Adjustable torque rod

Post by **Mud Dog** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:14 am

The adjustable torque rod idea has been on my mind for a long time now and I know exactly how I want to have it made up and thought To share the idea since this has been a topic of some discussion lately.

I'll need an engineering works to do it properly. The idea is to cut the rod in half and thread both cut ends almost full length of each end, one left and one right hand thread. Then to have a 200mm pipe sleeve that's internally threaded, left from one side and right from the other. The wall thickness should be at least 3mm for strength. This put together will work like a turnbuckle, lengthening or shortening by tuning the pipe sleeve. One of the ends of the sleeve should be split back by about 60mm on one side only with a lug on each side of the split. The lugs must be drilled out to take a bolt through them both with a nut welded to the one ... this will act as a non-removable clamp so that it cannot turn when clamped and so not go out of adjustment, while the unclamped end will be able to turn with the flexing of the axle, relieving stress off the mounts. This 'clamp' should be on the right hand thread and mounted on the chassis end, out of sight. The diff end should have the free left hand thread so that the twisting of the rod as that side axle drops, turns the rod to lengthen rather than shorten, and perhaps lessen the possibility of bump-steer, even though it's probably negligable.

Simple enough, and should work well.

Post by **CasKru** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:14 am

Sounds good. have a look at this pick. Simular effect just much simpler. If you make the threaded side longer, you don't need a lock nut. To be able to adjust you'll have to disconnect one side, adjust and connect again but you will still have the advantage of the twist action and less that can go wrong... m2cw

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:43 am

I'm organising such a mod nou nou

Will a stnd Hilux torque bar thread up nicely as is or do you think it will need some heat treatment gals

(too long since I studied some Metalurgy)

What sort of additional length adjustment are we looking at:

+ and - 20mm range be OK

Post by **CasKru** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:26 am

Dadz Toy BFI wrote:I'm organising such a mod nou nou

Will a stnd Hilux torque bar thread up nicely as is or do you think it will need some heat treatment gals

(too long since I studied some Metalurgy)

What sort of additional length adjustment are we looking at:

+ and - 20mm range be OK

Q1.... don't know
Q2.... 20mm should do but I would rather (if possible) go for 30 to 50mm

Post by **Mud Dog** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:16 am

I assume that the OME rod is hardened steel, but an engineering works can cut a thread on a lathe easily enough. My proposed idea will easily give 100mm adjustment without getting dangerously low on overlap. At 100mm extension there will still be 50mm of threaded section in the tube on both ends.

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:37 pm

Mud Dog wrote:I assume that the OME rod is hardened steel, but an engineering works can cut a thread on a lathe easily enough. My proposed idea will easily give 100mm adjustment without getting dangerously low on overlap. At 100mm extension there will still be 50mm of threaded section in the tube on both ends.

I picked up a spare SFA Torque Rod this morning Andy

I'm wondering if I should rather go with Cass' simpler solution as I'm a bit puzzled by the opposing threads concept - are you sure that'll be lekker

Pro's and Con's Manne

All constructive comments welcomed

Rich

Post by **Mud Dog** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:17 pm

Cassie's one has two disadvantages over mine that I picked up on straight away.

1. You have to disconnect at least one end to adjust ... cannot be adjusted in place.

2. The threaded section is rather short, leaving not much adjustable length. Bear in mind that you still want a decent length of thread engaged so that it does'nt flex and become weaker over time to the point that it tears out of the thread.

I think the max I would adjust Cassie's is 20 mm which would only leave about 40mm of thread engaged. My idea will allow as much as 100mm adjustment with still 50mm thread engaged on each side, and adjustment is easy ... loosen the clamp and turn like a turn buckle to desired length and re-tighten the clamp.

Remember I said had thought about this for quite some time, and the idea of building it like Cassie's crossed my mind, but with a longer threaded section, and that would be OK I think, but I rejected it because it would be tedious and awkward to adjust the castor while the vehicle stands on a test bed at an alignment centre.

Knock holes in my theory if you can .... I'm open to criticism.

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:07 pm

Mud Dog wrote:Cassie's one has two disadvantages over mine that I picked up on straight away.

1. You have to disconnect at least one end to adjust ... cannot be adjusted in place.

2. The threaded section is rather short, leaving not much adjustable length. Bear in mind that you still want a decent length of thread engaged so that it does'nt flex and become weaker over time to the point that it tears out of the thread.

