 'input' of say the solar panel and I would then have to increase the number of panels, to keep up the demand.

Yes tx Andy to box the battery is a good idea

That's what I meant. A dual system isn't complicated .... easy to use the existing 'infrastructure' (Viz conduits and switch boxes) .... just steal some of Danelle's red nail varnish and paint the levers red for the 12v lights.

[Thabogrobler]

.

The plan is also to have a digital gauge somewhere inside the house indicating the voltage of the battery should it run low. That will mean the current draw is then larger than the 'input' of say the solar panel and I would then have to increase the number of panels, to keep up the demand.

Well, If the lights is in use, it should be dark outside which will mean that the current draw WILL be larger the the input....





my 3 volts worth...

[OOOOMS]

.

The plan is also to have a digital gauge somewhere inside the house indicating the voltage of the battery should it run low. That will mean the current draw is then larger than the 'input' of say the solar panel and I would then have to increase the number of panels, to keep up the demand.

Well, If the lights is in use, it should be dark outside which will mean that the current draw WILL be larger the the input....





my 3 volts worth...

Funny..... But they(the batteries) will be charged during the day when da liggies is af :wink2:

[Rebel 4x4]

Moenie worry nie, oor 'n paar jaar kan jy jou fridge op penlites hardloop soos tegnologie vorder!

[Mud Dog]

Lights are not the worst energy users ... it's all the heating element appliances (Geysers, stoves, washing machines if using hot water, kettles, toasters, micro-waves are energy hungry as well and of course space heaters). The other serious culprits are things that run for long periods like fridges, freezers and swimming pool pump. I have outside lights that I let run all night, and even though they are energy saving bulbs it amounts up to a fair energy consumption over the month. My idea was to convert most of these to 12v and leave the strategic ones on 220v in case of insufficient battery power. To pay itself off would actually take a few years, but at least it would be a green step in the right direction. Have already done a solar geyser and that makes a fair difference, but still paying about a grand+ a month for juice ... still too much.

[OOOOMS]

Another question or two that have come to mind.....

- would there have to be any fuses
ie between the lights and battery
or
between battery and solar panel

- seeing that the LED's only 0.25 Amp, how important is the thickness of the cable?
I know with the 220v to 12 Volt the thickness is determind by the lengh as the standard 12 Volt 50 Watt lamp draws a lot more Amps.

Another issue is the 'lengh' of the cable, from battery to lamp they must be equidistant, as you will have a voltage drop the longer the cable and result in different lumen of the lamp.

[Mud Dog]

Use normal 1.5mm copper core that one would use for 220v, that way the voltage drop will be minimised over different run lengths. Yes, put a fuse between lights and battery, just in case there's a fault ... probably more for battery protection than cables, but worth putting one in.

[kfxnando]

Recently spoke to a friend who is an electrician, about the exact same issue, and he says there are regulation for such set ups, self looking at going down the same road

he dosent gotten back to me on the exact regulations yet, however they do exist

have also Ben told that when one goes the gas stove route, there is now a poffies load of regulations on those gas installation now too

[OOOOMS]

Recently spoke to a friend who is an electrician, about the exact same issue, and he says there are regulation for such set ups, self looking at going down the same road

he dosent gotten back to me on the exact regulations yet, however they do exist

have also Ben told that when one goes the gas stove route, there is now a poffies load of regulations on those gas installation now too

Yip Fernando, the stove there are a number of regulations

Converting the a house however there are two routes to follow and I am not sure if they both apply?

1) Solar ---> Battery ---> 12V lights
2) Solar ---> Battery----> Invertor----> via separate DB

The reason the 2nd one has to go through a DB board is to isolate any 220v danger.

[Family_Dog]

Mark, I have no idea what the regulations might state, but I would use fuses on either side of the battery - load & charging source - and route all the wiring to a separate DB board. I would keep all wiring totally separate from the 220v AC wiring, not even using the same conduit unless you make this permanent and totally disconnect the 220v AC side..

The Inverter is obviously only required for any 220v AC appliances that you want to run, provided that they fall within the ratings of the inverter.


-F_D

[Maddoglips]

Hi Mark

There is regs governing this, but I'll have to go dig it out and see how far they go.

