Hilux 4x4 Forum

Good to hear. Hope you still have enough warm weather left to enjoy, but then you're going to heat it anyway.

Glad to hear Chris... and yes Andy is a super smart ou toppie with super smart ideas! That's why we like him so much on the forum!

Water level is now just above the light :) and filling fast :) :)


MUST go buy a thermometer now - track the water temp as the solar does its thing :) :) :)

So who's all invited for sundowners around the pool this evening????

Bretton, you give me way too much credit!

Mud Dog wrote:So who's all invited for sundowners around the pool this evening????

Bretton, you give me way too much credit!

Donderdag word GEBRAAI by ons huis.

ELKE Donderdag aand.


VANAAND word daar BEHOORLIK gebraai !!!!!!


VANAAND kyk ek los bo-oor daai grasperk wat Desember laas aandag gekry het ....


wonder of daai 200 stukkie rooikrans genoeg gaan wees ....

Mud Dog wrote:So who's all invited for sundowners around the pool this evening????

Bretton, you give me way too much credit!

Not around the pool Andy! In the pool!

Chris... what time should we be there?

Vroeg huis toe gekom en tools gevat en gehelp met die laaste pypwerk en bedrading.

net na 15:00 was die water vlak reg, en ek sit toe solank die pomp aan op die PV PANELE :) Totaal onafhanklik van die 220V paneel, so die res van die werk kon rustig voort gaan.

Water temperatuur was 24 grade direk uit die kraan - BAIE VERBAAS !!!! regtig geglo dit sal baie kouer wees.

Teen 17:00 het die son al laag gelê, en daai PV pompie het net aanhou loop !! Deur die solar panele :) Teen 17:00 was die water al net bo 25 grade !!



Net voor 20:00 n LEKKER dip gevat :) :)

Well I would imagine congrats would be in order Chris

Show us pic's of the finish product after all the hassle you've had I hope YOU ENJOYING the pool :!: :!:

and what a great feeling not to have to hold thumbs that it will be finish & you can have you space back & not
share it with contractors/builders

Lessons learnt -

- Glad we did go for the custom concrete pool with glass fibre lining.

- IF there are ANY ground water, keep CLOSE tabs on it, and if in doubt PUMP IT !!! Aint hind sight a nice thing ..

- the Grundfoss PV pump is working GOOD !! Yesterday the sun delivered 10 hours of pumping without one cent going to eskom.

- the solar water heating - I added extra panels to extend the usable period of the pool. Saterday morning the water was at 24 degrees, by 15:00 it was at 29 degrees !!

- I wanted to do the paving around the pool later - BAD idea !! You CANT get out and back in - you drag too much sand back into the pool .... Saturday morning I was at the hardware store just before 8, first load of sand and cement. Man I LOVE my little mixer !!

8:30 - 9:00 - ready to start - about three hours later - 18:00 -
WOW - been a while since I worked this hard But just something magic about standing back and seeing the results of your own hand work.






.

My last post was not 100% correct ...

I actually DID have a bit of help. -
Maritz, our godson, truly brings a smile to your face
.

Initially I opted for double the number of solar panels - with the thought that I could then save electricity by running the pump less.


Then I bought the PV pump ....


So now we have a pump that runs about 10 hours a day, AND double the number of solar panels (black pipes) to heat the pool water.



Thursday - 15:00 to 17:00 - filled the pool with 24 degree water, heated to 26 degrees in that short time (think this was to top layer only)

Friday - some pipe work was done, pump only ran in the afternoon, taking the water back to 26 degrees

Saturday - nice clear sunny day. pump ran from 8:30 to 18:00, takning the water from 24 degrees to 29 degrees !!

Sunday - cool, cloudy day, pump only started around 10:00, with full cloud cover. Sun partially broke through around 12:00. Heated the water from 26 to 28 degrees.


Still waiting for the thermal pool cover, should get it by Wednesday.

I run my pool for 4-5 hours a day.
I cannot afford to run it any longer than that, the electrical units just disappear way too fast.

Thanks for the pics Chris it looks really good ,see you have been a busy bee casting concrete making it look even better
I hope that section of drain cover is not covered with concrete or am I SEEING things :wink2: :wink2:

4x4BEES wrote:I run my pool for 4-5 hours a day.
I cannot afford to run it any longer than that, the electrical units just disappear way too fast.

prezactly !!


SO glad I went for the PV pump :)


Those solar tubes need run-time !! And eskdom is net te verdomp duur ....