I think the max I would adjust Cassie's is 20 mm which would only leave about 40mm of thread engaged. My idea will allow as much as 100mm adjustment with still 50mm thread engaged on each side, and adjustment is easy ... loosen the clamp and turn like a turn buckle to desired length and re-tighten the clamp.

Remember I said had thought about this for quite some time, and the idea of building it like Cassie's crossed my mind, but with a longer threaded section, and that would be OK I think, but I rejected it because it would be tedious and awkward to adjust the castor while the vehicle stands on a test bed at an alignment centre.

Knock holes in my theory if you can .... I'm open to criticism.

Yeah, I chewed over the two whilst I watched Hull City play Chelsea today in the 1st game of the Premier League; didn't have to concentrate too hard a win for Chelsea was the probable :roll:

I basically came up with the same conclusions that you've outlined

I think the ability to adjust on the vehicle is quite a critical factor me thinks :Geek:

I'm going to the Engineering Shop on Monday so I'll have to have made my mind up by then mos

So question is:

A Fast Reptile or Dirty K9 Mod

Anymore for anymore Manne :ugeek:

Rich

legend35 · Post by **legend35** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:28 pm

I would say,if the rod is maybe 30mm thick,then you only need 30mm thread inside.but a quick ajustment like Andy's idea would get my vote.

legend35 · Post by **legend35** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:30 pm

One question.How would you know if it is not stressed without disconnecting the one side?

Andries · Post by **Andries** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:09 pm

Gaan na bearing man en vra vir rod ends en maak die torque rod daarmee.

legend35 · Post by **legend35** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:59 pm

You still wont be able to know if its to long or to short.

Post by **Mud Dog** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:39 am

A Fast Reptile or Dirty K9 Mod

legend35 wrote:One question.How would you know if it is not stressed without disconnecting the one side?

You still wont be able to know if its to long or to short.

When you fit it, you would have to adjust the length with the diff in the 'relaxed' position to get it in easy. Then when you go to check how far out of spec the castor is (it may be right in that position), you can see how many turns (how much longer or shorter) you have to make it. That will give you an idea how much you're stressing it.

Rich, how much did you pay for the standard rod? New? Used?

BenHur · Post by **BenHur** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:45 am

Dadz Toy BFI wrote:A Fast Reptile or Dirty K9 Mod

Mud Dog wrote:Knock holes in my theory if you can .... I'm open to criticism.

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:48 am

Mud Dog wrote: Rich, how much did you pay for the standard rod? New? Used?

Used - Off a scrap SFA

12 Soldiers equivalent

Post by **LouisZ** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:11 am

I can get them for about R110. That is for a good sexond hand one, just clean it and respray it.

Post by **CasKru** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:31 am

Andries wrote:Gaan na bearing man en vra vir rod ends en maak die torque rod daarmee.

Aha... this was the other piece of equipment I wanted to mention but did not know the name

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:20 am

Andries wrote:Gaan na bearing man en vra vir rod ends en maak die torque rod daarmee.

"go to bearing man and your wife and make the torque rod pretty"

:? :?

Qu.1

If the Dirty Dog style adjusting sleeve is rear-most then it won't bind on full articulation no/yes/maybe/eh

ThysdJ · Post by **ThysdJ** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:35 am

Why not just manufacture a "quick release" system so that you can remove the TR when doing trails and requiring the "extreme" articulation, and put it back when driving on road?

Post by **CasKru** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:59 am

Kaspaas wrote:Why not just manufacture a "quick release" system so that you can remove the TR when doing trails and requiring the "extreme" articulation, and put it back when driving on road?

Dink nie dit is 'n goeie idee nie. Kan dalk net te veel strain op jou suspensie sit..... :shifty:

ThysdJ · Post by **ThysdJ** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:10 am

Cassie, I make the suggestion in the light of what Jonathan (Toybox) said in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7884

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:52 am

Kaspaas wrote:Why not just manufacture a "quick release" system so that you can remove the TR when doing trails and requiring the "extreme" articulation, and put it back when driving on road?

What about bia steep descents where you're on the "breaks" big time mos

Hoppy · Post by **Hoppy** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:02 am

As jy die "torque rod" afhaal gaan jy die vere "opwen", dan hou hulle nie lank nie.

Op suspensies met baie "travel" skuif ek die voorste hegpunt vorentoe tot langsaan die voorpunt van die bladveer.