You would have to adhere to the following as a minimum though in my opinion.
1. Seperation and Identification - Don't run 12V DC and 220V AC in the same pipes/trunking ect.. and label as you'll have mixed supply's.
2. Either you can build up a DC panel/DB or use correctly rated fuses for each and every circuit
3. Calcualte the correct wire size on the 12V side as this is critical as the current will increase with the drop in voltage.
4. I would recommend, using the 12V system as a "portable" setup so one day should you wish to sell, you remove the panels and wiring and just return the normal AC lights back to there places. My reasoning for this, every person interprets the SANS 10142 in there own way and this could be a potential for severe headaches when issueing a certificate of compliance as it's not a norm and not every 1 will be clued up on it.

I'll see if I can find the section in the book and send it to you for some reading.

Good Luck

[OOOOMS]

Hi Mark

There is regs governing this, but I'll have to go dig it out and see how far they go.

You would have to adhere to the following as a minimum though in my opinion.
1. Seperation and Identification - Don't run 12V DC and 220V AC in the same pipes/trunking ect.. and label as you'll have mixed supply's.
2. Either you can build up a DC panel/DB or use correctly rated fuses for each and every circuit
3. Calcualte the correct wire size on the 12V side as this is critical as the current will increase with the drop in voltage.
4. I would recommend, using the 12V system as a "portable" setup so one day should you wish to sell, you remove the panels and wiring and just return the normal AC lights back to there places. My reasoning for this, every person interprets the SANS 10142 in there own way and this could be a potential for severe headaches when issueing a certificate of compliance as it's not a norm and not every 1 will be clued up on it.

I'll see if I can find the section in the book and send it to you for some reading.

Good Luck

Tx Zane, yes in our case it is pretty simple via ceiling upstairs ect.

You mention DC Panel / DB with correct fuses?

1) Would this be a standard say 10 way 220v DB ?
2) What type of fuses would they be (same as houshold 5Amp or 10Amp)?

[Maddoglips]

Mark

SANS 10142 Section 5.7 covers some of the points and then you can reference to Section 6 where needed.

I'll try and send this to your e-mail so keep an eye out and let me know if you recieve it.

Sent @ 8:33 to your WOL address should give you all the answers, but shout if there's questions.

[Gunta]

Mark, what solar panel are you using?

[OOOOMS]

Mark

SANS 10142 Section 5.7 covers some of the points and then you can reference to Section 6 where needed.

I'll try and send this to your e-mail so keep an eye out and let me know if you recieve it.

Tx Zane, just recieved it

Mark, what solar panel are you using?

You mean what type or what wattage?

[OOOOMS]

Yo Zane......it's a 384 page document....

[Maddoglips]

LOL

Thaught you had time on your hands to spare

Look in the left corner, and click on the sections to get through it quicker, only section 5.7 and pieces of 6 are relevant to you for now.

Come on you enjoy reading don't you

[Mud Dog]

Yoh, just now we will need COC's for our 12v torches!

[OOOOMS]

Just readng through the first 15 pages has me even more confuzzeled....tx Zane...

[Gunta]

Mark, is it one of the caming ones or a fixed panel and how many watts?

[OOOOMS]

Mark, is it one of the caming ones or a fixed panel and how many watts?

Fixed panel and various wattages.

The wattage is linked to the amount of Amps it puts back into the battery (via a regulator) bringing it down to 12v as the solar panel produces between 18 and 22 watts which will damage the battery.

[Maddoglips]

Just readng through the first 15 pages has me even more confuzzeled....tx Zane...

LOL Sorry

Section 7.9, is also where you wanna look as it's specific to ELV Lighting.

[Gunta]

Cool, I want to come and see your setup once its finished. I also want to do something like that. How many batteries are you going to connect upto this?

Zane please can you send me that attachent too

[OOOOMS]

Cool, I want to come and see your setup once its finished. I also want to do something like that. How many batteries are you going to connect upto this?

Zane please can you send me that attachent too

No problem, you're welcome

I would like to do it in various phases.

Phase 1:
1) Main Bedroom has 12 downlights
2) Bathroom has x4 downlights
3) Kiara's room has x4 downlights

The Amp draw for these LED's each is approx 0.38Amp each therefore total draw would be 7.6Amp/h

These three area's are quite close to one another so may use x1 350Amp battery with a 100 watt solar panel.