ROOFER wrote:Thanks for the pics Chris it looks really good ,see you have been a busy bee casting concrete making it look even better
I hope that section of drain cover is not covered with concrete or am I SEEING things :wink2: :wink2:

darem nie :)


Die slab is net mooi die regte hoogte, so daai deel sal n los stuk paver slab kry

ChrisF wrote:Initially I opted for double the number of solar panels - with the thought that I could then save electricity by running the pump less.


Then I bought the PV pump ....


So now we have a pump that runs about 10 hours a day, AND double the number of solar panels (black pipes) to heat the pool water.



Thursday - 15:00 to 17:00 - filled the pool with 24 degree water, heated to 26 degrees in that short time (think this was to top layer only)

Friday - some pipe work was done, pump only ran in the afternoon, taking the water back to 26 degrees

Saturday - nice clear sunny day. pump ran from 8:30 to 18:00, takning the water from 24 degrees to 29 degrees !!

Sunday - cool, cloudy day, pump only started around 10:00, with full cloud cover. Sun partially broke through around 12:00. Heated the water from 26 to 28 degrees.


Still waiting for the thermal pool cover, should get it by Wednesday.

Het jy dit al gekry??
Kan jy dalk my die kontak besonderhede gee vir dit asb.
Ek wil ook so iets laat opsit by my.

Hi Kevin.

JIP :)

It was part of the original pool tender. Not sure where Aubrey sourced it from.


I will give feedback after the weekend.


Without the pool cover the pool was loosing 3 to 4 degrees over night.

Will monitor it with the pool cover.

Chris jy sal nou moet die TV dophou elke aand en jou geyser en swembadpomp afsit soos versoek deur esdom

Toppie4x4 wrote:Chris jy sal nou moet die TV dophou elke aand en jou geyser en swembadpomp afsit soos versoek deur esdom

eksdom se mammie ....

Ek het n PV POMP !!

10 uur per dag, en eksdom kry nie n sent nie



Maak die naweek n paar kosmetics klaar. Dan sal ek die finale stel fotos laai.

From the top down ....

4x100W, 36V solar panels in series, and 6 off solar panels -

The pump and controls were placed between the garage and the tool shed. I added a roof over this area.

Twin weather proof plug box supplies power to the standard pool DB board. From here the 220V for the pump is sent back up to a change over switch.

The 156V of the PV installation goes to an isolator, then the change over switch.

The pump is primarly run from the PV, but if I wanted to back wash after dark it is easy to run the pump off 220V.

The pool is now done, with the paving slabs around it. Today I also added a bamboo shield between the pool and washing line area.

All that remains is to cart in a few cubes of top soil to get the slope of the ground right ....

Looking very good Chris.

Awesome

Getting there and looking good so far!!

A few big pots with some palms will help finish it off.

Completed yesterday afternoon .... 5:00 the rain wakes me today :)

Nice three day storm with lighting forecast ....



Gives me time to sort out my garage for a change. AND then to bring in some topsoil in the rain :) :)


just very THANKFUL we could finish off the project without any rain delays !!

9:00 today eksdom decided we dont need power on a Saturday morning ..... at least my PV driven pool pump did not miss a beat :) :)

already been running for more than 5 hours today - not a cent to eksdom :)


So WHAT is this "PV-pump" ?



Last year I asked a few pool companies, and a few pool installers about a PV-pump for my pool. Most just glazed over and had no idea what I talking about. Others were quick to reply: "It's too expensive, we dont sell it."

I backed off and let it be for a few weeks .... then eksdom decided it was time for some more bonus motivation, ie load shedding ...


I spent more than a bit of time to get hold of the following information:

Pool pump options – January 2015

1) Standard 220V electrical pumps
Pumps are selected to provide a flow rate of least two times the total pool volume per day. Solar solutions must match this !

The pump size and run time is the combined result of the pool size and the piping resistance.

IF you intend using a salt chlorinator you MUST have a run time of more than 6 hours per day for the chlorinator to do its work. Reduce this run time and you are back at spiking with chemicals to keep the numbers right.



2) Lorentz solar pump(s) (German) - R25 000 to R 61 000 , contact KG Electric for the distributor in your area
Various different sizes (you have to select the correct size for your pool) !!
Components:
- PV panels
- Control Panel VERY big control unit
- Motor & Pump unit


3) Bundu Power solar pump(s) – R 16 000 for the smaller unit
Two different sizes
Components:
- PV panels
- Control Panel
- Motor & Pump unit
NO STOCK - repeat emails were answered with the same no-stock reply .....


4) Grundfos PoolFlex solar pump (Denmark) – R 18 000 for the complete system with 4 PV panels. (apparently this price has gone up since I bought ....)

