WC - Year End Function 2011

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When must we have the WC Year End Function?

Poll ended at Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:00 pm

Last weekend in November
5
45%
First weekend in December
6
55%
 
Total votes: 11

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WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by ThysdJ »

Seeing as we are discussing Club Events etc in the Club AGM, how about getting ideas for our WC Year End Function going. We had a VERY successful YEF last year at Scheppie Saus, and it would be a shame to not see 2011 out with a bang too.

Dates should be at last weekend of Nov, first in Dec, just so that we make sure we dont interfere with other year end functions and annual holidays, and maximise the number of attendants.

I also would like to suggest a camping weekend as it would also give guys from further afield the opportunity to attend.

Seeing as we had it in the Western part of the WC last year, how about going towards the Overberg region this year?

Please let us know your thoughts and suggestions, so that we can organise another nice one for everybody. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Hilux 1 »

Baardskeerdersbos? - OVERSTRAND
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Stubs »

Hi Guys, this place is just around the corner from me....comes recommended, I will do a recce....http://www.voorhoede.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by ThysdJ »

Ters, is daar nice kampgeriewe? en 'n 4x4 roete naby wat ons kan gaan ry?
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Stubs »

plenty of other activities and for those interested we could do some sea fishing at Die Plaat - De Kelders Gansbaai on the Sunday morning.....just an idea....also there is Shannonea 4x4 just the other side of Stanford..... :dance1:
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Hilux 1 »

Kamp en karavaanhuise redelik naby, by Uilenkraalsmond en by die Damme.
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Stubs »

also there is the Walkerbay fishing trail operated by Cape Nature, not a 4x4 route but very scenic, great to braai and fish etc...all these places are very close so the options can be various, I know of plenty of great campsites so we can always do a 4x4 route and camp somewhere else...Die Dam at the end of the Pearly beach road has a great campsite and a stunning beach......then Struisbaai has a great campsite and the local pub there Nostras does great food and has draught !!!! :taunt:
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by ThysdJ »

I like the Voorhoede idea Stu... :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Hoppy »

Not much to do at voorhoede, trail not challenging, closer to the sea will work for me
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Stubs »

fully agree by the coast is lekker, but there is not an abundance of 4x4 routes.... :boredom: but my thoughts were we do a trail but dont camp there, we coincide this with a campsite on the coast where we can fish, braai, camp etc...this there are plenty of spots.....jm2cw...
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Hilux 1 »

The Black Oyster Catcher on the Struisbaai road does BRILLIANT food too.
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by ThysdJ »

Hoppy wrote:Not much to do at voorhoede, trail not challenging, closer to the sea will work for me
No trail is challenging to you Mr Hoppy! We must accommodate the web-wheelers among us too, such as myself. :lol: :lol: :lol:
stubs wrote:but my thoughts were we do a trail but dont camp there, we coincide this with a campsite on the coast where we can fish, braai, camp etc...this there are plenty of spots.....jm2cw...
Distance to travel between campsite and trail? more-or-less? :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Stubs »

http://maps.google.co.za/maps?hl=en&tab=wl" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

but there are closer campsite, Onrus in Hermanus, Franskraal area etc, Gansbaai, I will try and find out some info on the Shannonea 4x4 trail, I posted a GTG awhile ago about this place but had no response, I will go and find the thread...
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Hilux 1 »

Well if you go Voorhoede, from die Damme, skat ek seker so uur en n half se ry? sal dalk meer winsgewend wees om in Onrus, Hermanus of selfs Sandbaai te kamp, dan skat ek seker so 30min se ry.
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Stubs »

SHANONNEA 4X4 TRAIL - Stanford

Grade: 2 to 3
Route Distance: 40 km
Terrain: Mountain
Accommodation: Large camp site with full ablutions - hot water showers and flush toilets
Description: The Shannonea 4x4 trail is a reasonable new trail, adjacent to the Salmansdam Nature Reserve in the Stanford area. A well planned trail on an active protea export farm where many of the trail tracks are used when flower harvesting takes place. Upon reaching the viewpoint everyone will have a bird’s eye-view over nine towns in the area to even seeing as far as Cape Point and Agulhas the most southern point of Africa. Spectacular views and worth a visit any time of the year.