This would be more than sufficient as not all x20 lights will be 'on' the whole night. Even a smaller panel woud do if my calculation is correct.

[jacques kotze]

Ooooms,
Jy kan dalk met my Skoonpa praat, hy maak uit van die goed, hy doen gereeld van die dinge vir mense. laat weet as jy met hom wil; praat.

[OOOOMS]

Ooooms,
Jy kan dalk met my Skoonpa praat, hy maak uit van die goed, hy doen gereeld van die dinge vir mense. laat weet as jy met hom wil; praat.

Ja dankie Jacques, ek sal hom 'n lui gee

[Mikie]

Mark, do you mind me asking how much you estimate this setup is going to cost?

[OOOOMS]

No problem, here are some estimates:

Phase1:
100 Watt Panel - R2000.00 calculater @ R20.00 per watt)
Regulator - R350.00
12 Volt 3 Watt led - R80.00 each (excluding the fitting which I currently have) X20 = R1600.00
Cable - Say 2.5mm panel wire 100m of each (Red & Black) approx R200 per roll.
Small DB with breakers and fuses approx. R500.00

[Gunta]

Where did you get the 3w bulbs? A mate of a mate imports them and gave me a price of R50 for the 3w, he was just waiting for the container to come in.

[OOOOMS]

Where did you get the 3w bulbs? A mate of a mate imports them and gave me a price of R50 for the 3w, he was just waiting for the container to come in.

That is indeed a very good price

Is it a 1 x 3 Watt or 3 x 1 watt?

[Gunta]

My mate put them in his whole house and it is 1x 3w (very bright), he is saving over R1500 on electricity every month. He is running it on electricity still with the transformer to bring it down to 12v.
If anyone is interested I will get an updated price and let you know. I have around 60 x down lighters that I want to replace.

[OOOOMS]

My mate put them in his whole house and it is 1x 3w (very bright), he is saving over R1500 on electricity every month. He is running it on electricity still with the transformer to bring it down to 12v.
If anyone is interested I will get an updated price and let you know. I have around 60 x down lighters that I want to replace.

Uhmmmm....?

Does he run it off solar power? Through an inverter?

Or from 220v through a transformer?

[Gunta]

From 220 with a transformer. Each fitting has its own transformer.

[OOOOMS]

From 220 with a transformer. Each fitting has its own transformer.

You have lost me here Mark......

What wattage lamp is he using?
And what is the cost of this per lamp transformer?
The 50VA regular electronic transformer does not work with the LED setup. Besides why would you want to use a 50VA transformer for a 3 Watt LED?
Or is he using 12 volt 50 Watt halogen?

[kfxnando]

Would like to add my 2c

self am planning on going from dollar panel to battery to charge the battery
and from the battery to lights and to investors to run 220v alliances

saw, think it was at outdoor warehouse a few weeks ago, a 2500watt inverted for R4000
and that can easily run a few fridges

on the price LEDs, there has been a steep drop in the price of LEDs

price of 10watt, yes 10watt, R80, and those are blinding bright, that was just the loose LEDs, they do get a bit hot, and need to be mounted on a heatsink
maximum voltage of those were just over 7volts, so one will need to run two in series to keep them shining

food for thought

enjoy

[OOOOMS]

Would like to add my 2c

self am planning on going from dollar panel to battery to charge the battery
and from the battery to lights and to investors to run 220v alliances

saw, think it was at outdoor warehouse a few weeks ago, a 2500watt inverted for R4000
and that can easily run a few fridges

on the price LEDs, there has been a steep drop in the price of LEDs

price of 10watt, yes 10watt, R80, and those are blinding bright, that was just the loose LEDs, they do get a bit hot, and need to be mounted on a heatsink
maximum voltage of those were just over 7volts, so one will need to run two in series to keep them shining

food for thought

enjoy

Yes an invertor is an option, but not for me now anyway, it chews up about 50% of your battery power in no time and you will have to double-up or even tripple your batteries to maintain a few items. But yes can work

[Gunta]

Mark, it is a 3w led globe that works on a 12v supply. The standard down lighters use a 50w bulb and all we do is replace it with the 3w led bulb. It will still run on 220v power unless you want to run it off your batteries, not sure how it will work with the transformer as it already takes it down to 12v unless you get rid of the transformer and connect it directly to your 12v system.