I bought from Maskam. The old GW Store now trades under a new name and also stock this pump

Grundfos is very well known in industry for top quality products, with a very wide range of pumping products for industry. One of the select companies whose products are approved in Fire fighting installations.

With their vast depth of knowledge of pumping solutions they approached the solar pool pump solution differently.

ONE single pump option, with a 1,1kW 220V electric pump. This pump gets fitted with a control box that is physically part of the pump. This box can take input from PV panels ranging from 300W to 900W. Thus buy one pump and alter the number of solar panels to suit your pumping requirements.

Worth noting that the solar side is designed to work with an input voltage between 110V to 415V, thus 36,8V PV panels are used and arranged in series to ensure the correct voltage.

There is one thing they dont tell you when you buy the Grundfoss pump - it can handle 220V OR pv, it has ONE input !!

Once we got the correct info directly from Grundfoss we opted for this :
NICE to be able to choose between eksdom or PV power -

this manual change over switch will put you back another 1k ....

Pay back period

THIS is certainly thee decider.

It is also not an easy calculation, at least not if you want to account for all the variables.

The basis of a pool pump size and running time starts with the industry norm that the total volume of water should be recirculated at least twice per day. The first knee jerk reaction is to use a larger pump to reduce the run-time, thereby saving a bit of electricity.

However, this kick starts a cycle of troubles. The salt chlorinator is NOT designed to work for short periods. Instead it works best with about 6 to 8 hours of run time per day. Reduce the run time and you need to spike the pool with chemicals ….

Thus the break even calculations will be done based upon a correct pump size and 8 hours run time.


Example 1 – Small 12m3 pool, with heating tubes on the roof.
220V – 450W pump runs for 8 hours per day equates to 3,5kW.h used per day. Working with an electrical cost of R1,75 per kW.h the electrical cost is R 189 per month, or R 2 300 per year.

The Grundfos system for this pool costs R 17 000. This would typically mean a 7,4 year payback period.

HOEWEVER, if you did this when installing a pool the “extra costs” are roughly R 15 000, or a payback period of 6,5 years. Now allow for the increase in costs of electricity and the payback period probably about 4 years. :)


Example 2 – Medium sized 50m3 pool, with heating tubes on the roof.
220V – 1100W pump runs for 8 hours per day equates to 8,8kW.h used per day. Working with an electrical cost of R1,75 per kW.h the electrical cost is R 462 per month, or R 5 621 per year !

Suddenly the payback period is just over 3 years. Or just more than 2 years when you allow for escalation in electrical tariffs !!

These systems are an absolute no-brainer for those with larger pools !!!!



NOTE - these calcs were done in January 2015. With eksdom requesting a 22% increase from NERSA the break even point is now MUCH quicker !!

I have various pdf's of the Grundfoss and Lorentz pumps, as well as of standard 220V pumps.

Unfortunately the files are too large and I cant attach it here.

Should you be interested in going PV, send me your email address and I will gladly forward the details.

Baie dankie vir die inligting.

Stuur dit asb vir my op kevinrogers44@gmail .com

watching paint dry might be "tiring" .....

have you ever watched grass growing ....

Pool heating - BEST IDEA EVER !!!!!!!!!!!! :) :) :)


April and the water temp hovers between 25 and 29 degrees. :)

With nice sunny days predicted the water temp should again spike over 30 degrees.



spoke to a friend yesterday - their pool does not have any form of heating - nope, water is way too cold so they cant swim until summer time.



Cost ??

The panels are less than R 1 000 each, and depending on your pool size you may need from 3 to 6 panels (obvious the large pools require more panels). For the rest 2xR100 valves and a few meters of 50mm PVC pipe .....


Some sort of pool cover DOES help to keep the heat in, and it DOES help to reduce water evaporation. You could pay a few thousand rand for a "proper" thermal pool cover, or go buy the bubble wrap that your hardware shop sells for use in roof-structures.

Baie netjies

At the time that I wanted to do a pool heating 'installation' I had a 50 metre roll of 30mm black polythene pipe - I just rolled it into a flat coil with wire to support it, popped it up on the garage roof, connected it to the return pipe after the filter with a gate valve that forced the water up through the pipe on the roof when required. Still works like a bomb after 20 yrs.

One thing you will find with a glass fibre shell is that the heat retension is pretty good.

kids and pool .... DO get a water proof camera !! .... or use the wifes one ...
3 and a half years old .... FEARLESS !!!

He started attending swimming classes before he was 2 years old - paying off now !!!



FORGET about practicing in the pool .... just try to keep up with him for a few minutes

@Chris

Thanx very much for the write up and sharing
we are looking a doing a pool this year

Already said, solar powered pump, and solar heating and of course salt

You look at the quotes and you stomach churnes ....