As jy dan een aan die anderkant ook opsit dan haal jy die "bumpsteer" ook uit.

Op enige van die "mods" is dit belangrik dat die stuur- en torque rod teen presies dieselfde hoek le.

ThysdJ · Post by **ThysdJ** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:12 am

Thanks Allan...

Scrap the idea of the removable TR...

Post by **Mud Dog** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:58 pm

Well come on then Richard, show the peekchaz of that new adjustable torque rod that you showed me. 8 )

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:27 pm

Mud Dog wrote:Well come on then Richard, show the peekchaz of that new adjustable torque rod that you showed me. 8 )

Peekchaz

New adjustable torque rod

Ek nie verstaan :? :?

Oooh, hold on..........

wait a minute........... :shifty:

you wouldn't be refering to:

the all new............

all singing...............

all dancing.............

Dirt Dog T Rod 2000 :Geek:

would you

See Peekchaz

Post by **Mud Dog** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:29 pm

Great! Now the million dollar question .... no, not the cost (BTW Rich told me it set him back a whopping R120!

) ... the handling! Have you noticed a better steering dynamic? We know you have'nt had a chance to put it to an articulation test yet ..... we'll wait for after the weekend for that. With a little more rake in your castor the steering should be less prone to dive on sharp corners and more readily keep a straight line.

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:49 pm

Mud Dog wrote:Great! Now the million dollar question .... no, not the cost (BTW Rich told me it set him back a whopping R120! ) ... the handling! Have you noticed a better steering dynamic? We know you have'nt had a chance to put it to an articulation test yet ..... we'll wait for after the weekend for that. With a little more rake in your castor the steering should be less prone to dive on sharp corners and more readily keep a straight line.

You know it may sound strange but:

it not only looks awesome but it just feels right nou

It feels really positive on the road, a whole different dynamic mos 8 )

I'm gonna see my Pal just nou for a wheel alignment as it's a "country mile" out nou :roll:

(the steering wheel points to 9 o clock to keep the vehicle straight)

We built the adjustable torque rod today and straightened/strengthened the saddles as per Oom Louis "Saddle Correction Thread", thanks Louis; your instructions were 100%, it was a "piece of cake"

Incredibly Dadz was sagging by 65mm on the righjt hand side, the old fixed torque rod was 7mm too short.

Big thanks to Andy (Mud Dog) for the Design Brief on the Adjustable Torque Rod (hence it's dedicated naam) and HUGE thanks to Jacques Fouches, Cape Town's Finest Hilux Mechanic (and "George"'s Father In Law) from Jacques Workshop Parow jacquesworkshop@telkomsa.net for making it happen

The Adjustable Torque Rod will be a standard fitment with all Mikem Suspension Lifts in Cape Town as will the Saddle Correction Therapy

Interestingly the torque rod has a -50mm/+65mm adjustment range compared to the standard fixed torque rod. This will accomodate both :
1. the forward axle move for 33" upwards tyres
2. 50mm to 120mm raised suspension.

I shall be be happy to post peekchaz (once I can get back on my PC) I'm using my Vrou's laptop with Sissie 3G and "boiling man eggs" at the mo :roll:

R

Post by **Mud Dog** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:04 am

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:56 pm

Got a wheel alignment booked for this afternoon, just gotta persuade them not to fiddle with it nou :roll:

Post by **CasKru** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:48 pm

Dadz Toy BFI wrote:Got a wheel alignment booked for this afternoon, just gotta persuade them not to fiddle with it nou :roll:

So... how much you charge for one of dem adjustable torque rods

ThysdJ · Post by **ThysdJ** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:54 pm

Cassie.. kyk eers hoe lank hou hy...

Post by **CasKru** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:21 pm

Kaspaas wrote:Cassie.. kyk eers hoe lank hou hy...

ook weer waar

:shifty:

Post by **Mud Dog** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:00 am

No, there should be no problem with strength. Rich used an adjustable tie rod end from one of the older and sturdier Merc's. If it ever fails, it will be the welds. The stresses are by far more linear than transverse, so this should be more than adequate. ....... Might even hold back a battleship.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:24 pm

Excuse my lack of knowledge on this, what is the function of this part ( torque rod )

ThysdJ · Post by **ThysdJ** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:26 pm

Oh it is a very important piece of kit.. Without it your hilux will be all torque and no play..