[OOOOMS]

Mark, it is a 3w led globe that works on a 12v supply. The standard down lighters use a 50w bulb and all we do is replace it with the 3w led bulb. It will still run on 220v power unless you want to run it off your batteries, not sure how it will work with the transformer as it already takes it down to 12v unless you get rid of the transformer and connect it directly to your 12v system.

Yes that's the plan, to run it from the battery directly!

I have tested the 12 Volt LED 3 Watt via an electronic transformer but for some reason did not work. Only stayed on for 3 - 5 seconds, perhaps the resistance was to little and could try running say 5 lamps off a 50VA transformer?

[Gunta]

What you can do is remove the transformer from your standard downlighter and connect the 2 wires directly to your setup, it should work as it is a 12v feed.

[Maddoglips]

Mark, it is a 3w led globe that works on a 12v supply. The standard down lighters use a 50w bulb and all we do is replace it with the 3w led bulb. It will still run on 220v power unless you want to run it off your batteries, not sure how it will work with the transformer as it already takes it down to 12v unless you get rid of the transformer and connect it directly to your 12v system.

Yes that's the plan, to run it from the battery directly!

I have tested the 12 Volt LED 3 Watt via an electronic transformer but for some reason did not work. Only stayed on for 3 - 5 seconds, perhaps the resistance was to little and could try running say 5 lamps off a 50VA transformer?

Mark, the reason for it not working off a normal "mouse" transformer, is the output voltage is not a true DC voltage, more AC. Measue it with your multi meter and you'll see what I mean.

You can by the "mouse" transformers for the LED's but they are expensive and I have already had a few issues with the life span of them.

Also, if you are gonna fit the LED's through out the house, you cannot use a normal dimmer, you have to get the more expensive purpose made 1's for the DC dimming.

There is ways around the dimmer story though if you like playing, you can buy the variable pots from any electronics/car spares place and build them into blank switch covers and make your own.

People are still riding the CRAZE of LED's and that's why the prices are still high, no real justification for it, should calm down over time, I hope.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Stef]

Haven't had a chance to look at the regs yet, but from what I remember mixing AC & DC circuits is a no-no...
Last I checked the DC cable bteween txformer & downlighter had a length limit; presumably the 50W halogens...

I need to get hold of the latest regs and go through it

[kfxnando]

Haven't had a chance to look at the regs yet, but from what I remember mixing AC & DC circuits is a no-no...
Last I checked the DC cable bteween txformer & downlighter had a length limit; presumably the 50W halogens...

I need to get hold of the latest regs and go through it

that would make sense, as we just installed four big machines, 24meter long each, and the AC and the DC runs in different trucking on different sides of the machine

[hentey]

Hallo to all you bright sparkies!!!!!
Gentlemen please,this is not as easy as you think this is.Please read the SANS 10142-1 (GREY BOOK) on page 256 reg 7.12 -7.12.2.7 and see what this is all about.This is not only aimed to protect people against electric shock but protect people against possible fire and hazards relating to this.
Please consult a reputable and registered electrician to assist you.Just to inform you 12v ac or dc is now part of the electrical installation as of 2008(Amdt 6) but is not covered by regulation where a parallel connected installation or co -generation is taking place.The absolute need to save on consumption will take us to new levels and I can only see how things are developing at an alarming rate.Led's is the way to go but please don't burn your homes down.

[OOOOMS]

Hallo to all you bright sparkies!!!!!
Gentlemen please,this is not as easy as you think this is.Please read the SANS 10142-1 (GREY BOOK) on page 256 reg 7.12 -7.12.2.7 and see what this is all about.This is not only aimed to protect people against electric shock but protect people against possible fire and hazards relating to this.
Please consult a reputable and registered electrician to assist you.Just to inform you 12v ac or dc is now part of the electrical installation as of 2008(Amdt 6) but is not covered by regulation where a parallel connected installation or co -generation is taking place.The absolute need to save on consumption will take us to new levels and I can only see how things are developing at an alarming rate.Led's is the way to go but please don't burn your homes down.

Tx Hentey and noted, hence the questions

[Donkey]

Mark

All points mentioned above make sense, re: fuses, not mixing ac and dc circuits, labelling and a box (preferably metal) for the battery. But I'll only be able to look through my book tomorrow.