You look at that photo of Maritz having a BLAST and the costs are long forgotten !! :)



TIP - IF you are getting a concrete bath with a glass fibre lining ... allow best part of THREE MONTHS for the build .... and then the work starts to save whats left of your garden. I am GLAD we did it !! But it aint no two week glass fibre job ...

Been monitoring the pool temp to see what the pool heating actually does ....

remember this is an OUTSIDE pool, with a plastic bubble thermal blanket.

Mathematically I should have installed no less than 3 panels, with 4 being the recommended number. In the end we settled on SIX of the thin black pipe solar panels, hoping to get a few swimming days a year ....


At some point the pool installer made the following comment (or least this is what I heard): "With a correctly sized system we typically get the water temperature 5 to 6 degrees higher than ambient"


Here is what we have found :

Yesterday it RAINED in the Western Cape. Today the ambient temperature is 18 degrees, and by this afternoon the water temperature is 22 degrees.

With normally sunny days, even with slight cloud cover, the water temperature is about 5 to 6 degrees above the ambient temperature - measured over more than a month.

With the rain the temperature drops, and with the next cool partly cloudy day the temperature immediately shoots up to 4 degrees above ambient temperature.

The difference between 4 to 6 degrees above ambient seems to be linked to the amount cloud cover.

Thus even after last weeks rain, as soon as the sun came out the water temp was back up to 24 degrees :) :)



My one fear was that this may lead to severe water evaporation ..... using the pool cover all the time we have virtually no measurable water evaporation. I have had to top up the water twice - both after backwashing the pool.



With my limited exposure to the pool heating I CAN recommend it :) :) :) And using 1 or 2 panels more than recommended REALLY helps the water temp to recover quicker after the rain.

PS - I did install a shut off valve to limit the water flow through these panels in peak summer .... DONT want 6 degrees more than peak summer temp !!!!!!! OUCH !!!!!!!!!!!! hehehehe ....

Lekker!

Mud Dog wrote:Lekker!

With two proper cold fronts in the last 10 days winter is HERE.

Maar dit IS mos die Kaap ... day temperatures are set to steadily go up, reaching 22 to 23 degrees by Sunday .... that would mean 27 to 28 degree water temp is on the cards ....


Hier kom n lekker Moedersdag braai EN n stukkie swem ..

'N swem stukkie? .... Hmmmm .... klink interesant!

mens kan maar hoop .....

Since my last post winter set in. Now those that know the Cape KNOWS this means long days of thick cloud cover and rain and rain and rain and then just as you thought it was over it would rain some more ....

Have had to back-wash the pool 4 times already, and the water level is high enough now for a 5th backwash.


From mid May the rain COOLED the pool !! Scary just how quickly the water would drop down to 10 or 11 degrees ....


Eleven weeks later and the sun have been out for the last day and a half - water up to 20 degrees !!

feedback time -

November I got caught off guard by a few early hot days .... by day three the pool temp was 36 degrees !!

Granted I DID over size the heating panels, as I want more use of the pool in autumn and spring.


So now to start manipulating the bypass valves to get a happy medium .... cant totally close off the tap to the heating panels, as I dont want to damage the panels by overheating it .... And so I found what I thought was a happy medium ..... then the chemical balance in the water started messing about ....

Turns out the "standard pipe layout" does not cater for my non standard installation. The natural flow of the pipes is upward to the heating panels, thus the chlorine gas from the chlorinator finds its way through the slightly opened valve, now the gas collects in the heating panels, and pool does not get the right dosage ....

been faffing with this for a while trying different settings.

Finally ordered valves and fittings to redo this section of the pool piping, should get the parts later this week - the idea is to create a sort of "water trap", to prevent the chlorine gas at low flow to go up to the heating panels.


to add insult to injury I now see a few spots of "green" on the pool floor. Tested the chlorine level and it is rock bottom again. Swept the green off, and put the chlorinator to full boost and set the valves to ensure the gas is pumped back to the pool ..... hoping this solves it !!


hopefully the pool gurus can give some advise

feedback should also include -

thanks to exercising in the pool, and trying to keep up with a 4,5 year old todler, I have lost 5 kg in the last year.


NICE to be back into double digits after more than 10 or 15 years.

Good on the weight loss!

Your 'air pocket' problem is a little confusing - hot water rises and so the feed to the panels should be at the bottom and the return to the pool should be from the top, thus any air / gas should be carried away through the return unless the flow is not strong enough. You could install a bleeder valve that only allows the air to escape but stops the water from escaping (if such a thing is still available). Otherwise if your planned mod doesn't do the trick, you will just have to 'flush' it with a full flow every couple of days.