The trail itself is not very demanding and is approximately 40km long and will take us approximately four/five hours to complete. Vehicles will not be damaged but a few interesting obstacles have been included for good measure. The first being a donga crossing, where a natural spring keeps the area wet and your driving techniques will be tested and good ground clearance is important. Remember there is nothing wrong by first walking an obstacle and checking to find the line of least resistance ensuring your safe passage through the obstacle. Numerous camber drive sections and steep ascents will follow before reaching the viewpoint. An optional section can be negotiated where only five vehicles at a time can be accommodated at the turning point at approximately 770m above sea level. This section will require vehicles that have the option of rear diff locks to reach the turn point. Good fun with the peace of mind of not damaging your vehicle.
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by GI Jane »

Salmonsdam also has a campsite, and if it is adjacent, it means that if there is a very large group to camp, we can spill over into that campsite as well.
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Hilux 1 »

does any of these still exist?
Glen Oakes 4x4 Trail Caledon
(028) 212 2050/2710

Kroonland 4x4 Route Villiersdorp
(028) 840 1979

Mount Dyer Fynbos Gansbaai
(028) 388 0384

Stetten Disa 4x4 Villiersdorp
(028) 340 4283 or 082 351 9306

Walker Bay 4x4 Resort
(021) 913 3299 or 082 728 1017
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Royco »

We did Kroonland on the 9th of August.
viewtopic.php?f=57&t=20012&start=81" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
They do have camping / bungalows at the Lapa, but I'm not sure what it's like to stay overnight there... ??
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Hilux 1 »

of subject, wie het al Porseleinberg gedoen? in Riebeeck kasteel
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Stubs »

Glenn Oakes still has camping facilities and that but the 4x4 trail has been long closed !!!
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Stef »

Maybe Sidekick can put this in the test calendar so we can try it out?
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by SideKick »

What about Groot Toren in the Mc Gregor area? Drive out rated that trail in their top 10 :twisted:

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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by SideKick »

The weekend of the 3rd Desember would be Great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Hilux 1 »

last weekend in Novenmber, Xmas functions from the 1st Dec allready :cry: :alvarin:
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Hoppy »

Hier's nou te veel moontlikhede, dit was Thys se idee, so laat hy maar een pick
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by SideKick »

Ja nee. Kom kom kom Thys. Jy is NOG NIE replace as events coordinator nie :twisted:
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by SideKick »

Stef wrote:Maybe Sidekick can put this in the test calendar so we can try it out?
First I need a date, or date range.
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by ThysdJ »

Come lets see what comes out of this. I like having lots of ideas and lively debate. But overdoing it with venues is confusing the issue a bit. So far I like the Voorhoede idea, I also like the Shanonnea idea.

Basic requirements for this weekend are:
Enough camping space to accommodate a big group, approx 12-15 vehicles.
Good ablution facilities.
A central lapa or communal braai area would be a bonus
Trees/shade
Some activities/place to keep the kids occupied.

Stuart have you been to any of these 2 places before? Can you give us feedback on the facilities? I am not too worried about the trail, as a scenic drive is just as good as a nice trail, but not everybody will be in the mood for a day of winching and building roads. You want to do that you come to the Boot Camp. :twisted: :twisted: Also we need to be fresh as daisies for the lekker kuier on Saturday evening when Santa comes to visit the "kids:... :lol: :lol:
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by cheetah »

Voorhoede, idee klink lekker :thumbup: , miskien moet ons n datum vastel dan kan almal solank reelings tref.
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by ThysdJ »

Last weekend in November or first one in December. Those are the options. Otherwise we move too close to the festive season, and people's holidays/work parties/etc etc gets in the way. Last year it was on 4/5 December. :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by truckin »

[quote="Stubs"]also there is the Walkerbay fishing trail operated by Cape Nature, not a 4x4 route but very scenic, great to braai and fish etc...all these places are very close so the options can be various, I know of plenty of great campsites so we can always do a 4x4 route and camp somewhere else...Die Dam at the end of the Pearly beach road has a great campsite and a stunning beach......then Struisbaai has a great campsite and the local pub there Nostras does great food and has draught !!!! :taunt:[/quote]

Ai soutie, i think there's something wrong with your tummy, i grew up un struisbaai, and hav been to nostra a few times in my life, and they DONT hav great food, but struis is a nice kuier place IF the wind doesnt blow u away, we can maybe go there sometime but lets go stay in the house :tongue:
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by GI Jane »

Maybe it will be important to finalise a date first and see which places can accommodate the number of people that will be attending. With it being summer some campsites may already be getting quite busy.
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by zepplin »

Time are getting few............Listen to the tannie :!: :!:
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Turbo »

Thys maybe you should put the 2 dates up for a vote. :boss:

I prefer to go to a 4x4 trail with a campsite. :thumbup:

Thats why we 4x4, to go where other people cant go with plat karre. :cooldude:

And we are a 4x4 club/forum, not a caravan, eat at the best restaurant, fishing, hiking, scenic route club. :tease:
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by GI Jane »

I agree with Turbo(Jaco). If we go camping for the weekend we do not need to go out for dinners or to pubs. Just have routes that can accommodate a range of 4x4 drivers, and possibly some activity for the rest of the family to enjoy nearby, and, possibly decide on a date before they get too booked up.
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by ThysdJ »

Turbo wrote:Thys maybe you should put the 2 dates up for a vote. :boss:

I prefer to go to a 4x4 trail with a campsite. :thumbup:

Thats why we 4x4, to go where other people cant go with plat karre. :cooldude:

And we are a 4x4 club/forum, not a caravan, eat at the best restaurant, fishing, hiking, scenic route club. :tease:
Jaco, you're preeching to ther converted dude.. :twisted: :twisted:

Agreed, we need somewhere where we can ply our 4x4 trade. and we can cook in the bush too so no pubs/restaurants and my beer is much cheaper coming from my fridge than over a counter, and my camping chair is much more comfortable than a barstool... etc etc..

You want dates?
ThysdJ wrote: Last weekend in November or first one in December. Those are the options.
focus people focus... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Turbo »

1 st weekend in December for me. :beach:
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by The Great White »

Khomeesdrif is n nuwerige kamp kort voor Riviersonderend, waar ons al bitter lekker gekamp het. (http://www.khomeesdrif.co.za" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) Die kamp plekke het geen krag nie, maar n plan kan gemaak word en die amblusie geriewe is 5 ster.
n Hele tyd terug het ons Kromrivier 4x4 of Riviersonderend 4x4 se roete probeer ry maar hy was toe gegroei met die protea bos en ons moes omdraai. Meskien die moeite werd om uit te vind of die roete oop is. Ek het al so bietjie gaan google oor die roete en gelees hy kan baie lekker wees. Dis ook net so 15 km buite Riviersonderend. Baie mooi daar en as die roete oop gekap is dink ek die kombinasie van die roete en die kamp plek sal n wenner wees.
Voorhoede se roete gaan jul verveel...maar dit is tog mooi. Ek se maar net.
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by SideKick »

Guys

I think we should decide on a date first.

Thys, can you add a poll for us on the two date options (The last weekend of November and the first weekend of Desember) so that we can decide which date will work the best. We can let the poll run for a week and then take the date from there?
Stress: :irate: The confusion created when one's mind overrides the body's desire to choke the living $H!t out of some asshole that desperately deserves it!
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by cheetah »

SideKick wrote:Guys

I think we should decide on a date first.

Thys, can you add a poll for us on the two date options (The last weekend of November and the first weekend of Desember) so that we can decide which date will work the best. We can let the poll run for a week and then take the date from there?
Good idee :thumbup: , I hope it is the last weekend of November, lets see how the poll goes. :arrow: :arrow:
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Stubs »

I am going to do a recce of the Shannonea 4x4 trail and camp on Saturday 17th September...anyone interested in joining let me know.....cheers Stubs
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by OOOOMS »

Stubs wrote:I am going to do a recce of the Shannonea 4x4 trail and camp on Saturday 17th September...anyone interested in joining let me know.....cheers Stubs
Would like to join you Stompie, but it;s a bit far for a weekend..... :thumbdown: Sorry mate :thumbup:
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Stubs »

I am still up for the Recce of Shannonea 4x4 trail this coming weekend, I am going to camp there as well on Friday and do the trail on the saturday. A couple of options for food on the Saturday night are 1. Spitbraai done by my friend the owner of Hennies pub and grill in Stanford, his spits are demon and he will come to us, all very professional so i will get prices on that, secondly is Dirk (thys partner in crime) and his wife Steph to cater for us, ie a braai, potjie etc,...I will get prices so everyone can decide, obviously if people would rather do their own thing then this is cool also.

I am starting a list now although the venue and/or date has not been finalized but time flies like my hilux and it will soon be the end of November before we know it.


Hilux4x4 Club Year End GTG 2011

Name................. Partner..............Friday............Sat..............Food(Sat)............Vehicle.

1. Stuart (Stubs) - Erika Yes Yes Yes 89 Hilux D/cab
2. Stekel (Estiaan - Alana Yes Yes Yes 09 Hilux D/cab
3.
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Turbo »

Hilux4x4 Club Year End GTG 2011

Name................. Partner..............Friday............Sat..............Food(Sat)............Vehicle.