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:32 pm

Kaspaas wrote:Oh it is a very important piece of kit.. Without it your hilux will be all torque and no play..

Ja slimjan maar wat doen die stukkie kit nou eintlik

ThysdJ · Post by **ThysdJ** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:34 pm

hy keer dat daai vaste vooras nie twist as jy torque op hom sit in 4x4 nie, en hy hou die as stabiel as jy vinnig moet briek..

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:43 pm

Dankie, en het hy ook tedoen met die wat die bakkie na links terk as jy skierlik rem

ThysdJ · Post by **ThysdJ** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:47 pm

Spartan wrote:Dankie, en het hy ook tedoen met die wat die bakkie na links terk as jy skierlik rem

Hy kan heel moontlik die vabond wees, as sy rubber bushes uitgewerk is of as hy nie die regte lengte is nie omdat jy suspension lifts en stuff gedoen het.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:58 pm

Kaspaas wrote:Hy kan heel moontlik die vabond wees

Ja veral op hoe spoed (120 +) as jy moet rem dan trek die bakkie erg links, dit maak sin as die rubbers klaar is. Dankie.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:00 pm

Kaspaas wrote:hy keer dat daai vaste vooras nie twist as jy torque op hom sit

Dis hoekom die ouens wat drags ry die agter as strap maar dan draai hulle die side shafts af

Jaco Versfeld · Post by **Jaco Versfeld** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:34 pm

Why would one want to make it adjustable?

Curious and learning
Jaco

Post by **CasKru** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:52 pm

Jaco Versfeld wrote:Why would one want to make it adjustable?

Curious and learning
Jaco

Adjustable for if you do a suspension lift. But I think more important is that it would be better if it could swivel which will not hinder articulation

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:57 pm

How could you make it swivel though without weakening it

The Dirt Dog 2000 is made from a Merc Tie Rod, the swiveling arms wear out but the bodies are actually more substantial than the OEM Toy Torque Rod

Does it really significantly hinder the articulation, the rubber inner actually rotates when put under serious leverage :Geek:

Post by **Mud Dog** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:15 pm

I think the rubbers will take up a lot of the axle articulation, but where there is a suspension mod like OME / Mikem etc. and the articulation is improved, then perhaps the poor old torque rod and it's mounts comes under more strain than what it was intended or designed for, particularly if the length is also incorrect and adding to the stresses.

Jaco, if this rod is missing on an SFA, or if as Thuys says the rubbers are worn, and you brake hard, the axle wraps (Twists a little on the springs). What then happens is that the distance between the draglink end of the pitman arm and the "J" end of the steering arm changes. The effect is the same as if you had turned the steering wheel slightly. Additionally, if it twists, the castor is also altered and the rake becomes shallower, makeing the steering dfynamic less positive and more prone to 'dive'.

All in all a pretty important piece of 'kit' as you called it.

On crossover steering the pitman arm tracks from side to side and not push-pull from front to back as with the standard SFA. In this case you don't have the problem outlined above.

Capiche?

Post by **Mud Dog** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:20 pm

P.S. Turning nto the left is exactly what it would do if tyhere was a problem. The top of the axle would wrap forwards resulting in the steering drag link pushing on the 'J' arm which is what your steering box does when you turn left.

Post by **CasKru** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:34 pm

Dadz Toy BFI wrote:How could you make it swivel though without weakening it

The Dirt Dog 2000 is made from a Merc Tie Rod, the swiveling arms wear out but the bodies are actually more substantial than the OEM Toy Torque Rod

Does it really significantly hinder the articulation, the rubber inner actually rotates when put under serious leverage :Geek:

That is why I was thinking along the lines of the picture I posted. In this one, you will have to first adjust the rod length before you could fit it. After this, if you do not fasten the locknut, it will be able to swivel

In the image the threaded bit might be a bit short. If one could double that I can't see a problem. You might need to develop some sort of boot which you can fit over the threaded part if you want to maybe lubricate with grease.

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:19 pm

So if I took one of the clamps off mine it wouls swivel and thus articulate better

Post by **Mud Dog** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:39 pm

Dadz Toy BFI wrote:So if I took one of the clamps off mine it wouls swivel and thus articulate better

This is what I said in the original outline ... only one side to be clamped, the other free to rotate. Nie lekker gelees nie, nê Rich!

You might need to develop some sort of boot which you can fit over the threaded part if you want to maybe lubricate with grease.