So far here's what I think:

1. Keep the battery outside the house (just for safety I'm scared of such explosions)
2. Solar panel charges battery, battery supplies your LED lights to different rooms, you could install pull switches (no wiring running down the wall) in each room to avoid mixing circuits
3. Make sure all cut wires that could potentially be switched on, are taped properly to avoid any sparking.

You could also get hold of Electrical Contractors Association should we come out more confused after reading and translating the regulations,

Regards.

[OOOOMS]

Mark

All points mentioned above make sense, re: fuses, not mixing ac and dc circuits, labelling and a box (preferably metal) for the battery. But I'll only be able to look through my book tomorrow.

So far here's what I think:

1. Keep the battery outside the house (just for safety I'm scared of such explosions)
2. Solar panel charges battery, battery supplies your LED lights to different rooms, you could install pull switches (no wiring running down the wall) in each room to avoid mixing circuits
3. Make sure all cut wires that could potentially be switched on, are taped properly to avoid any sparking.

You could also get hold of Electrical Contractors Association should we come out more confused after reading and translating the regulations,

Regards.

Tx Tumelo, pull switch idea is also not a bad idea, just a bit 60's....

[Gunta]

History has a habit of repeating itself

[OOOOMS]

History has a habit of repeating itself

Can't wait for the Coca-Cola Yoyo to come out again or will it be a Red Bull.....this time around?

[Stef]

Hey Thumelo, which edition do you have? Since my wireman's is now oficially renewed with the DOL I'm looking at getting the latest edition,but don't want to buy if someone already has it.

Mark, I think it would be a good idea to chat to a alternative energy installer and hear what they say...most electricians around these parts (not everyone, before someone has blue toes again ) seem to be a bit wishy washy, only interested in doing COC's and then they're not even good at that. Speaking from experience here...

Sorry I haven't had an answer for you since we spoke on the phone last week; just been a little busy this side

[OOOOMS]

Stef ek het Edition 1.6 vir jou gemail as dit help of eenigeiets beteken vir jou, wat ek van Zane ontvang het :wink2:

ISBN 978-0-626-21292-6 SANS 10142-1:2008

[hentey]

Haven't had a chance to look at the regs yet, but from what I remember mixing AC & DC circuits is a no-no...
Last I checked the DC cable bteween txformer & downlighter had a length limit; presumably the 50W halogens...

I need to get hold of the latest regs and go through it

Stef you are correct about the length and that must be heat resistant wire as well.I differ about the 12v becoming DC,cause it is not rectified so it stays 12v AC.That is also the reason why the 12v ac LED'S have a dimming problem.As long as you stay with incadecent bulbs you just reduce the voltage if it is AC or DC and the dimmer will work.

[hentey]

Stef ek het Edition 1.6 vir jou gemail as dit help of eenigeiets beteken vir jou, wat ek van Zane ontvang het :wink2:

ISBN 978-0-626-21292-6 SANS 10142-1:2008

Latest that I have is Edition 1.7 of 2009. Contact the SABS at tel 012 4287911 or fax 012 3441568.Hope this helps.

[OOOOMS]

Stef ek het Edition 1.6 vir jou gemail as dit help of eenigeiets beteken vir jou, wat ek van Zane ontvang het :wink2:

ISBN 978-0-626-21292-6 SANS 10142-1:2008

Latest that I have is Edition 1.7 of 2009. Contact the SABS at tel 012 4287911 or fax 012 3441568.Hope this helps.

Tx Hentey

[Donkey]

By the time you're done with this project, you'll be a real oom, Oooms

@ Stef it's a 2006 version that we use at work, but I saw a 2009 version in the thread

[OOOOMS]

By the time you're done with this project, you'll be a real oom, Oooms

@ Stef it's a 2006 version that we use at work, but I saw a 2009 version in the thread

2006, no wonder the squatter camps are burning down.....

[Stef]

Tx Hentey, goed het baie verander die laaste ruk (tegnologie).
Het baie gewerk met LED & DMX controllers vir die casino; deesdae moet jy mooi kyk want die Txformer/PSU's raak al kleiner & lyk dieselfde....het nie rerig gefokus op huishoudelike goed nie.

@ Mark; het gekry; sal daardeur gaan...