1. Stuart (Stubs) - Erika Yes Yes Yes 89 Hilux D/cab
2. Stekel (Estiaan - Alana Yes Yes Yes 09 Hilux D/cab
3.Jaco (Turbo) - Isabel Yes Yes Yes Hilux
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
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11.
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.Only when we are no longer afraid,do we begin to live
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Rooikappie »

I vote for the last weekend in Nov. Pleaqse add my name to the poll......
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Stubs »

Hi all,

further to Shannonea 4x4...I did a scout around yesterday and I couldnt find no sign of this place, its not listed anywhere, doesnt have a website, cant find a phone number even....so i think we might have to look for another venue...any suggestions, recommendations welcome.

thanks
stubs
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Royco »

Not sure if this would help:
Shannonea 4x4 and Nature Trail. Just 15km east of Stanford. At 850m above sea level you can see the southern most tip of Africa and drive through pristine mountain fynbos. Christiaan 082-324-1133.
From the website:
http://www.stanford-accommodation.co.za ... nford.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Stubs »

nice one, will call and see whats going down !!!!! watch this space...
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Stubs »

Ok, back to the drawing board, I spoke to him and he has closed, I guessed as much.....as there is no signage on the road etc...so come on guys, if you still want to do the overberg area thats fine, let me know, I have a free weekend this weekend so can go do a recce.....otherwise we can look elsewhere...
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by ThysdJ »

Voorhoede? :thumbup:
Thys de Jager
CEO and Refreshments Manager at Team Offroad.

2010 Hilux 3.0 D4D D/C 4x4 with GOMAD "Brood" Canopy. Tripod.
1997 Jeep Wrangler TJ 4.0 Sport. The original SFA. AGA... Gooi kole
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by SideKick »

What about Groot Toren in the Mc Gregor area? Drive out rated that trail in their top 10 :twisted:

Level 2 - 3

http://www.driveout.co.za/4x4/trails/gr ... experience" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.mcgregorvillage.co.za/accomm ... toren.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Stubs »

I will check out this one today, also going to look at the Walker bay nature reserve, I have done the one from Stanford side many time, stunning scenery etc but not a long trail and you dont need a 4x4. at weekend I think I will also go and look at the second part of the Walkerbay nature reserve on the uilenkraaksmond side, we could maybe do a combo thing, say the Voorhoede on the Saturday then to gansbaai and do the short route on the sunday etc. would make a rounded weekend plus its close by etc....
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Stubs »

I am busy with the Groot toren option...
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by ThysdJ »

Hilux4x4 Club Year End GTG 2011

Name................. Partner..............Friday............Sat..............Food(Sat)............Vehicle.

1. Stuart (Stubs) - Erika Yes Yes Yes 89 Hilux D/cab
2. Stekel (Estiaan - Alana Yes Yes Yes 09 Hilux D/cab
3. Jaco (Turbo) - Isabel Yes Yes Yes Hilux
4. Thys and Missus Yes Yes Yes Hilux or Ford (depending)
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Thys de Jager
CEO and Refreshments Manager at Team Offroad.

2010 Hilux 3.0 D4D D/C 4x4 with GOMAD "Brood" Canopy. Tripod.
1997 Jeep Wrangler TJ 4.0 Sport. The original SFA. AGA... Gooi kole
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by ThysdJ »

Stuart, can we take stock of where we are with this?

Groot Toren is not returning our enquiries :oops: :oops:
Shanana is closed :evil: :evil:
Voorhoede - Stubsie to investigate :silent: :silent:

When can you give us feedback Stu? :cool:
Thys de Jager
CEO and Refreshments Manager at Team Offroad.

2010 Hilux 3.0 D4D D/C 4x4 with GOMAD "Brood" Canopy. Tripod.
1997 Jeep Wrangler TJ 4.0 Sport. The original SFA. AGA... Gooi kole
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Stubs »