Perhaps not a bad idea, Cas. One could use a piece of bicycle tube for that ... just put it on with hose clamps, and it should stretch over the knuckle so no need to disassemble to get the hose on.

Post by **CasKru** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:44 pm

Mud Dog wrote:
Dadz Toy BFI wrote:So if I took one of the clamps off mine it wouls swivel and thus articulate better
This is what I said in the original outline ... only one side to be clamped, the other free to rotate. Nie lekker gelees nie, nê Rich!

You might need to develop some sort of boot which you can fit over the threaded part if you want to maybe lubricate with grease.
Perhaps not a bad idea, Cas. One could use a piece of bicycle tube for that ... just put it on with hose clamps, and it should stretch over the knuckle so no need to disassemble to get the hose on.

One should just make sure that it is also water tight. And if you want to be real fancy one can drill a hole and thread it to fit a grease nipple :)

Post by **Mud Dog** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:04 pm

Also true, but I wonder how neccessary it would all be ... remember the tie-rod works on exactly the same principle to adjust wheel alignment, and that has no boot or grease nipple. Perhaps nice to do and keep it lubricated so that the thread does'nt wear with the swivel action.

OK Cassie, so when do we make ours!?

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:35 pm

I've still got my original Toyota Torque Rod, just in case enol :shifty:

To make the Dirt Dog 2000 T-rod I decapitated a torque rod from a 85 SFA with Manual Steering Box.

It's Torque Rod was shorter than than mine by about 40mm.

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:57 am

Been thinking about the Marketing Andy; before all the Orders come flooding in and make me even Rich-er and you even more of a Top Dog:

Darn T-Bar is all I wanted to do was put an end to my Leaning Lux Problem :roll:

Problem is the whole world is against us man, it's a conspiracy :shifty: :shifty:

The whole "push and thrust" of the modern world is to...

"Like it Lean" with Lean Mean Machines enol... :roll:

We have to change the Mindset Manne......

Say NO to Larney Lean and YES to Lux-urious Level :!: :!:

The Dirt Dog T-Rod - "U've never seen a Lux not lean till you've been seen with a Dirt Dog T-Rod Beam"

Verstaan J

Hmmmm...

ThysdJ · Post by **ThysdJ** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:09 am

Dadz Toy BFI wrote:Been thinking about the Marketing Andy; before all the Orders come flooding in and make me even Rich-er and you even more of a Top Dog:

Darn T-Bar is all I wanted to do was put an end to my Leaning Lux Problem :roll:

Problem is the whole world is against us man, it's a conspiracy :shifty: :shifty:

The whole "push and thrust" of the modern world is to...

"Like it Lean" with Lean Mean Machines enol... :roll:

We have to change the Mindset Manne......

Say NO to Larney Lean and YES to Lux-urious Level :!: :!:

The Dirt Dog T-Rod - "U've never seen a Lux not lean till you've been seen with a Dirt Dog T-Rod Beam"

Verstaan J

Hmmmm...

You'll be able to sell a LOT of drugs with that marketing campaign...

Post by **Mud Dog** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:02 pm

This is'nt something I'd like to venture into for profit ... it's easy enough for someone with moderate welding skills to do themselves, and the idea is to be of assistance to anyone wanting to do the mod. Make your own additions / alterations to suit your preferences, and if you do it, let us know how it's working out.

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:29 pm

Moennie worri bru I'm sure the Dirt Dog T-rod is not the 1st Adjustable Torque Rod to hang on a Lux

Post by **CasKru** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:08 pm

I will make mine in the not to distant future. The bakkie is at the mechanic at the moment and will only go fetch it next week. After that I have to prep for the rock crawl. After that.... there will be some torque bar modification on the cards.... :)

Dadz Toy BFI · Post by **Dadz Toy BFI** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:21 pm

I'm still "on the fence" regarding the "necessity to swivel" , I jacked mine and played putting a leg-up on some tree stumps in the local common - I can't quite appreciate the need to have this property :? :? :?

Post by **Mud Dog** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:37 pm

Dadz Toy BFI wrote:I'm still "on the fence" regarding the "necessity to swivel" , I jacked mine and played putting a leg-up on some tree stumps in the local common - I can't quite appreciate the need to have this property :? :? :?

Loosen up one side before the more than originally intended axle flex forces one or both clamps to slip. If both start to slip it could alter the adjusted length. Trust me, just do it.