Andy been running "all the water" through the heating panels for the last few days. Under full flow the water moves the gas along, and all works perfect.


The problem starts when I throttle the flow to the top on hot days. The gas accumulates at the top and forms an air pocket. With the bypass valve open there just is not enough flow to the top to flush out the gas.



been doing some research - seems most of the suppliers recommend that the chlorinator be fitted AFTER the heating coils - not for the gas accumulation, but apparently all the heat is not ideal for the chemicals ....

I did get the chlorinator suppliers details, and will be sending an email with photos. Would love to hear their feedback, and recommendations - they were not involved in the installation and can speak openly.


NOTE - most installations only run the pool pump with the chlorinator, and change the run times as needed for the heating. Thus my issues are rather unique - though one could say this may be common place as more people go for solar driven pumps .... Going to try to find real world practical solution.


PS - few days of boosting the chlorinator the pool is CLEAN :)

Also immediately thought about placing the heating panels before the chlorinator - that will solve all your issues but I just don't know how effective the chlorination will be with heated water. Remember the returning heated water is quite a bit higher than ambient pool water temp.

Mud Dog wrote:Also immediately thought about placing the heating panels before the chlorinator - that will solve all your issues but I just don't know how effective the chlorination will be with heated water. Remember the returning heated water is quite a bit higher than ambient pool water temp.

Andy the irony is that in my day job we are involved with heat pumps for olympic size pools

Here the chemicals (done by other specialists) are fed into the pipes leaving the plant room, ie after the filters and pool heating.

Hi ChrisF, where did jou buy the pool pump cover? I need to buy one for my pool pump, at the moment it is open and the sun is hammering the pipes.

Ben part of the initial installation. Not sure where they sourced their items .... I tried to get some contact details for a few items, but in the end never got any details of his suppliers.


Take the pic to PoolDoctor in Durban road. SURE they will be able to get it for you, or point you in the right direction.



I do like that cover. Quick lid for backwashing etc. And the full lid lifts off the base if you need to work on any of the components.

Thanks Chris will do.

Mud Dog wrote:Also immediately thought about placing the heating panels before the chlorinator - that will solve all your issues but I just don't know how effective the chlorination will be with heated water. Remember the returning heated water is quite a bit higher than ambient pool water temp.

With the sun showing its face again it was time to address this outstanding item.

Before : This system has two issues :
Being a pv driven system the pump circulates water as long as the sun shines - resulting in serious over-heating in summer. Throttling the bypass and flow-through valve it is possible to regulate the amount of heating. BUT, the gas from the chlorinator goes straight "up" the pipe to the heating panels. And with the reduced flow to the top there simply is not enough flow to push the gas down again ....

PS - I totally over-sized the heating system, so even in late July the water is reaching 20 degrees after two days of sun shine.

In cloudy weather the flow is just strong enough for the chlorinator to detect flow and to work. Once again gas goes to the top, but with insufficient flow the gas gets trapped at the top.

In both cases it is a 10 second exercise to pump down the gas using the 220V setting of the pump. However, I do prefer a system that is fully automatic.

Mr Google says that it is better to have the chlorinator AFTER the heating panels ... and this would also solve my issues .... and thus the system was altered to :
Note the extra kink to make sure no gas flows back up into the heating panels.

Another solution (although perhaps more complicated) would have been to fit a header tank at the highest point after the heating panels so that the gasses can dissipate and the return flow to the pool would be simply gravitational through a thicker diameter pipe. Not the most practical idea but it would have worked.

And is it right now Chris?


Rich

after day one it does appear to sorted - TOUCH WOOD.

absolutely NO air/gas trapped in the heating pipes. (doing the 220V boost did not show the typical air bubbles being pumped out)


will keep an eye on it and provide more feedback

Lyk goed!!!

Man is sommer lus vir n vuurtjie opsteek en bietjie kuier langs hom.

Kom nou somer!!!!!!!

Water was gister middag 25 grade

okay, okay ... only the top layer ....

Wetsuit aan, LEKKER geswem !! Toe ek daai water ordentlik gemeng het was die finale temperatuur 19,8 grade. steeds GOED vir laat winter.

en die son skyn vandag, so dit behoort nog warmer te wees vanmiddag

Selfs na die laaste reen is die water bo 28 grade.

LEKKER

Great to see you enjoying the pool Chris please keep an eye on those black little pipes as they often develop a leak
and course trouble on the metal roofs and You only notice it when you need to replace roof sheets

Thanks Charl. Guess would also notice an increase in water consumption (?)


I do believe these only have a limited lifespan of a few years ... but at about R750 per panel it is cheap enough to replace.