Ok have just been to Voorhoede Farm, very nice indeed, lekker big campsite with central braai area, 6 toilets and 2 showers, but no electricity.Trail is moderate, havent driven it yet but it will take 15 vehicles about 4 hours to complete, I can go and drive it for free which is a pre-requirement.
Camping is R60 ppn, Trail is R300 per vehicle, 10 % discount on 10 vehicles or more, we have to be on the trail no later than 0930 hours.
There is a lekker mountain bike trail which i have ridden, thats 20 per person, also Bass and Carp fishing in 2 seperate dams which you can walk to, thats R75 pppd..
They do not cater so we would be looking at maybe Dirk and Steph to do something for us on the Saturday night...or we can all just do our own thing.
I think the trail will be good enough for all levels and as its a GTG weekend and not busting our balls trail building...and fixing broken things on our vehilces.
The last weekend in November is still open..but I need commitment from People so please :beg: get your names to the list as soon as possible. I am still going to keep other options open if they come across my table. I am going to call Groot Toren now and see if I can get some answers also from these people.
If we are at least 12 vehicles then we get the Akkerbos campsite on the farm to ourselves, its about 800 meters away from the reception. Plenty of shade with beautiful Oak trees and grass, no staked out plots so people can go where they please etc. Albert and Bronwyn are very pleasant, they can provide Braai wood and Ice etc, also the venue is only 3km from Caledon which has all the amenities you will need, Spar, Bottleshops, pharmacies etc. I will try and get to the trail this week :think: and then report a :thumbdown: or a :thumbup: accordingly. I would just like to reiterate that its only a moderate trail but the scenery is stunning and the one section takes you all the way to the top of the mountain etc.
So as they say watch this space and getting filling the gaps on the list :cooldude:
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Shimano »

Re: WC - Year End Function 2011
Hilux4x4 Club Year End GTG 2011

Name................. Partner..............Friday............Sat..............Food(Sat)............Vehicle.

1. Stuart (Stubs) - Erika Yes Yes Yes 89 Hilux D/cab
2. Stekel (Estiaan - Alana Yes Yes Yes 09 Hilux D/cab
3. Jaco (Turbo) - Isabel Yes Yes Yes Hilux
4. Thys and Missus Yes Yes Yes Hilux or Ford (depending)
5. Wynand (Shimano) Lisl Yes Yes Yes Hilux
6.
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Toyota Hilux 4.0 V6 4x4
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by GI Jane »

Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Re: WC - Year End Function 2011
Hilux4x4 Club Year End GTG 2011

Name................. Partner..............Friday............Sat..............Food(Sat)............Vehicle.

1. Stuart (Stubs) - Erika Yes Yes Yes 89 Hilux D/cab
2. Stekel (Estiaan - Alana Yes Yes Yes 09 Hilux D/cab
3. Jaco (Turbo) - Isabel Yes Yes Yes Hilux
4. Thys and Missus Yes Yes Yes Hilux or Ford (depending)
5. Wynand (Shimano) Lisl Yes Yes Yes Hilux
6. Val - maybe(depending on weekend decided on) Yes Yes Yes 98 Hilux Raider D/cab
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by cheetah »

vald wrote:Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Re: WC - Year End Function 2011
Hilux4x4 Club Year End GTG 2011

Name................. Partner..............Friday............Sat..............Food(Sat)............Vehicle.
D
1. Stuart (Stubs) - Erika Yes Yes Yes 89 Hilux D/cab
2. Stekel (Estiaan - Alana Yes Yes Yes 09 Hilux D/cab
3. Jaco (Turbo) - Isabel Yes Yes Yes Hilux
4. Thys and Missus Yes Yes Yes Hilux or Ford (depending)
5. Wynand (Shimano) Lisl Yes Yes Yes Hilux
6. Val - maybe(depending on weekend decided on) Yes Yes Yes 98 Hilux Raider D/cab
7. Anton[Cheetah]-Rina[ depending on weekend decided on] Yes Yes Yes Hilux D/cab
8.
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Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Post by Toybox »

cheetah wrote:
vald wrote:Re: WC - Year End Function 2011

Re: WC - Year End Function 2011
Hilux4x4 Club Year End GTG 2011

Name................. Partner..............Friday............Sat..............Food(Sat)............Vehicle.
D
1. Stuart (Stubs) - Erika Yes Yes Yes 89 Hilux D/cab
2. Stekel (Estiaan - Alana Yes Yes Yes 09 Hilux D/cab
3. Jaco (Turbo) - Isabel Yes Yes Yes Hilux
4. Thys and Missus Yes Yes Yes Hilux or Ford (depending)
5. Wynand (Shimano) Lisl Yes Yes Yes Hilux
6. Val - maybe(depending on weekend decided on) Yes Yes Yes 98 Hilux Raider D/cab
7. Anton[Cheetah]-Rina[ depending on weekend decided on] Yes Yes Yes Hilux D/cab
8.
9.
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14.
15.

Maybe list:
1. Jonathan (Toybox) - Jade (depending if I'm in town) Yes Yes Yes Hilex D/Cab
I'm keen gents, but I'm being farmed out all over the country for work at the moment so it's anyone guess if I'll be able to make it :evil:
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